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Bloody hell and all devils therein. I'm getting the strong feeling that you've got the bottom line of your analysis writted beforehand, but I'll still engage you assuming I am wrong. You may claim "I'm not proposing a tit for tat approach to rape" (which, incidentally, would make for a great thread title), yet you wrote: quote:Martin has no qualms about implicitly or explicitly writing acts of sexual violence against women in ASOIF, but he seems rather shy about doing the same for men in situations where it would be perfectly in line with the world he's created. [...] This is straight-up logically equivalent to "Were Martin not such a misogynist, males would get raped more in ASoIaF". Which is strikingly stupid in all the ways that have already been pointed out. quote:consider how you yourself are characterizing the comparative worth of masculinity and femininity based on how you interpretation of Martin. Is Martin really suggesting that the only way for women to be strong, not be victims and have agency is to symbolically become men? That's kinda hosed up. Actually, he might be suggesting that, lol. If Group A is in power and Group B is oppressed, and a few Group B characters are trying to break the established system and acquire power, of course they're going to try and play by the same rules as Group A. The strong female characters in ASoIaF aren't primarily fighting for the rights of all women - it would be nonsensical to have suffragettes in ASoIaF - they're fighting for themselves. Each and every one of the examples you mentioned would have happily agreed to sign a contract that gave them the individual right to hold land and fight, leaving every other woman in the same shackles as before. They do not "want to become men", they want to have the aristocratic (Cersei, Asha) and martial (Arya, Brienne) rights that highborn men have.
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Sep 15, 2011 10:37
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Tater_tot posted:To say that he writes something because he is staying true to a real world counterpart doesn't hold water because he regularly deviates from that counterpart when it suits his needs. I'm not sure this is fair. Very little of ASOIF is without antecedent; the series is designed as a deviation -- or deconstruction -- from the fantasy tradition, and draws its strength from subverting the genre by injecting realistic elements. I definitely agree there needs to be more male rape in the series, however.
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Sep 15, 2011 11:17
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NihilCredo posted:If Group A is in power and Group B is oppressed, and a few Group B characters are trying to break the established system and acquire power, of course they're going to try and play by the same rules as Group A. The strong female characters in ASoIaF aren't primarily fighting for the rights of all women - it would be nonsensical to have suffragettes in ASoIaF - they're fighting for themselves. Each and every one of the examples you mentioned would have happily agreed to sign a contract that gave them the individual right to hold land and fight, leaving every other woman in the same shackles as before. They do not "want to become men", they want to have the aristocratic (Cersei, Asha) and martial (Arya, Brienne) rights that highborn men have. Deviating from the other female characters, Sansa is also emulating a man, but one who does not do very "masculine" things. He is a plotter, something commonly associated with people in weaker positions in society. In fact, Littlefinger was one of the weakest of the political class. It's no coincidence that his name implies that he has a small penis and is thus less masculine than other lords. But by being a man and holding lands, he was able to rise in society. Despite having a more prominent name than Littlefinger, Sansa would have never been able to rise in society except through marriage. Other plotters in the series are Cersei (a woman), Varys (a eunuch), and Tyrion (a dwarf). Daenerys engages in many plots because she is consistently much less powerful than the forces opposing her. They each have varying degrees of success at this, but the point is that they must engage in subterfuge because they can't compete directly in the male-dominated "game of thrones" that revolves primarily around how big your sword is.
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Sep 15, 2011 11:31
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So... Do we talk about delicate citrus pastries next and then how Ned would beat John in a fight but Kahl Drogo would own both of them at once or does it go rape, food, rape, swords?
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Sep 15, 2011 13:07
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builds character posted:So... Do we talk about delicate citrus pastries next and then how Ned would beat John in a fight but Kahl Drogo would own both of them at once or does it go rape, food, rape, swords? I think a serious discussion of the merits of lemon cake as opposed to key lime pie is in order.
