Kchama posted:The whole 'Dark Gods from another universe and also the mysterious data-being that can only manifest in select ways and don't give a poo poo about the laws of physics' deal still reminds me a lot of the Festum from Fafnir, who can come and attack more directly but it's also their only way of interacting with the universe at first - their physical forms are the result of the people's perception who first saw them, as they read minds effortlessly. And they can do such things as create a black hole-like wormhole in space and time to teleport around and also just plain make people stop existing. They can connect to anyone's minds who answers their psychic question "Are you there?", which most people do without even realizing it. See, it's interesting, because that's what my brain basically tells me the 'dark gods' are, that idea of something/s that can't quite figure out our universe and are mostly destructive without intention. This is basically what Chapter 47 will state, I think, and similar to what Holden basically describes as an immune response a few chapters ago. But then, I don't know how much that links to Tiamat's Wrath stuff with the game theory bit and the idea that they've been trying to tit-or-tat us, or even this novel where they're loving with ionic bonds and getting confused. It could be that my brain is trying to stitch together something that feels like it makes more sense. There's a part of me that really struggles with things like 'they can disrupt the speed of light', 'they can turn off consciousness', 'they can gently caress with ionic bonds', 'they're viewing our universe from the outside and rattling our windows' and 'they get confused when a ship goes through a gate and they think their physics-busting powers don't work on monkeys.' Before the last novel came out, I remember a theory where it was basically that the Builders had ascended to being 'above' our material reality/substrate whereas the Dark Gods were beings who were 'below' the substrate. The idea was somewhat similar, that the Builder tech is disruptive to them in ways that maybe the Builders could never conceive or were so far removed from that they didn't really care. I think the idea was some kind of quantum-scale lifeform or something? But when we're getting into "they're incomprehensible aliens from another incomprehensible universe" and/or "the dark gods are the other universe", I feel the story is getting so abstruse that it's hard remain engaged with it. To such an extent that, like, "the dark gods are the reality-breaking psychic remnants of all the dead species the Builders wiped out, and they want to be put to rest but can't destroy the infrastructure that houses them" feels like it'd make more sense, be more palatable, and fit with ideas the series raised.
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Apr 26, 2024 15:05
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:To such an extent that, like, "the dark gods are the reality-breaking psychic remnants of all the dead species the Builders wiped out, and they want to be put to rest but can't destroy the infrastructure that houses them" feels like it'd make more sense, be more palatable, and fit with ideas the series raised. This was my theory years and years ago about what was happening with the Goths; PriorMarcus posted:Does anyone have any theories on the goths?
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Apr 26, 2024 16:10
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PriorMarcus posted:This was my theory years and years ago about what was happening with the Goths; That is actually a much better idea of what I was vaguely thinking about, haha. It also indicates something that I think is a bad misfire in the ending of Falls which is that the last chapter is Naomi and Jim when it feels like it should be Miller and Holden.
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Apr 27, 2024 04:22
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I hope I'm not just making GBS threads up this thread, but I am still thoroughly lost by what this story is now supposed to be about...? Duarte is an evil dictator who is also Jesus - and not in the Gabriel Garcia Marquez delusional way. The inhuman light aliens are now somehow the first humans in the garden of Eden. We have set up a conflict so high stakes and so absurd - extradimensional aliens will destroy the laws of physics! - that there is no possible way that any human agency can resolve this conflict. Like, yeah, these novels have always been pulpy space adventures, but these plot devices seem to have metastasized.
