|
Kchama posted:Yeah but a lot of the Endless Meetings don't even involve Honor, it's just random groups of people having meetings, and a lot of the time it really isn't something we should just be told. You can see it as early as the first book where the big mystery of what is going on is revealed pretty much instantly by Weber cutting to a meeting of bad guys explaining their evil plans to each other. That is a Literary Technique called Dramatic Irony, wherein the reader/viewer/audience is made aware of something before the characters. Kchama, I think you might just be bad at reading comprehension.
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2023 01:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 17:21 |
|
|
Anshu posted:That is a Literary Technique called Dramatic Irony, wherein the reader/viewer/audience is made aware of something before the characters. Kchama, I think you might just be bad at reading comprehension. Just because you use a technique doesn't mean you used it well. Like, dramatic irony can be used very well, but just Weber doesn't use it well (and it is questionable if Weber is even attempting dramatic irony). There's very little excitement or mystery when Weber constantly undermines what's going to happen by specifically going over to the other side and having them lay out literally everything (especially laying out how screwed the other side is). Also, just because I don't like something Weber does, or how he does it, doesn't mean I can't read. Honestly? Don't return to this thread if you're going to post like that. Kchama fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Aug 28, 2023 |
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2023 01:55
|
|
|
I wasn't insulting you, I was being serious. In the past you appeared to have issues with understanding the relationship between Honor and Courvosier, and also didn't seem to readily understand what was meant when Weber employed synecdoche, referring to a character as having "Puck's face" to indicate that their expression was habitually puckish. (It's possible those were instances of deliberate, performative obtuseness, but if so I don't think I'm the only person who couldn't tell it was an act.) Then just now you seemed to claim that Weber ruined the mystery by pulling the curtain back for the reader. You're free to not care for that on grounds of poor execution or simple preference, of course, but the way you phrased it suggested to me that you were, in effect, complaining about getting a ham sandwich (mil-sf story) instead of a peanut butter sandwich (mystery story), when Weber never intended nor claimed to be making a peanut butter sandwich.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2023 06:59
|
|
|
Anshu posted:I wasn't insulting you, I was being serious. Oh my god get over yourself. It's one of the worst aspects of Weber's writing. If he did it deliberately, he hosed up.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2023 21:46
|
|
|
Anshu posted:I wasn't insulting you, I was being serious. Do you not realize that 'mystery' and 'tension' are things in a military story, too? The heroes going into unknown danger, without understanding the reader what their enemy wants or plans to do, are things that can happen? Weber doesn't have to be beholden to every writing technique just because some mil-scifi story somewhere else used it. But it seems like he can't NOT use it, even when it'd probably be a lot better for the reader to not be told every little bit and piece of the bad guy's plan. Just because you are potentially using a writing device doesn't mean, as stated, you are doing it well at all and that you might be better off doing it something else. As a note, 'Mystery' doesn't just mean 'murder mystery', but just not knowing something. And guess what, sometimes I like not knowing everything, especially when it comes to the danger the heroes are going to be into.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2023 22:37
|
|
|
It seems to me about half the people in this thread like these books as pulpy entertainment despite their flaws or think the series was good up to some point where it stopped being good, while the other half of this thread despise all of Weber's works and refuse to engage on any level other than hate-reading and looking down on anyone who doesn't share their opinion, and I'm just not sure that's a reconcilable difference
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2023 01:28
|
|
|
Psion posted:I've been thinking about trying to make an argument that the last Dahak book was Weber's creative peak and everything since then has been him reusing the ideas and concepts from that series but that's too much effort. So instead, please just agree with me and praise this idea I mean, yeah, sure, actually. The Safehold books are just the last Dahak Book's main plot extended and pared down and Weberized (The English conquest of Ireland but its for the best). The Mesan Alignment being this super uncrackable conspiracy is basically just the same thing as the Mister X conspiracy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2023 01:23
