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GW made points as annoying as possible in 8th edition. I can only think they were trying to push for power level and changed course at the last minute. All of the points were at the back of the books, broken out into minute details. You had to personally calculate the basic points costs of units based on their weapons and wargear. Like a land raider had a base cost for its chassis and then you had to add two twin lascannons and a twin heavy bolter. It was bizarre and made me break one of my cardinal rules. I started writing in my books.  9th was better, you only had to worry about upgrades or particular weapons that were good enough to cost extra. They still put them in the backs of the books for some reason so I continued scribbling them into the unit entries. And now we basically have power level as points. I'm not really a fan, but I always liked tinkering with weapons and upgrades. 30k, Titanicus, Old World, etc. are all right there for people like me so I'm not going to rant about it.
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May 4, 2024 18:47
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Lostconfused posted:And they have some points granularity per model for some units, but not all of them. This one bugs me the most because there's tons of edge cases now where you can't actually use the models you've paid for. For example: I own 9 meganobz, and would have liked to split them into units of 5+4 that can still fit into transports while having a character attached. But arbitrarily there's no option for pay the right points for a unit of 4; you can only bring them as 2/3/5/6. Similarly, let's say I have 20 WE Jakhals available but my list only has enough points free for 18-19 bodies. My options are to either bring 10 of them, or pull another unit I've painted to fit all 20. Because World Eaters are a faction with a smaller and more elite roster to pick from, that dropped unit would inevitably have to be something worth much more than Jakhals. I'd settle just for being able to bring 10/15/20, as at least that means some of the stuff I've spent time working on would get to see the table.
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May 4, 2024 19:00
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Hot take: units being inflexible Tetris pieces is better for balance precisely because if Zerkers go up 10 points per 5 you can't just chop off a few Jakhals or two meaningless plasma pistols and have basically the same list.
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May 4, 2024 19:15
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Well that's the problem isn't it? There are armies where you can do that, and the game designers are fiddling with minutia without addressing the larger issue.
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May 4, 2024 19:34
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While we're complaining about game design stuff, I also don't like how they're designing around keywords. Looking at all the new Ork detachments and it's still only the index one that covers all the models you could have, while every other one only applies to a limited set of one or two keywords. And then there's the Guard Index detachment which is based on the faction keyword, but also the entire army has to be balanced around the regiment keyword because of the reinforcements stratagem and how orders work.
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May 4, 2024 19:42
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Eej posted:Hot take: units being inflexible Tetris pieces is better for balance precisely because if Zerkers go up 10 points per 5 you can't just chop off a few Jakhals or two meaningless plasma pistols and have basically the same list. I imagine part of the issue is that Warhammer isn't a video game. If I'm playing on, say, Tabletop Simulator, and my list stops working between quarters, I can grumble about it and copy-paste some JPEGs to rearrange these big inflexible tetris pieces. But if that happens in physical 40k, I'd need to buy, assemble, and paint a whole new set of models, and some people are a lot quicker and better at that than others. I think in general that's where a lot of debate on how 40k is handling rules these days come from. It's aiming for the better balance and more rigorous updates we expect in the modern gaming space, but is doing it for a medium that's inherently slower on both the company and player ends.
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May 4, 2024 20:08
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The Bee posted:I imagine part of the issue is that Warhammer isn't a video game. If I'm playing on, say, Tabletop Simulator, and my list stops working between quarters, I can grumble about it and copy-paste some JPEGs to rearrange these big inflexible tetris pieces. But if that happens in physical 40k, I'd need to buy, assemble, and paint a whole new set of models, and some people are a lot quicker and better at that than others. I agree, and I also think that it is inherently difficult to have the balance and rigorous updates when you have a fundamental shift every 3 years. Which, while a long time in the video game world, is relatively shorter when it can take a better part of a year for someone to get their army into ready condition, and depending on when in the 3 year cycle their army launched, they might not even be able to finish prior to the new edition.