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Apr 28, 2024 03:34
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Leviathan Falls, Chapters 44 - 47 "What the hell is this?" "This is the instrumentality which your father has initiated." Chapter Forty-Four: Teresa So, having just come across Duarte and Teresa saying, "Daddy?" we, of course, hop back to before then. Teresa has been aware that Holden is dying ever since they entered the station. She reminds him of her father. Interesting, all the stuff Holden thinks he was saying silently to Miller, he's been actually muttering to himself and it's freaking Teresa out. Holden has been veering between that and his normal self, and that's unsettling, too. Tanaka takes Teresa aside and basically says, look, Holden is compromised and he's losing functioning real fast: Leviathan Falls, Chapter 44 posted:“I’m not asking for your judgment, I’m informing you of mine,” Tanaka said. “At this point, I believe Holden may still be useful in finding and recovering the high consul, so I’m willing to take the risk associated with his condition. But I need you to understand that this will not always be the case.” It's about here where Holden opens his visor, then Teresa, and then Tanaka. We hop forward to "Daddy?" Duarte smiles at her and tells her everything is all right and that he dreamed too small and so on. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 44 posted:“This is why it will work. The meat, the matter, the rude clay of us. It’s hard to kill. The ones who came before were brilliant, but they were fragile. Genius made of tissue paper, and the chaos blew them apart. We can be the best of both now. . .” Leviathan Falls, Chapter 44 posted:“High Consul Duarte. My name is Colonel Aliana Tanaka. I have been given Omega status by Admiral Trejo and assigned the task of finding and recovering you.” Leviathan Falls, Chapter 44 posted:“We were doomed as soon as the gates appeared,” he said, but to her, not Tanaka. “If no one had taken responsibility, we would have bumbled along until the other ones came and killed us all. I saw that, and I did what I had to do. It was never for me. The empire was only a tool. It was a way to coordinate. To prepare for the war that was coming. The war in heaven.” Holden pulls Teresa away from Duarte. He likens him to Julie on Eros -- there's no way to tell now where Duarte and the ring station begin and end. Tanaka tells Teresa to get him to stop. Duarte basically says, hey, you can talk to me directly. He says that Tanaka was with him from the beginning and this is the extension of his beliefs, making humanity safe and whole and unified. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 44 posted:“Sir,” Tanaka said, “we can do this without mindfucking everyone. We can fight this war and still be human beings.” In a rage, Teresa slams into the black web holding Duarte and tries to rip him out of it. Duarte freaks out. Holden implores her not to damage the station. Duarte... Leviathan Falls, Chapter 44 posted:A force grabbed her like a vast, invisible hand and pulled her away. A million tiny, unreal needles bore into her flesh and began to rip her apart. Oh, she thought, my father’s going to kill me. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 44 posted:And then, the pain eased. Jim was beside her, and for a moment someone else was too, but she couldn’t see him. The glimmer in Jim’s eyes was brighter, and his skin had gone waxy with an eerie opalescence under it. His teeth were bared in raw, animal effort. It was coolest when it was freaky bio-horror space Lego. Duarte seemingly stops trying to vaporize Teresa. Because he starts summoning in a horde of sentinel robots... Chapter Forty-Five: Naomi Naomi is coordinating the battle outside the station. It's kinda weird that despite the swarming numbers of Duarte's super-coordinated fleet that annihilated the strongest ship Naomi had in their opening salvo, she's only being "slowly dismantled." Leviathan Falls, Chapter 45 posted:She imagined whole stations filled with silent bodies working in perfect coordination, the need for verbal communication replaced by the direct influence of brain on brain. A single hand with billions of fingers. If that was what humanity was now, there would never be another conversation, another misunderstanding or joke or lovely pop song. She tried to imagine what it would be like for a baby born into a world like that, not as an individual but an appendage that had never known itself as anything else. The fight continues. Naomi damns a Captain Melero to death. Alex shoots his railgun. It's a very bland battle, and I think part of that is because the Rocinante and the Falcon should be in pieces. Like, you'd think Duarte would be gunning for them hard, right? Or trying to use them as bargaining chips against Jim in the station? It's very reminiscent of the climax of the first novel where Miller has a great ending with Julie, while Holden just kind of bickers with a nameless redshirt because he needs something to do. Naomi calls up Elvi. Elvi's like, hey, the isolation chamber keeps Duarte's Instrumentality out. In the middle of a heated battle, Elvi and Naomi discuss sending the isolation chamber plans out via torpedo to Sol, Auberon, and Bara Goan. Laconia is not mentioned. So, I guess they're both fine with damning the population of the biggest colony (remember, there was an extensive project to resettle people on Laconia and turn it into the new capital world) to being Duarte's slaves because, uh, Duarte came from there, I guess? Because the Coreys aren't good at battle tactics, Naomi's fleet is being pulled away from the ring station for unclear reasons when you think you'd just hold position and overlap your point defences as best you can and hope for the best. Not that it matters, because the Whirlwind drops through the Laconia gate, an everyone fires upon it and accomplishes nothing. Then something happens. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 45 posted:The shout, when it came, literally defied description. It was an overpowering taste of mint or a vibrant purple or the shuddering sense of an orgasm without the pleasure. Her mind skipped and jumped, trying to make sense of something it had no capacity to understand, matching the signal to one sensation and then another and then another until she found herself on the float above her crash couch with no idea how much time had passed. And Naomi cries out as she realizes the Dark Gods are pushing through into reality, and coming straight for her. Chapter Forty-Six: Tanaka Back to Holden telling Teresa not to damage the station. Tanaka sees Holden save Teresa from Duarte's psychic dismemberment. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 46 posted:Jesus, you’re disappointed? You’re disappointed you didn’t just see that girl killed? a man’s voice said. What is wrong with you? How do you live with yourself? Leviathan Falls, Chapter 46 posted:The overwhelming sense, unspoken but clear, was pity. This was why she’s so broken. This is why she hurts people. This is why she only fucks men she can dominate, because she’s always so frightened. Look at all the things that were wrong with her. Like, I get it. Everyone magpies other works. Everyone takes inspiration. But I find it confusing when it feels this obvious an inspiration, yet it misses the point. In Evangelion, yes, it is awful to have the world sifting through your most private thoughts and neuroses -- but in Instrumentality (the TV version, at least) everyone comes out the other side whole and happy. It's basically an extremely intense, violating collective therapy session that creates a mental utopia. Meanwhile, in the Expanse, we're told it's an awful violation but all we keep seeing if people going like, hey, maybe don't be such a psycho. Tanaka tells the voices that she'll blow her brains out if they don't leave her alone. Tanaka decides her mission is impossible -- not just because Duarte is out of his mind, but she reckons Laconia doesn't exist anymore. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 46 posted:Which meant her Omega status was meaningless. She had better than it. She had freedom. She had nothing to stop her from doing whatever she saw fit except whoever had the balls to try and stop her. Holden shouts that Duarte isn't dead. The sentinels leap for her, but Holden is able to make them stop. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 46 posted:The sentinels twitched, jumping toward her and then falling back. Tools with two masters, bouncing between conflicting commands. Her last battle, and she was locking shields with James loving Holden. Tanaka begins punching the poo poo out of Duarte, and he flails at her. She punches through her ribs and crushes his heart -- and this is what broke the hive mind. There's an injury that Tanaka sustains that is a bit... uh, interesting in light of the rape metaphors so far. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 46 posted:Something pressed into her belly, squirming its way into her like a snake. Anyway, Tanaka is dying. Holden and Teresa are alive, staring at her. The sentinels are all still. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 46 posted:She wished she had a sidearm, so she could have put a round through both of them and watched them bleed out with her. She reached out her arm, index finger pointing forward, thumb raised, and sighted in on Holden’s face. Exeunt Tanaka. Chapter Forty-Seven: Jim Duarte is dead. Tanaka is dead. Miller confirms it. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 47 posted:Miller nodded. “Yeah, we’re the only ones here now. Which is good. I was switching those goons off a hundred times a second, and he kept setting them back on ‘murder everything.’” Holden wonders how they're going to get out. Miller says it's possible, but there's no ship left to exit on. Holden wonders why. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 47 posted:Miller tilted his head like he was hearing an unfamiliar noise. “You’re forgetting what got us here. All this is a complication on the real problem. When Colonel Friendly aced Duarte, she took his finger out of the dike. We’re safe in here. This place has already taken the worst the bad guys could dish out and stayed solid. But everyone else out there?” He shook his head. Holden wants to know how to stop them. Miller says he can take Duarte's place. Holden tells Teresa he'll take care of her, but he has to do something right now. He climbs into the space Duarte was in and lets the threads grab him. Holden isn't sure what to do, but Miller says the station wants to do what it is built to do, he just has to let it happen. Holden's awareness spreads out. Miller says that he's the Julie to the ring station's Eros. Holden spies the "enemy" about to devour Naomi, and he pushes it back. Still, it tries to get to Naomi like a fish swimming against a heavy current. Miller advises Holden to think bigger, and he does. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 47 posted:He pushed back, trying to bring the nature of the ring space back to true, but the pressure working against him was implacable. It was omnipresent, and anyplace he resisted it, it flowed around him. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 47 posted:Like a judo master, the ring station took the near-infinite power of an entire universe trying to crush it and pivoted, turning its strength against it. The other, older universe just outside the sphere of rings moved past him, and he could feel the pain he caused it. He could feel its hatred. The wound in its flesh that he was. Miller 2.0 says: Leviathan Falls, Chapter 47 posted:This structure is stealing energy from another place like a turbine slows down the wind just a little. And the things from the other place will never stop hating us for it. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 47 posted:“Nothing until now. See, now we’ve got a few billion murder-primates we can slot in where the airy-fairy angels of light used to be. I’m going to give us a better chance at that point.” Holden says he didn't go through all this just to be Duarte. Holden experiences a brief bit of awe, however, at thought of completing Duarte's work and uniting humanity as one. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 47 posted:Miller nodded like he was agreeing with something. Which maybe he was. “Nerving yourself up to kiss your big crush for the first time? Or getting pissed off because the apartment one over has a nicer view than yours? Playing with your grandbabies, or drinking beer with the assholes from work because going back to an empty house is too depressing? All the grimy, grubby bullshit that comes with being locked in your own head for a lifetime. That’s the sacrifice. That’s what you give up to get a place among the stars.” "It's not worth it." Holden says the builders shut the rings down but kept the station, hoping they could come back to it. Holden appears in the Rocinante's machine shop and talks to Amos. Holden tells him to talk to Naomi and get everyone to bail out of the ring space ASAP and stay there, permanently. Amos, being Amos, takes it all in stride. Amos asks Holden if he wants to talk to Naomi, and Holden says, no, we've already said everything we needed to say. Fantastic relationship they had. Holden tells Amos that Teresa is on her way, then returns his awareness to his body, and tells Teresa to run for it.