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:It seems to me about half the people in this thread like these books as pulpy entertainment despite their flaws or think the series was good up to some point where it stopped being good, while the other half of this thread despise all of Weber's works and refuse to engage on any level other than hate-reading and looking down on anyone who doesn't share their opinion, and I'm just not sure that's a reconcilable difference I chat with Gnoman about the books and have no problem with it. I don't hate them beyond oblivion. Out of what I specifically dislike about them, they aren't the worst or anything. The fact that I can tolerate even reading them at all speaks to that fact. I would not even attempt to hate-read, for example, John Ringo books, much less 'at all'.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2023 04:01
|
|
|
Fivemarks posted:I mean, yeah, sure, actually. The Safehold books are just the last Dahak Book's main plot extended and pared down and Weberized (The English conquest of Ireland but its for the best). The Mesan Alignment being this super uncrackable conspiracy is basically just the same thing as the Mister X conspiracy. To be fair, I do think the plot point of "The kids landed on a primitive/religious planet, then when they're found a book or two later they've lead a religious war to enlighten the world with nothing in between" did deserve some expansion. And I think since the Dahak book Weber has become better at creating and describing cool scenes and setups that are properly human scale. I love the thought he put into the holy city on Safehold basically being a bastion of space-age technology that no one understands. The technology provided to the upper tiers of the priests being handwaved away as holy artifacts and secrets, the enduring and seemingly impossible architecture reinforcing the faith of the dogmatic followers. It's all well thought out and I feel Weber's actually decent at world building like that. Down to the poor and impoverished huddling around the temple's heat vents in winter as the church grows more and more callous. But good lord did the latest Safehold book feel like the literary version of mashing "Next Turn" over and over again in Civ. Also Clyntahn (and LOL, don't tell me that name wasn't chosen because of Weber's personal political views) should have died ranting and screaming in uncomprehending rage at losing power. While it felt good at the moment to read about his faith being totally broken at the end once you think about it for five minutes you realize it dramatically cheapens his character in the last several books. He was supposed to be super convinced of his own superiority, to believe a couple of androids showing him a documentary on how all of Safehold has been bamboozled for a few hours would break him goes completely against human nature. Especially with what we've seen the last few years. The only way I could believe that scene in hindsight was if Clyntahn had been quietly drugged by Merlin and Merlin and basically brainwashed during their pre-execution visit.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2023 23:53
|
|
|
Alkydere posted:And I think since the Dahak book Weber has become better at creating and describing cool scenes and setups that are properly human scale. I love the thought he put into the holy city on Safehold basically being a bastion of space-age technology that no one understands. The technology provided to the upper tiers of the priests being handwaved away as holy artifacts and secrets, the enduring and seemingly impossible architecture reinforcing the faith of the dogmatic followers. It's all well thought out and I feel Weber's actually decent at world building like that. Down to the poor and impoverished huddling around the temple's heat vents in winter as the church grows more and more callous. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2023 02:38
|
|
|
I've been around the internet long enough that I just tune out the "hate-read and look down on" stuff, people going into GRRR-ANGEREY mode is really just background noise to me. So as one of the 'his stuff was good to a point, then it tanked' crowd, I think the thread will work for me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 19:26
|
|
|
Pantaloon Pontiff posted:I've been around the internet long enough that I just tune out the "hate-read and look down on" stuff, people going into GRRR-ANGEREY mode is really just background noise to me. So as one of the 'his stuff was good to a point, then it tanked' crowd, I think the thread will work for me. I will try to continue where I left off some point. I have been in bad health and super busy for a while, so...  .