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May 4, 2024 20:14
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IncredibleIgloo posted:I agree, and I also think that it is inherently difficult to have the balance and rigorous updates when you have a fundamental shift every 3 years. Which, while a long time in the video game world, is relatively shorter when it can take a better part of a year for someone to get their army into ready condition, and depending on when in the 3 year cycle their army launched, they might not even be able to finish prior to the new edition. I get they want regular edition cycles to keep people buying, but I can see why it makes things harder at the same time. I'm hoping that with both 10th 40k and what sounds like 4th AoS establishing some much firmer foundations, the cycles aren't as volatile as they've been from here on out. 40k having two indexhammer-based full restart editions in the span of just three edition cycles is kinda crazy!
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May 4, 2024 20:17
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The Bee posted:I imagine part of the issue is that Warhammer isn't a video game. If I'm playing on, say, Tabletop Simulator, and my list stops working between quarters, I can grumble about it and copy-paste some JPEGs to rearrange these big inflexible tetris pieces. But if that happens in physical 40k, I'd need to buy, assemble, and paint a whole new set of models, and some people are a lot quicker and better at that than others. Yeah but like, running 17 cultists instead of 20 doesn't really change anything but cutting an entire unit to make room for others does. Also it makes you buy more boxes which is win/win for GW! Lostconfused posted:Well that's the problem isn't it? There are armies where you can do that, and the game designers are fiddling with minutia without addressing the larger issue. Who even has this level of granularity with their points anyway?
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May 4, 2024 20:32
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Eej posted:Who even has this level of granularity with their points anyway? Starfleet Command?
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May 4, 2024 20:38
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Eej posted:Yeah but like, running 17 cultists instead of 20 doesn't really change anything but cutting an entire unit to make room for others does. Also it makes you buy more boxes which is win/win for GW! You're completely correct from a gameplay level. I just meant from a logistics level that what's right for gameplay can be a major pain in the rear end for tabletop.
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May 4, 2024 20:39
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Z the IVth posted:Starfleet Command? I meant in 10th edition Warhammer 40k!!!
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May 4, 2024 20:40
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StashAugustine posted:units should just have a leader, a heavy weapon, maybe a specialist, and a bunch of generic guys Special/heavy weapons are now being balanced by how many you can take on a unit instead of the cost, which would be fine if the options were all equally good
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May 4, 2024 20:42
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Well what's close to my heart is guard where you have three battleline units that have a range of 55-60-65 points. Than you have a specific character attachment that goes with them that's either 60 or 65. Then you can have a heavy weapon squad that's 60 points, or have it as part of the 60 point battleline unit. Sisters of Silence come in points of 40 or 50 now. Black Templars had a slightly better tank for 5 points, now 10, but you could also take a regular marine tank if you needed to save 5 points somewhere. It's not perfect control over your points, but at least several of the armies I looked at can easily move 5 or 10 points around by just saying their one filler unit is just the version that costs 10 points less.
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May 4, 2024 20:43
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Eej posted:Hot take: units being inflexible Tetris pieces is better for balance precisely because if Zerkers go up 10 points per 5 you can't just chop off a few Jakhals or two meaningless plasma pistols and have basically the same list. I've always thought it was loving stupid that people would take weird numbered squads to squeeze in poo poo somewhere else
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May 4, 2024 20:45
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Who would have thought that my 10pt allowance in a casual game with a points system that’s much less flexible than previous editions would be so controversial. I regret making my post and perhaps I should have just asked Reddit for advice instead
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May 4, 2024 21:05
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Improbable Lobster posted:I've always thought it was loving stupid that people would take weird numbered squads to squeeze in poo poo somewhere else I liked running my blighlords in a squad of 7 alongside my plague marines 
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May 4, 2024 21:22
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Lostconfused posted:Well what's close to my heart is guard where you have three battleline units that have a range of 55-60-65 points. Than you have a specific character attachment that goes with them that's either 60 or 65. Then you can have a heavy weapon squad that's 60 points, or have it as part of the 60 point battleline unit. Funnily enough you don't actually have that option with Black Templars if you use a BT detachment. It specifically forbids you from using the regular variants. Otherwise, SM have a pretty big problem that all their units are big chunks of points that can't be fiddled with forcing you to make actual choices to fit what you want. idk about Guard or Custodes though
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May 4, 2024 21:26
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Nothing But Hate posted:I usually play at 1000-1500pts but he wants to play 2000 points so I thought I would oblige him this time but I struggled to build a list that was close enough to the limit without going over so I asked for the 10 point allowance. Oh I misunderstood, I thought your opponent had a list that was 2010pts and told you to build a 2010pts list to match. I wouldn't bat an eye at a casual game between friends where you just needed those extra points to get an army on the table. Sounds like you're all set to have a good time. If someone I don't know told me they had a 2010pts list I'd assume it was very powerful as they couldn't bare to lose that last unit to bring it down to 2000pts.