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Apr 28, 2024 03:39
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I hope I'm not just making GBS threads up this thread, but I am still thoroughly lost by what this story is now supposed to be about...? No, I think you're on the right track. I think Jeff VanderMeer made the point once that the ending of your SF/F novel must have some relation to the beginning of it. I'm not sure the ending of Leviathan Falls has much relevance to the beginning of the series whatsoever. The Expanse has always been a series about people. Finding the missing girl like a noir story, finding the missing kid, bringing people together in a scary place, colonist disputes, a jilted lover going on a rampage, etc. It might not always do it well, but I think this is what the series was basically about. The sci-fi elements were plot devices to put the characters in stressful situations: Eros riots, alien super soldiers, a ticking clock until extinction, colonist disputes and natural disasters. This is what I think people mean when they say the series isn't about the Romans, the Goths, the metaplot mysteries... But Leviathan Falls isn't really about people at all. Duarte and the Romans and the Goths have basically pushed everything out of the narrative. We spend half the novel on Teresa and her importance to Duarte, only for it to be proof that he's beyond saving. It feels like a bunch of plot devices snatched from other works and arranged together to just finish out the series. Instrumentality, the Illusive Man at the end of Mass Effect 3, Stargate, whatever. None of it feels like The Expanse, the gritty story about average joes trying to do the right thing. Like, Holden's developed superpowers and he's just been crucified for our sins -- who the gently caress thought that was ever going to happen? PriorMarcus' post outlines, I think, a version of the ending that fits more with VanderMeer's argument. Those bits have been running through the series from the beginning. I have trouble thinking anyone was hanging on the edge of their seat for this ending. Teresa hangs around on the Rocinante, then rolls snake eyes on her Persuasion skill check. Holden is a depressed lug who doses himself up on the protomeme because the player was getting bored. Tanaka is a weirdo who kills Duarte than dies. So, the climax of this series is a weird showdown in a place that hasn't really been relevant since the third novel (which is fine) where the reader's understanding of it seems to be inversely correlated to how much attention they've paid throughout the series, where it all depends on weird esoterica about light aliens and a lashing out alternate universe cosmic mind and a messiah who seems like he can actually do as he says but it's bad because humanity won't have lovely pop songs and conversations anymore even though it sure seems like people are maintaining their identities given they keep talking to Tanaka and judging her and whenever Duarte's voice shows up it's on a whole different level.
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Apr 28, 2024 03:59
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I hate Tanaka's final scene (and for that matter Duarte's) so much. It's pathetic. This is what you do with these characters? This is the absolute climax of the entire Laconia plot thread and arguably your whole series? It's so...grimy and ugly and small.
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Apr 28, 2024 04:48
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General Battuta posted:I hate Tanaka's final scene (and for that matter Duarte's) so much. It's pathetic. This is what you do with these characters? This is the absolute climax of the entire Laconia plot thread and arguably your whole series? It's so...grimy and ugly and small. I think there's a glimmer of something interesting in it. The stuff about murder-primates, the big act of humanity within this chapel of the angels being the act of murder... But, at the very least, I think it would have to be Holden doing it. It could even echo how he was kicked out of the navy for missing a punch at his commanding officer or something. But as it is, it's just empty. It gives me the feeling that Tanaka's only reason for inclusion was to prevent Holden from getting his hands dirty. Having the bad guy get killed by someone who was only really introduced in the final novel robs it of a lot of impact, I think. It doesn't help that Tanaka goes out from this novel about as angry and crazy as she entered it. Tanaka's 'hell yeah, off the leash, let's get real weird with it' moment doesn't do much for me because, well, she's been doing that the whole novel.