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2023 22:58
|
|
|
I've been rereading the Harrington series for fun, I'm currently into At All Costs. I never noticed before exactly how often he refers to women who are supposed to be attractive as 'doll like' or 'child like,' how often he draws attention to the fact that people look pre-pubescent well into their adult lives, how much he draws attention to the age/visible age disparity in the Honor/Hamish/Emily relationship. She still looks like she's twenty something, he looks late-40s with grey hair, and Emily is described as wrinkled and frail and delicate. Sure, some of that is because of the accident and basically being a brain mounted on top of a hover chair, but still, Weber goes out of his way to describe how Hamish loves Emily, but is horny for Honor.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2023 18:56
|
|
|
TheCenturion posted:I've been rereading the Harrington series for fun, I'm currently into At All Costs. I just did a text search, and there's no such tendency. The vast majority of phrases containing the word "child" are referring to actual children, metaphorical children (things like "the latest child of Project Ghost Rider), or phrases like "Stop acting like a child". So far as I can find, there's only a handful of references to the word "doll" outside of as the root for "dollar", and those are usages like "I'm tired of playing her round-bottomed doll" (which, if you didn't know, is a kind of toy intended to be punched - it swings back up after being hit). I can find no reference to any person as "doll like". Many characters with real-world lifespans or shorter use terms like "children" to describe Manticorans and other prolong recipients, but that is clearly in the way that somebody pushing 40 would describe 18-20 year olds as "children". quote:how often he draws attention to the fact that people look pre-pubescent well into their adult lives Not prepubescent - there's an absolute "teenage awkwardness" element to prolong, and exactly one character (who everybody describes as looking unusually young) is convinced that she looks thirteen, but that's not the same thing.This is rapidly dropped once romantic encounters involving people in their 20s and 30s starts being discussed - starting with Shadow Of Saganimi. Before this point all the characters who mattered were well past that stage. My personal suspicion is that he never actually considered the implications of the prolonged adolescence until he had to directly deal with people that age.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2023 19:53
|
|
|
Hmm, I could have sworn I was reading those references left, right and center. But you're right; searching through Shadow of Saganami and At All Costs, I'm not finding them. Maybe I'm finally going senile in my old age. Maybe I'm just conflating Ringo and Goodkind. Maybe I'm conflating his penchant for tiny pregnant Asians. But as I keep reading, I'll make a note of things I find along those lines. And yeah, Honor of the Queen and Short Victorious War are absolutely him thinking about the logical extrapolations of everything he put in Basilisk station. Which is part of what makes the whole 'Solarian League still using autocannon point defense while Manticore has gone through five completely separate tactical doctrines in twenty years' thing not make a lot of sense.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2023 20:27
|
|
|
if there's one descriptor I think he uses too much it's petite. I don't know how often he really uses it and how much is me being primed to roll my eyes at it, though. still if I had to pick one, the actual ...word? ... I guess? he should banish from his vocabulary is "BuShips"
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2023 03:21
|
|
|
Wow, I remember reading this guy's books, a series called the War God's Own, when I was an adolescent. I guess I didn't have very discriminating taste and would put up with a lot for a bit of swordfighting. The protagonist was a sort of half-orc archetype where all the other fantastical people were racist to him, but he was basically 7'6" and physically unbeatable, and also the chosen champion of a god? poo poo was wild. I see there are 5 books and I only remember the first two, and at least the first 3 are free online, might leaf through them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2023 17:50
|
|
|
Psion posted:still if I had to pick one, the actual ...word? ... I guess? he should banish from his vocabulary is "BuShips" Why? BuShips and BuOrd are actual historical designations that make perfect sense for a future organization built along naval lines. It is also incredibly sensible for them to keep getting namedropped by senior officers in the middle of a shooting war.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2023 23:30
|
|
|
Gnoman posted:Why? BuShips and BuOrd are actual historical designations that make perfect sense for a future organization built along naval lines. It is also incredibly sensible for them to keep getting namedropped by senior officers in the middle of a shooting war. To be fair, I don't think I've ever heard anyone in real-life call the Bureau of Ships BuShips.