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Sep 15, 2011 14:27
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vseslav.botkin posted:I definitely agree there needs to be more male rape in the series, however. Welp, we've crossed the threshold. Might be time to bail out of this thread.
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Sep 15, 2011 14:35
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:Welp, we've crossed the threshold. Might be time to bail out of this thread. I don't think it's quite that time yet. There's actually reasoned discussion still happening.
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Sep 15, 2011 16:54
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There's plenty of male rape in these books, but like the homosexuality it isn't stated outright. It's illogical to criticize Martin by arguing that the society he created would include lots of male on male sexual assault and when the same society would do that but it would not be spoken of so eagerly. Let's not forget that the last book included male prostitutes (who were slaves, and just as lacking in agency as the female prostitutes present throughout the books) being drowned in the ocean. They spent their lives being effectively raped and then ended up drowned for something someone else forced them to do. There's mention of a septon being used as a girl (or words to that effect), Whorsebane, and the lot of it. Isn't there a minor character on the Wall that ended up there after fighting back against an attempted rape? The nature of the characters and the society is such that there's no doubt lots of sexual violence against men and boys going on, but it isn't discussed as freely or advertised as sexual violence against women and girls. Also, the point of view characters are almost universally the types of people who are not going to participate in the actual rape anyway, the male ones are less likely to be raped, and the rape they do hear about is going to be in the form of hearsay and secondhand accounts. It wouldn't be out of character to learn that, say, Gregor Clegane didn't discriminate by gender in his post battle rapings, but neither he nor the people talking about him (which is the information we, the reader, receive from a point-of-view character) are going to trumpet that. Given that some sexual violence against males filters its way into the perspectives of the characters whose heads we're riding in, we can infer, based on what we know of the setting, that there's much, much more. So you see, while there may not be rape parity (raparity? parapity?) there are entirely adequate levels of implied male rape in a society where, bizarrely, female rape is much more likely to come up in conversation.
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Sep 15, 2011 17:31
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All you guys who are saying "welp, don't worry, males do in fact get raped plenty" probably mean well, but you're being unwittingly harmful by implicitly accepting as valid such an absurd, twisted standard of... I don't even know of what. Gender-blindness? Artistic morality? I can't quite recreate the sort of bizarre train of thought that would end up in such a place. But anyway: if a stranger pops up telling you that you are a flawed person because you never wear red boxer briefs, you don't respond with "well, as a matter of fact I do have a few of those in my drawers"; rather, you explain them that they're drawing a dumb and crazy connection.
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Sep 15, 2011 18:04
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Yeah trying to defend the books as non-misogynistic by bringing up vague mentions of male-on-male sexual violence is just ridiculous. You can make a lot of better arguments for why the books aren't misogynistic, and people have.
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Sep 15, 2011 23:59
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Honestly I could do with less female-perspective chapters in the books. They always give me the sense that Martin is trying too hard to come across as a "progressive" writer. "The setting is misogynistic but look out fantasy world because some of these kitties have CLAWS!!! rawr!! also Asha is tough and wears pants and likes it rough  " It's very eyeroll-worthy and I'd honestly rather just have less women than put up with all the faux-grrlpower type bullshit.
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Sep 16, 2011 00:55
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We could also all stop spergin out about whether the made-up horrifyingly gritty fantasy world is sufficiently in tune with our progressive sensibilities.
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Sep 16, 2011 01:00
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:We could also all stop spergin out about whether the made-up horrifyingly gritty fantasy world is sufficiently in tune with our progressive sensibilities. Besides, it really IS a concern that media portrays women in a certain negative way. It's not really relevant to ASOIAF, but it is a worthwhile debate to have sometimes.
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Sep 16, 2011 01:05
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Quantify! posted:It's interesting to examine stuff seriously even if it's a silly fantasy work. Gotta develop those critical thinking skills, and analyzing real literature is boring. I would say ASOIAF portrays women in a better light than most modern societies do. Be glad ASOIAF doesn't have sharia law.
