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To add a perspective to the discussion, I read GotM about a year ago, and while I liked it somewhat, enough things rubbed me the wrong way about it (mostly how the last hundred pages felt like a protracted DBZ battle) that I didn't pick up Deadhouse Gates until two weeks ago, and just finished it today. Goddamn does it ever get better. I don't think i've ever read a fantasy novel with an ending that made me so angry, and so looking forward to the next book. I'm in love with series and i'm definitely looking forward to reading through it and figuring out what the gently caress is going on. A couple spoiler-y questions: 1. What was the whole deal with Panek's backstory, the T'lan Imass were crucifying children or something? Or did it go back to that clutch of magic Duiker stumbled across where he got caught up in the one tribe murdering the other one? 2. What the gently caress are Forkrul Assail? Don't answer if it's a giant, multi-book spoiler. 3. In the epilogue, were those gremlin things collecting Duiker's body, and are they going to resurrect him? Just a yes/no - I just would hate for that to be the last we see of him. He deserves awesome revenge. edit: one other question, what was the deal with the guys who come out of the sky while Kulp and the gang's boat is stuck in that Warren? They give Stormy a sword, then they fly into the sky and it's implied one of them is sacrificing themselves for all eternity to get them out or something? Goddamn, looking back there was a LOT I did not follow in this book. Popular Human fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Sep 27, 2011 |
# ? Sep 27, 2011 22:35 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 04:50 |
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Metonymy posted:Well, there's obviously something in the series that people enjoy and respond to, so I'm not trying to give a blanket "gently caress Eriksson and this series". To me, what he seems to say in that interview is that he isn't using a 'guiding' element to move the reader along - something that is common with plenty of experienced fantasy writers, let alone new ones. Wheel of Time is filled with so may convenient little things that just happen to point all of the characters and the reader in the direction they want/need to go (because, you know, ta'veren). Instead, he's basically putting the reader into a world where people know about as much as you might expect them to know, and leaves them to piece it together. Yeah, as you say it's something that flows together over the course of many books (and is significantly better the second time through) but once it all starts coming together, it's magnificent. Also: 02-6611-0142-1's observation that Erikson "expects you've read all his books at all times" is quite insightful. GotM is significantly improved if you've read all of the other books, and the same goes for every book. This is a bit of a unique property for a series, IMO. Reading ADWD doesn't really make ASOS any better or clearer (if anything, maybe it makes it more depressing ), but reading, eg, Reaper's Gale really affects what you get out of, eg, House of Chains.
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# ? Sep 27, 2011 22:46 |
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Habibi posted:I find this interesting, because it's what I get out of that interview. He says he tries to confound readers' expectations, which is not at all the same thing as 'not being committed to providing any context or revealing the narrative in a manner that is conducive to understanding what's going on.' Fact is that he does provide the context and narrative (in fact, given just how many details there are that eventually all (or mostly) link up, saying that he's not committed to doing this makes little sense). What he isn't committed to doing, though, is going out of his way to explain exactly what is going on, which is where I think your point about "intentionally obfuscating..." falls flat. He's not intentionally obfuscating. He's just not intentionally clarifying. Gene Wolfe does this incredibly well. Reading Shadow of the Torturer after finishing Citadel of the Autarch is like reading a whole new book.
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# ? Sep 27, 2011 22:51 |
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Popular Human posted:To add a perspective to the discussion, I read GotM about a year ago, and while I liked it somewhat, enough things rubbed me the wrong way about it (mostly how the last hundred pages felt like a protracted DBZ battle) that I didn't pick up Deadhouse Gates until two weeks ago, and just finished it today. 1- I actually don't remember anything about that character. 2- You will have to wait for that one. 3- You really want to know? Yes 4- They were T'lan Imass and they were hunting someone. Who that someone is will become apparent books later. And so is the ship they were on. The guy that sacrifices himself, closes the wound the crazy mage made in the Warren. Then Kulp uses his powers to get them out, and wake up an undead dragon in the process.
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# ? Sep 27, 2011 22:55 |
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Electronico6 posted:1- I actually don't remember anything about that character. That makes a lot more sense, thanks. I guess part of my confusion stems from the fact that I don't really understand what the T'lan Imass are, but I figure that's part of the fun and will be explained later. RE: #1, he's the creepy kid who rides around on Apt, and apparently can see Cotillion even when he's shrouded in his shadow warren or whatever. Cote asks him where he came from, and he tells him about how he was crucified and Cotillion actually acts a little bummed out, which was surprising.