|
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2023 23:43
|
|
|
Kchama posted:To be fair, I don't think I've ever heard anyone in real-life call the Bureau of Ships BuShips. Not existing since 1966 might have something to do with that. It isn't something you're going to be regularly referencing outside of research.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 00:38
|
|
|
I read General Battuta's Mission of Honor Retold on the sufficient velocity forum, and that's the kind of book I wish Weber could still produce. For example, all of the characters seemed to have real motivations for what they were doing instead of being cardboard cutouts - having the Solarians believe they're morally right as the defenders of the Eridani Edict was a good change, and the Manticorians seem less obnoxious than in the originals. I remember one of the later Weber books spent several chapters on a big battle that could have been a single paragraph of 'Sollies show up, be arrogant, get missiled, surrender', but in this while the Manticorian Missile Magic dominated fights, the Solarian League had their own innovations and reading the battle was actually engaging again. Speaking of innovations, the various Solarian tech Battuta introduced was actually interesting in a way that the multiple steps of 'our missiles shoot farther and better' doesn't manage. And while he copied Weber's style, he cut down on the long, pointless digressions.Genghis Cohen posted:Wow, I remember reading this guy's books, a series called the War God's Own, when I was an adolescent. I guess I didn't have very discriminating taste and would put up with a lot for a bit of swordfighting. The protagonist was a sort of half-orc archetype where all the other fantastical people were racist to him, but he was basically 7'6" and physically unbeatable, and also the chosen champion of a god? poo poo was wild. I liked the first two (though I haven't reread them any time recently), then the third one went into full Weberbloat (it's about as long as the first two put together) and changed tone, so I never went back to the series. The first two were pretty fun and had some memorable scenes like Bazhel 'praying' for help by telling his god directly "stop with the flowery language, just tell me what to do and how to do it", but the leather bikini bisexual warrior women in the third book crossed over into a bit too much silliness for me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 01:25
|
|
|
Pantaloon Pontiff posted:I liked the first two (though I haven't reread them any time recently), then the third one went into full Weberbloat (it's about as long as the first two put together) and changed tone, so I never went back to the series. The first two were pretty fun and had some memorable scenes like Bazhel 'praying' for help by telling his god directly "stop with the flowery language, just tell me what to do and how to do it", but the leather bikini bisexual warrior women in the third book crossed over into a bit too much silliness for me. TBF, he's actually saying that the leather bikini is stupid, mostly impractical, misogynistic and so on
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 10:41
|
|
|
Psion posted:still if I had to pick one, the actual ...word? ... I guess? he should banish from his vocabulary is "BuShips" Hey, it's no Comnavsurflant (Commander, Naval Surface Force, Atlantic.) Pantaloon Pontiff posted:I read General Battuta's Mission of Honor Retold on the sufficient velocity forum, and that's the kind of book I wish Weber could still produce. For example, all of the characters seemed to have real motivations for what they were doing instead of being cardboard cutouts - having the Solarians believe they're morally right as the defenders of the Eridani Edict was a good change, and the Manticorians seem less obnoxious than in the originals. I remember one of the later Weber books spent several chapters on a big battle that could have been a single paragraph of 'Sollies show up, be arrogant, get missiled, surrender', but in this while the Manticorian Missile Magic dominated fights, the Solarian League had their own innovations and reading the battle was actually engaging again. Speaking of innovations, the various Solarian tech Battuta introduced was actually interesting in a way that the multiple steps of 'our missiles shoot farther and better' doesn't manage. And while he copied Weber's style, he cut down on the long, pointless digressions. Personally, my least favorite bits of Weberbloat are page-long step-by-step descriptions of treecats signing, but I seem to recall the first third or so of one of the later Saganami Island books feeling like somebody accidentally left a completely different manuscript on top of this one, and they just rolled with it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 14:06
|
|
|
Mano posted:TBF, he's actually saying that the leather bikini is stupid, mostly impractical, misogynistic and so on I don't recall him putting that anywhere in the text, if he's said it out-of-book it just reads as backpedaling to me. I distinctly remember one of the warrior women's leaders talking about how great the outfits are and talking about why they have kept up the leather bikini tradition for decades even though they could adopt any outfit they want as their uniform. "The bisexual warrior women in leather bikinis are themselves stupid and misogynistic and like wearing impractical 'armor'" isn't exactly a take that empowers women. TheCenturion posted:Personally, my least favorite bits of Weberbloat are page-long step-by-step descriptions of treecats signing, but I seem to recall the first third or so of one of the later Saganami Island books feeling like somebody accidentally left a completely different manuscript on top of this one, and they just rolled with it. I know at least one book copied-and-pasted chapters wholesale from another book, is that what you're thinking of? But yeah, I didn't see the point of the in-depth digression on treecat sign language. The treecats in general seem to be treated with kid gloves a bit too much, I can't really see all of the other star nations deciding 'oh, Manticore has mind-reading pets? yeah, we're cool with them bringing what are one-sided mind probes to any and every diplomatic meeting'. OTOH that's not exactly a Weberism, a lot of science fiction has people (including high-ranking diplomats and politicians who have a lot of secrets and a lot of influence) unconcerned by telepathy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 14:00