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Sep 16, 2011 01:13
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Quantify! posted:Besides, it really IS a concern that media portrays women in a certain negative way. It's not really relevant to ASOIAF, but it is a worthwhile debate to have sometimes. Oh, for sure, not denying that. But I think there's a big difference between SoIaF and reality TV or sitcoms or other stuff that's more of a direct extension of, and feedback into, our own culture. Which I think is probably something like what you were saying, anyway.
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Sep 16, 2011 01:14
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:Oh, for sure, not denying that. But I think there's a big difference between SoIaF and reality TV or sitcoms or other stuff that's more of a direct extension of, and feedback into, our own culture. Which I think is probably something like what you were saying, anyway.
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Sep 16, 2011 01:19
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It is at least better than Wheel of Time where nearly every chapter is "Men are like this  but Women are like this  "
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Sep 16, 2011 01:22
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Azure_Horizon posted:I would say ASOIAF portrays women in a better light than most modern societies do. Be glad ASOIAF doesn't have sharia law. Also, men are actually punished pretty harshly for "unlawful" rape (exiled to the Wall, ouch!).
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Sep 16, 2011 01:41
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YES bread posted:Also, men are actually punished pretty harshly for "unlawful" rape (exiled to the Wall, ouch!).
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Sep 16, 2011 02:04
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Quantify! posted:That just shows Martin's bias against cold climates. Do you think it's a coincidence he lives in Santa Fe? As a reader who lives in a cold climate it's really annoying to see his views about the cold being bad pop up in every chapter. I feel like living in Winterfell/The North is akin to living in like, Alaska or the Northwest Territories. So I guess I can kind of understand why he treats it so badly. Then again, everyone I know who has read the series would LOVE to join the Night's Watch.
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Sep 16, 2011 02:06
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Ross posted:It is at least better than Wheel of Time Well yeah but what isn't better than Wheel of Time though? Anyway -- so what actually happened to Brienne after all? I'm kinda confused about that, is she dead or got zombiefied? Or is she alive?
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Sep 16, 2011 02:20
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the kawaiiest posted:Well yeah but what isn't better than Wheel of Time though? I think the current consensus is that immediately prior to being hanged ("Brienne said a word"), she told Zombie Catelyn Stark that she would capture Jaime Lannister for her and was released to go do so. edit: Also Brienne is Azor Ahai or whoever! Ross fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Sep 16, 2011 |
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Sep 16, 2011 02:28
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the kawaiiest posted:Well yeah but what isn't better than Wheel of Time though? She said a word, the Brotherhood let her go as long as she brings Jaime back. We really dont know. What her overall plans are. I have a feeling by the time Tyrion and Arya get back to Westeros everyone they want to kill will already be dead.
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Sep 16, 2011 02:35
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YES bread posted:Also, men are actually punished pretty harshly for "unlawful" rape (exiled to the Wall, ouch!). Either that or castration.
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Sep 16, 2011 02:39
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Ross posted:I think the current consensus is that immediately prior to being hanged ("Brienne said a word"), she told Zombie Catelyn Stark that she would capture Jaime Lannister for her and was released to go do so.
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Sep 16, 2011 02:39
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the kawaiiest posted:Yeah that makes sense. I really hope she's still alive because she's one of my favorite characters. Oh she's definitely alive, she appears alive explicitly after the "hanging".
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Sep 16, 2011 02:40
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Ross posted:Oh she's definitely alive, she appears alive explicitly after the "hanging". 
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Sep 16, 2011 02:44
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Brienne taking Jaime to Lady Stoneheart was the most crushing thing in the book. You know it's not going to end well.
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Sep 16, 2011 02:52
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As opposed to everything else that's gonna end in buttercups and puppies?
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Sep 16, 2011 03:13
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rejutka posted:As opposed to everything else that's gonna end in buttercups and puppies? Fluffy, adorable, horrifically murdered puppies.
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Sep 16, 2011 03:37
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Quantify! posted:Brienne taking Jaime to Lady Stoneheart was the most crushing thing in the book. You know it's not going to end well. 