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May 4, 2024 22:33
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 the stompa boyz box is gigantic
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May 4, 2024 22:42
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My 2k World Eaters list has a permanent 55 points left over because special characters can't get enhancements and nothing in the codex is that cheap. I really whish I could just add a few extra zerkers for my walking mob, or maybe buy an extra CP or something.
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May 4, 2024 23:11
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Black Templars help: They are a tempo-setting pressure army. Their game plan is to stage behind terrain and then attack when you get on points. So don’t get on points unless you can kill something by doing so, go after their redeemer as a priority, and disrupt their backfield with deep strikes if possible. Basically don’t just walk into the mid board and hold an objective thinking you’ll survive. Everything in range of charges will die, so try to have something you can throw at them after they charge (they’re not THAT durable). If you can bait them with skirmishes like assault intercessors and then slam them with something after they’re in the open, that is ideal. Eej posted:Hot take: units being inflexible Tetris pieces is better for balance precisely because if Zerkers go up 10 points per 5 you can't just chop off a few Jakhals or two meaningless plasma pistols and have basically the same list. This is correct. It also means modeling is less stressful; if a reasonable person would only take the unit with all the good options, then every opponent you play will assume that’s what you’re doing unless you have wildly similar-looking units doing very different options. So just model what you want; it’s awesome.
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May 4, 2024 23:32
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The Deleter posted:So with the Ork codex being apparently good and memories of George Dellapina's Speed Freeks in my head*, I gotta ask - where would you start collecting a vehicle based Speed Freeks/Kult of Speed army? The combat patrol options don't really appeal to me but it does seem to be excruciating collecting one Boomdakka Snazzwagon at a time. The previous Combat Patrol will also almost certainly still be around if you do want the stuff in it since it's only just been replaced. I was actually able to find the Killdakka Warband new in a local games store last year (at a deep discount since they were trying to move it) so it might be worth seeing if you can find that somewhere.
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May 4, 2024 23:53
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I’ll never forget the incredibly poo poo eating grin they had when they announced ‘power levels are going away’
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May 4, 2024 23:59
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If you're building Kult of Speed for funsies then just buy whatever vehicles you like. If you're trying to play it to win you still want Boyz or Nobz in Trukks to fight on objectives or actually hurt things.Nothing But Hate posted:I have a game scheduled tomorrow and any advice on how to take on Black Templars would be much appreciated. I’ve played this guy a couple of times now and he absolutely destroys me every time. We’re playing 2000pts with a 10pt over allowance, I’m not sure exactly what he’s bringing but he generally runs: I forgot to come back to this but you have too few scary vehicles for Ironstorm to really benefit. You really want to up that number to like 3-4 of some combo of Redemptors and RepEx's for maximum value out of Mercy is Weakness. You might actually just be better off playing Gladius and finding the models to Counts As Boltstorm Aggressors with your Biologis so you can delete some idiots who left themselves open to bolters.
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May 5, 2024 00:23
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