|
|
|
Pantaloon Pontiff posted:
The copying of chapters occurred in a couple of books - his reasoning is that once the series started branching it was impossible to ensure that the books would be read in the "correct" order, and those chapters tended to provide very important context. They also help fix the relative timeline in place, though there's certainly better ways to do that. The treecat situation is a bit more nuanced than you're implying. When they're first allowed into diplomatic meetings, the people sending that information are basically desperate for anything that would convince Manticore they're telling the truth. Later on, they're in full "dump all our most guarded secrets on the table" mode and are relying on having a fuzzy detector for finding mind-controlled assassins.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 14:22
|
|
|
Gnoman posted:The treecat situation is a bit more nuanced than you're implying. When they're first allowed into diplomatic meetings, the people sending that information are basically desperate for anything that would convince Manticore they're telling the truth. Later on, they're in full "dump all our most guarded secrets on the table" mode and are relying on having a fuzzy detector for finding mind-controlled assassins. You're talking entirely about Haven, but IIRC the Solarians, Andermani, Graysons, also don't appear to care about allowing Manticorian mind probes to hang around their diplomats and officers at all. Not that they go along with it or don't believe it, they don't seem to register any objection whatsoever. Yeah, Haven is desperate to save themselves from genocide at the hands of Mad Queen Beth so will grasp at any straw, but the others also just have a 'ho, hum' reaction to the news. (I'm aware that Weber doesn't think of Elizabeth as an insane, genocidal tyrant, but that's really how she acted in regards to Haven).
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 15:31
|
|
|
Grayson isn't going to balk at the presence of treecats, when one of them is a planetary hero. The Andermani are described as ambivalent, and I don't recall any face-to-face meetings involving Solarians and treecats.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 15:51
|
|
|
People below the highest rungs of power in other nations probably aren't aware of the full extent of the treecats' telepathy. And since Honor eventually mutated into a telepath herself they can't exactly kick her out of meetings.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 16:30
|
|
|
Gnoman posted:Grayson isn't going to balk at the presence of treecats, when one of them is a planetary hero. The Andermani are described as ambivalent, and I don't recall any face-to-face meetings involving Solarians and treecats. Grayson isn't going to balk at anything Manticore does because they stopped being written as an independent nation and are instead just an adjunct to Manticore who follow the Queen's lead without hesitation. The premise that all of the Steadholders would accept being subject to mind probes on Manticore's whim just because a tree cat did a good deed years ago does not ring true to me at all, especially since it's been made clear that a lot of them do not like the changes that have been ushered in and many of them have (or had before the series changed) their own secret plots and plans. And "Ambivalent" is almost exactly not the attitude I'd expect the empire who's just had high nobles assassinated by an apparently mind-controlled person to take towards having a new, unknown form of telepath hanging around their people probing them. At one point they made a big point of searching Honor and her armsmen for weapons in a long scene even though they trusted her, I don't see those same people being cool with mind probers hanging out around their people. IIRC Manticore brings treecats around captured Solarian officers at some point, and there's no objection that mind probing prisoners violates the Deneb Accords (whether it would actually violate the Deneb Accords isn't the point, just that there's no claim that it does). The idea that everyone is cool with Manticorian Mind Probes because Manticorians are the Good Guys doesn't work for me. Everyone other than Haven (who are doing anything to avoid being the subjects of genocide for the Queen's Madness) should have strong objections to treecats around their people now that the secret of their abilities are out.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 16:39
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:People below the highest rungs of power in other nations probably aren't aware of the full extent of the treecats' telepathy. And since Honor eventually mutated into a telepath herself they can't exactly kick her out of meetings. The "true extent" is that they can read emotions. They're NOT "mind probes".