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Apr 28, 2024 05:41
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I think, going back to my idea of the Goth's being the gestalt intelligence of the previous protomolecule, making Duarte be possessed by them, rather than the Roman's, would sort out a lot of the ending. His goal, instead of instrumentality, could be to shut down all the gates for good, which they weren't able to do last time as they didn't have access to the substrate. This is bad because no matter what it condems millions to death in colonies that still aren't entirely self reliant and... oh.
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Apr 28, 2024 10:05
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I always was kind of reminded of Doom when it came to Holden's backstory, because it's literally the backstory for the Doom Guy and the explanation for why he's stuck on a backwater hellhole like Phobos - his commanding officer ordered him to fire on civilians and he beat the hell out of him instead.
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Apr 28, 2024 12:09
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General Battuta posted:I hate Tanaka's final scene (and for that matter Duarte's) so much. It's pathetic. This is what you do with these characters? This is the absolute climax of the entire Laconia plot thread and arguably your whole series? It's so...grimy and ugly and small. I mean, I can't justify Tanaka going out like the South Park kids' Fingerbang band, but Duarte the dictator dying in a grimy, ugly, and small way is pretty on par for the brand Think of Hitler shooting himself or Stalin dying in his own piss. Duarte trying to murder his own daughter would seem to come down pretty heavily on the Laconian ideals being complete bullshit and just being another space dictator, but I've bitched about the incoherence of that plotline enough without mocking the shoehorned Jesus allegory. Milkfred E. Moore posted:So, the climax of this series is a weird showdown in a place that hasn't really been relevant since the third novel (which is fine) where the reader's understanding of it seems to be inversely correlated to how much attention they've paid throughout the series, where it all depends on weird esoterica about light aliens and a lashing out alternate universe cosmic mind and a messiah who seems like he can actually do as he says but it's bad because humanity won't have lovely pop songs and conversations anymore even though it sure seems like people are maintaining their identities given they keep talking to Tanaka and judging her and whenever Duarte's voice shows up it's on a whole different level. I thought Duarte was able to mind control the battleships' crews to attack Naomi's fleet? From what you're describing here it sounds like less of a therapy session and more like Duarte is going to be the immortal dictator. Even if he doesn't mind control people he can still Avada Kedavra them to death. It also makes Holden's decision not to take up the real ultimate power more meaningful. Yeah, it's just a lovely version of the One Ring, but still, I take what I can get here.
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Apr 28, 2024 12:44
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I thought Duarte was able to mind control the battleships' crews to attack Naomi's fleet? From what you're describing here it sounds like less of a therapy session and more like Duarte is going to be the immortal dictator. Even if he doesn't mind control people he can still Avada Kedavra them to death. I don't think it's really clear. The people telling us Duarte is mind-controlling the ships to come attack them are also, coincidentally, the people opposed to Duarte. Duarte could be an immortal dictator of a mindless horde, or he could be more of a godhead directing a collective will. It's a fine distinction, sure, but I feel it is one. Similar to Instrumentality, Duarte seemingly has to talk people into "letting go" of their individuality and joining the collective. But if Duarte is the sole voice, the ultimate dictator, then who are the people showing up in Tanaka and Teresa's minds even now, when it seems like Duarte has sublimated everyone outside the ring space? The Whirlwind's captain snapping out of it could be regaining her individuality, or coming out of a fugue state, like when you're intensely working on something and realize six hours have passed, or waking up from a dream. That said, I use 'therapy session' as a bit of a shorthand more to illustrate how the intrusive psychic thoughts seem to be more about sharing empathy or attempting to recognize flaws, with Duarte's 'you will be assimilated' stuff being very different and very obvious because it's more like a command hallucination: give up, just let go, don't fight, etc.
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Apr 28, 2024 13:02
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I'm just gonna say thatTanaka posted:“Bang, motherfucker,” she said. The book has not earned the right to call back to Cowboy Bebop jesus
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Apr 28, 2024 14:14
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Strategic Tea posted:I'm just gonna say that It's such a stupid, grating last line from Tanaka. I can't believe we've fell this far. The first books were genuinely good, and this has moments of that still present but then... Tanaka posted:"Bang, motherfucker," she said.
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Apr 28, 2024 15:36
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