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# ? Sep 27, 2011 23:06 |
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Popular Human posted:Goddamn does it ever get better. quote:1. What was the whole deal with Panek's backstory, the T'lan Imass were crucifying children or something? Or did it go back to that clutch of magic Duiker stumbled across where he got caught up in the one tribe murdering the other one? quote:2. What the gently caress are Forkrul Assail? Don't answer if it's a giant, multi-book spoiler. quote:3. In the epilogue, were those gremlin things collecting Duiker's body, and are they going to resurrect him? Just a yes/no - I just would hate for that to be the last we see of him. He deserves awesome revenge. quote:edit: one other question, what was the deal with the guys who come out of the sky while Kulp and the gang's boat is stuck in that Warren? They give Stormy a sword, then they fly into the sky and it's implied one of them is sacrificing themselves for all eternity to get them out or something? quote:Goddamn, looking back there was a LOT I did not follow in this book.
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# ? Sep 27, 2011 23:06 |
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Popular Human posted:That makes a lot more sense, thanks. I guess part of my confusion stems from the fact that I don't really understand what the T'lan Imass are, but I figure that's part of the fun and will be explained later. Well the T'lan Imass have been explained, not well though. You had Tool in the first book. The basic gist is that there was this race formerly known as the Imass, and they used to be slaves to the Jaghut, and one day the Imass said "gently caress you assholes!" and started a war with the Jaghut. At the end of the war the Imass formed a pact between themselves, they would never rest again until the world was rid of Tyrants(Jaghut). OF course this did not go according to plan. As for the child Well Habbi already answer. But does the Child actually see Cotillion when he's shrouded or is Cotillion not shrouded at all.
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# ? Sep 27, 2011 23:31 |
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Electronico6 posted:Well the T'lan Imass have been explained, not well though. You had Tool in the first book. The basic gist is that there was this race formerly known as the Imass, and they used to be slaves to the Jaghut, and one day the Imass said "gently caress you assholes!" and started a war with the Jaghut. At the end of the war the Imass formed a pact between themselves, they would never rest again until the world was rid of Tyrants(Jaghut). OF course this did not go according to plan.
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# ? Sep 27, 2011 23:49 |
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Habibi posted:Didn't the Imass only start poo poo when the Jaghut tyrants arose in the first place, though? Yes the story is that the Jaghut Tyrants came to them and acted as gods and enslaved them all, after some time some of the Imass started to realize that the Jaghut tyrants were kinda of a fraud. But for the T'lan Imass every Jaghut is a Tyrant.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 00:51 |
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Habibi posted:Didn't the Imass only start poo poo when the Jaghut tyrants arose in the first place, though? I'm pretty sure (whole series spoilers)a bunch of/all Imass got dominated by a Jaghut tyrant and but believed it was a god so willingly submitted to it. The other Jaghut eventually noticed and killed or imprisoned the tyrant since they are totally opposed to that kind of thing. The Imass realized they had been duped and decided nobody would ever be truly free if a tyrant might pop up again. Of course the only way they could be 100% sure no new tyrants would arise was to make sure there were no more Jaghut. So the entire race of Imass decided to go to war with the Jaghut. Of course the Jaghut don't really fight and are tremendously powerful so after the Imass made a nuisance of themselves for a few generations the Jaghut basically told them to gently caress off and caused an ice age and called glaciers and poo poo to keep the Imass from bothering them. The Imass were basically beaten, they couldn't cross the glaciers and their habitats were destroyed. But instead of dying or just making peace they instead invoked the ritual that made them immortal undead so they could wage war forever.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 01:18 |
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LtSmash posted:God drat, re-reading all that again made me remember how much of bad asses the Imasses were. That's some cold hard unyielding poo poo right there.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 02:08 |
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noob question: how do you pronounce "D'ivers"?