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 17:42
|
|
|
Gnoman posted:The "true extent" is that they can read emotions. They're NOT "mind probes". It evolves over the books from 'basic emotional states' to 'can't transcribe your inner monologue, but pretty drat close.' Like in At All Costs when Nimitz and Honor can identify not only that her flag lieutenant is horrified, but what he's horrified about; being not in control of his own body. Or how Honor can directly extrapolate, if not sense directly, things like 'I'm going to politely listen to what you're saying, then ignore it completely' rather than 'doubt,' which isn't really an emotion. Hell, even 'deception' isn't an emotion. I think the idea is 'it's hard to describe what empathy/telepathy is to people who don't actually have it, so we use imprecise words and terminology.' Like 'go describe the color green to a person born blind.'
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 18:10
|
|
|
Gnoman posted:Why? BuShips and BuOrd are actual historical designations that make perfect sense for a future organization built along naval lines. It is also incredibly sensible for them to keep getting namedropped by senior officers in the middle of a shooting war. First and most simply, it sounds ridiculous, op. say it out loud. Second, and independent of that, I don't agree that it makes perfect sense. The RMN is the RN in Space, drawing from the age of sail except with spaceships, right? So using an obsolete USN organizational term (as of when it was written) and one that didn't even exist (as of the historical era he's drawing from) does not make perfect sense to me. Big deal? No. Sloppy though? Yeah, feels that way. Using the RN analogue would be more appropriate in-universe and out, imo. It's probably some director under the Second Sea Lord, I sure couldn't tell you. Now, if it turns out the RN had a Bureau of Ships in 1812, then I withdraw my objection and will be happy to have learned something. i'll even admit in writing I was wrong! you can't lose! say it with me though: Boooooo-ships. it's just a Weberism I'd like to see go away, nothing more than that. I think your research into the origin of the term (which, seriously, thanks for looking up) makes it even more obvious how silly it is to keep popping up in, I think three series/books now?  Psion fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Sep 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 02:42
|
|
|
Gnoman posted:The copying of chapters occurred in a couple of books - his reasoning is that once the series started branching it was impossible to ensure that the books would be read in the "correct" order, and those chapters tended to provide very important context. They also help fix the relative timeline in place, though there's certainly better ways to do that. The issue with the copy and paste is when he does stuff like copy chapters in back to back mainline books (even if one had a little bit more added to it).