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Sep 16, 2011 03:39
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hailthefish posted:Fluffy, adorable, horrifically murdered puppies. Served in a herb crust with neeps. Or are they? *cliffhanger*
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Sep 16, 2011 03:41
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the kawaiiest posted:Yeah but maybe she'll forgive them and it'll all be okay and they'll get married and have ugly babies and No, Jaime is going to kill Brienne by plunging his sword into her heart. He will then pick up Oathkeeper, a red blade. He's already been reborn among smoke and salt (the blood and smoke from the fire when his hand was severed and the wound cauterized) and woken dragons out of stone (when he got an erection over Brienne, which was previously about as likely as a statue coming to life). Jaime is Azor Ahai.
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Sep 16, 2011 03:44
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Ambiguatron posted:No, Jaime is going to kill Brienne by plunging his sword into her heart. He will then pick up Oathkeeper, a red blade. He's already been reborn among smoke and salt (the blood and smoke from the fire when his hand was severed and the wound cauterized) and woken dragons out of stone (when he got an erection over Brienne, which was previously about as likely as a statue coming to life). This is by far the best interpretation of that prophecy.
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Sep 16, 2011 04:00
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Ambiguatron posted:No, Jaime is going to kill Brienne by plunging his sword into her heart. He will then pick up Oathkeeper, a red blade. He's already been reborn among smoke and salt (the blood and smoke from the fire when his hand was severed and the wound cauterized) and woken dragons out of stone (when he got an erection over Brienne, which was previously about as likely as a statue coming to life). Holy poo poo
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Sep 16, 2011 04:01
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Ambiguatron posted:No, Jaime is going to kill Brienne by plunging his sword into her heart. He will then pick up Oathkeeper, a red blade. He's already been reborn among smoke and salt (the blood and smoke from the fire when his hand was severed and the wound cauterized) and woken dragons out of stone (when he got an erection over Brienne, which was previously about as likely as a statue coming to life). This, but he's also going to stab Catelyn in the heart with Oathkeeper (and thereby have Valyrian Steel wake from her "stone" heart).
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Sep 16, 2011 04:07
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Ambiguatron posted:No, Jaime is going to kill Brienne by plunging his sword into her heart. He will then pick up Oathkeeper, a red blade. He's already been reborn among smoke and salt (the blood and smoke from the fire when his hand was severed and the wound cauterized) and woken dragons out of stone (when he got an erection over Brienne, which was previously about as likely as a statue coming to life). The erection part made me laugh really, really loudly.
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Sep 16, 2011 04:07
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HarveyVdarski posted:What are they up to now though? The dude talks to Sam at the end of Feast and he's all like YO MAN THE MAESTERS ARE TRYING TO CREATE A CERTAIN KIND OF WORLD. They are the all male bene gesserit, Dany is a dragonrider of Pern, and Connington is Thomas Covenant.
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Sep 16, 2011 04:23
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Ambiguatron posted:No, Jaime is going to kill Brienne by plunging his sword into her heart. He will then pick up Oathkeeper, a red blade. He's already been reborn among smoke and salt (the blood and smoke from the fire when his hand was severed and the wound cauterized) and woken dragons out of stone (when he got an erection over Brienne, which was previously about as likely as a statue coming to life). Best Azor Ahai to date. This would actually be unironically loving amazing.
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Sep 16, 2011 04:26
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Quantify! posted:That just shows Martin's bias against cold climates. Do you think it's a coincidence he lives in Santa Fe? As a reader who lives in a cold climate it's really annoying to see his views about the cold being bad pop up in every chapter. As a former New Mexican native, I'm totally gonna 'sperg out here and say that Santa Fe is in the rocky mountains at an altitude higher than Denver. It does get very cold in the winter time with plenty of temperatures bellow freezing in the fall/winter seasons. Oh, and it gets dry too. Hope you don't have any eczema!
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Sep 16, 2011 08:55
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