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 02:37 |
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Diverse.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 03:02 |
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Divers.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 03:37 |
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Duh-eevers.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 03:48 |
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Dee-vairss Btw when I posted the new blurb for the upcoming ice novel, it's because the limited edition is on preorder at pspublishing. RotCG was 3 months early there and this one might be early there too, if you need a malazan fix. Edit: Ł95 Fuzzy Mammal fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Sep 28, 2011 |
# ? Sep 28, 2011 03:50 |
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:God drat, re-reading all that again made me remember how much of bad asses the Imasses were. That's some cold hard unyielding poo poo right there. Yeah, the Imass are a serious contender for the title of most cold unrelenting hardasses, and there are plenty of other hardasses in the series. (series spoilers) I think in most other fantasy books they would probably qualify as the ancient evil. They chose to start a generations long war of genocide as vengeance for the actions of a few Jaghut who were abhorrent to the rest. Facing defeat, or rather not being able to advance, they turned themselves into immortal undead and resumed their genocide. But not only are they unrelenting dicks to the Jaghut they give no fucks for anyone. Human First Empire messing with the beast ritual? Don't intervene or warn them just kill everyone after the fact (and by there own admission only 'many' humans went mad, not all). Other T'lan Imass damaged too much to keep fighting? No release from immortality, but if their death lead to killing Jaghut they got their skull put somewhere with a view, forever.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 07:47 |
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LtSmash posted:Yeah, the Imass are a serious contender for the title of most cold unrelenting hardasses, and there are plenty of other hardasses in the series. (series spoilers) I think in most other fantasy books they would probably qualify as the ancient evil. They chose to start a generations long war of genocide as vengeance for the actions of a few Jaghut who were abhorrent to the rest. Facing defeat, or rather not being able to advance, they turned themselves into immortal undead and resumed their genocide. This made me remember a certain quote, and I would love if anyone remembered which book and chapter it was from so I can reread the whole passage, which basically was an T'lan Imass talking back against someone saying how the last time someone hosed with their people they genocided them. And I think in any other book they would qualify as an ancient evil. Powerful ancient undeads? Check. Indiscriminate murderers of children and woman? Check. GENOCIDE? Check. What's cool is how Erikson somehow makes us sympathizes with the plight of these deadly murderers to a certain degree. In some other book the reader would probably do a fist pump at the part where Silverfox fucks them over.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 09:38 |
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Popular Human posted:2. What the gently caress are Forkrul Assail? Don't answer if it's a giant, multi-book spoiler. Mentioned and discussed at least twice i GotM, between Tool and Lorn. But, as the appendix says, it is an extinct non-human founding race, like Imass, Jaghuts and K'Chain Che'Malle. Electronico6 posted:4- They were T'lan Imass and they were hunting someone. Who that someone is will become apparent books later. And so is the ship they were on. The guy that sacrifices himself, closes the wound the crazy mage made in the Warren. Then Kulp uses his powers to get them out, and wake up an undead dragon in the process. The dragon was merely passing through there for its own purposes. It was only "used" in the process. And you'll see another example of "healing the wound" in MoI's Prologue.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 11:48 |
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That scene in Deadhouse Gates on the boat gets explained piece by piece in books 4, 5 and 7 if I recall correctly. You're supposed to be thinking "what the hell?" but little bits of context appear eventually.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 13:52 |
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:My take on Erikson was always that he expects you've read all his books at all times. When you read book 1, he expects you're read books 2-10, kinda. I love this comment, and it's exactly how it is. It was a wild ride but I enjoyed every page of it, but it's not for everyone.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 18:38 |
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:That scene in Deadhouse Gates on the boat gets explained piece by piece in books 4, 5 and 7 if I recall correctly. You're supposed to be thinking "what the hell?" but little bits of context appear eventually. It's sort of like a microcosm of the series as a whole.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 18:43 |
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:(T'lan Imass/series spoilers) Whats even better is arguably the malazans would be the evil empire. Kellanvad was basically a mad wizard who unleashed immortal genocidal undead to conquer nearby kingdoms and then used the subjugated people to build armies to relentlessly expand to everywhere they could. Even when he was mortal he had a reputation of being insane because everything was plots within plots. He was only overthrown because he lusted for more power (warren of shadow + the azath) and allowed his treacherous underlings to consolidate power in his absence. Laseen isn't exactly a kind ruler considering a lot of the mayhem was planned. Of course there are plenty of other groups that are even worse. But Erikson makes us sympathize with them too. The Tiste Edur commit tons of atrocities but you have to be pretty heartless to hate them by the end of it. Hell Kallor burned an entire continent down to spite the gods who would take his kingdom away but who didn't feel differently when you read his parts in the later books?