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2023 08:19
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:People below the highest rungs of power in other nations probably aren't aware of the full extent of the treecats' telepathy. That supports what I'm saying - all they know for sure is that the treecats are confirmed to have some kind of mind reading ability including telepathy with each other, that's known and confirmed by Manticore and (IIRC) independent scientists. I would expect that people who don't have treecats and experts of their own to reassure them about the abilities to assume that it's much more of a threat than it really is, and for people who don't like Manticore to seize on the idea that forcing someone to submit to mind reading is a violation of rights (whether POW rights or general human rights) and that casually mind reading people at a diplomatic meeting is a severe violation of protocol. I think it would be even easier for people to accept that treecats do more than just some minor emotional sensing since there's also confirmed evidence of nanobots that can be surreptitiously implanted into someone then mind control them to murder a person they care about. The tech for '5G towers and vaccines' mind control actually exists in the Honorverse, so being concerned about a creature that can at least read emotions being able to do more is a significant concern. Gnoman posted:The "true extent" is that they can read emotions. They're NOT "mind probes". According to what the Manticorians say, but they have reason to downplay the extent of their ability so they can keep bringing them into a position to scan diplomats and POWs. Even if we ignore what TheCenturion pointed out about the later developments, someone in-world doesn't have the benefit of being able to read chapters written from the omniscient viewpoint - they just have what little information has been released in-world, and have reason to be suspicious that there's more to the story than 'oh, it's no big deal'. Note that I was not asserting that they ARE mind probes, just that a significant number of people would BELIEVE they are mind probes and even more people would go along with the idea that they are for personal gain. Psion posted:say it with me though: Boooooo-ships. I mentally pronounce it as rhyming with pew-ships, like the laser sound or a church bench, since that's closer to how I say bureau. So I don't think it's that silly-sounding, but I agree that it is out of place.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2023 14:20
|
|
|
I would have avoided all ambiguity and made the name better by simply calling it CoolShips. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2023 18:32
|
|
|
Pantaloon Pontiff posted:I liked the first two (though I haven't reread them any time recently), then the third one went into full Weberbloat (it's about as long as the first two put together) and changed tone, so I never went back to the series. The first two were pretty fun and had some memorable scenes like Bazhel 'praying' for help by telling his god directly "stop with the flowery language, just tell me what to do and how to do it", but the leather bikini bisexual warrior women in the third book crossed over into a bit too much silliness for me. I have skim-read the first three in the last couple of days and am now into the fourth. I think you're right that the third one was a tonal difference. The series does get kind of bloated with recalling previous backstories and in this fourth one especially, little minor bad guys and political opponents keep being introduced. A real profusion of minor characters who are all quite cookie-cutter and don't add anything unique. I think (and fourteen year old me would definitely have thought) that same-y swordfights were more engaging than same-y political intrigues. The one thing I find really, outstandingly grating about these books is the awful banter. It's ceaseless. Every single scene featuring sympathetic characters interacting has a sort of preamble where they josh each other - you're thick, you're short, etc - and then one of them threatens the other with physical harm unless they shut it, and then the other decides to stop talking. It's such a weird way to show the characters affection for each other and it happens again and again every single day of their lives. It's driving me mad. It's kind of a weird window into the author's worldview? Like the other big re-used "joke" the characters make is one says something about telling the other's wife that they won't be staying for dinner/her cooking isn't very good/we passed through and didn't let the kids visit and the first chap says some variant of 'oh I'm not brave enough for that'. It's just so weird! Like he thinks best bros are constantly mocking each other (sort of true) but to the point where actually they would have a serious fight, and then backing off, then doing the exact same routine again the next day. And all marriages (of good guys) are loving and supportive, which is nice, but exist in a very gender-roled sort of way where the wife supports everything the husband does but he still jokes about not wanting to piss her off. Happy wife, happy life, am I right guys? Basically Weber's portrayal of interpersonal relationships is clearly well-intentioned but also the most annoying thing about his writing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2023 12:10
|
|
|
Genghis Cohen posted:
Honestly, the part where a bunch of 60, 70, 80 year olds are constantly saying 'you can safely presume that to be, oh, about a 1000 percent understatement' which gets a big laugh from everybody present is a bit odd. As is constant references to 'I'd say he likes that about as much as a treecat likes celery.'
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2023 16:20
|
|
|
Pantaloon Pontiff posted:I mentally pronounce it as rhyming with pew-ships, like the laser sound or a church bench, since that's closer to how I say bureau. So I don't think it's that silly-sounding, but I agree that it is out of place. that's probably a more reasonable pronunciation. I have to say, when I read it originally I assumed it was some RN term so gnoman's explanation of the actual origin making it worse is really funny though it showing up in Mamelukes as both the most and least plausible use (simultaneously) was, at the time, annoying. in hindsight, that's also really drat funny. so it's not all bad! Psion fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Oct 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2023 20:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 17:21 |
|
|
Doesn't really count as horror, or maybe it does, but in any case: Whalefall is pretty good.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2023 16:11
|
|