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 19:02 |
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LtSmash posted:Whats even better is arguably the malazans would be the evil empire. Kellanvad was basically a mad wizard who unleashed immortal genocidal undead to conquer nearby kingdoms and then used the subjugated people to build armies to relentlessly expand to everywhere they could. Even when he was mortal he had a reputation of being insane because everything was plots within plots. He was only overthrown because he lusted for more power (warren of shadow + the azath) and allowed his treacherous underlings to consolidate power in his absence. Laseen isn't exactly a kind ruler considering a lot of the mayhem was planned. I always was under the impression that Kellanved and Cotillion ascended as a means to an end. Or did they just want that power, explored the Azath, figured out what the hell was happening in the world and then decided to do something about it? (Which was basically freeing the crippled god, not for gain, but out of compassion?)
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 19:18 |
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LtSmash posted:Whats even better is arguably the malazans would be the evil empire. Kellanvad was basically a mad wizard who unleashed immortal genocidal undead to conquer nearby kingdoms and then used the subjugated people to build armies to relentlessly expand to everywhere they could. Even when he was mortal he had a reputation of being insane because everything was plots within plots. He was only overthrown because he lusted for more power (warren of shadow + the azath) and allowed his treacherous underlings to consolidate power in his absence. Laseen isn't exactly a kind ruler considering a lot of the mayhem was planned. To be fair, he only used the T'lan Imass once and never again. We never got the reasons why from the man himself but other people concluded the T'lan were just too brutally effective to use as weapons of war. Also, I didn't read Knives of Night but I thought Kellanvad and Dancer let themselves get overthrown because they didn't want to be seen possessing too many thrones at once especially since they figured out how to get the shadow throne.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 19:28 |
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Lyer posted:I always was under the impression that Kellanved and Cotillion ascended as a means to an end. Or did they just want that power, explored the Azath, figured out what the hell was happening in the world and then decided to do something about it? (Which was basically freeing the crippled god, not for gain, but out of compassion?) Who the gently caress knows with those two. They started out as minor criminals so their first goals were probably to expand in the underworld of Malaz Isle so they needed some power. But who knows when it turned from furthering their own ends to something bigger? When they first went into the deadhouse or in their adventures after that or when they started to expand as a kingdom or when they left the empire in Laseen's hands and really got going with the ascension thing or was that all still just to increase their own power and it was only after they became gods that they figured out the whole crippled god thing? In GotM it still seems like Kellanved/Dancer are working against Laseen, what with possessing Apsalar to use against Laseen. And do we really know that freeing the crippled god was entirely selfless? Knowing Kellanved there are further plans and they needed to prevent the various calamities in TCG so they would have a world to scheme in. Vanilla Mint Ice posted:And yeah they did let themselves get overthrown to hide what they were really up to but the evil emperor getting overthrown by evil underlings would have added to the Malazans being the bad guys in another series. At the very least they knowingly let an incompetent megalomaniac take control of a large part of the world.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 19:58 |
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LtSmash posted:The T'lan Imass were used sparingly but more than just once. We know there was also the massacre at Aren. Apsalar claims it was Laseen but the T'lan Imass weren't bound to her. Dujek claims that it was Kellanved who did it to weaken Laseen's hold on the empire so chaos would follow once they ascended.
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# ? Sep 28, 2011 20:13 |
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:Also, I didn't read Knives of Night but I thought Kellanvad and Dancer let themselves get overthrown because they didn't want to be seen possessing too many thrones at once especially since they figured out how to get the shadow throne. I'm pretty sure Cotillion confirms this with Crokus/Cutter in House of Chains. He pretty much admits Shadowthrone and him knew that taking control of both the Throne of Shadow and the mortal Malazan empire would cause both ascendants and other mortals to attack them on both fronts.
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# ? Sep 29, 2011 08:32 |
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IncendiaC posted:I'm pretty sure Cotillion confirms this with Crokus/Cutter in House of Chains. He pretty much admits Shadowthrone and him knew that taking control of both the Throne of Shadow and the mortal Malazan empire would cause both ascendants and other mortals to attack them on both fronts. Yeah, pretty sure you're right. And I'm also pretty sure that they explored the Azath before ascending and that's when they figured all this poo poo out and realized they wanted to/had to do something about all the crap that was going on. So they planned their ascendency accordingly at that point
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# ? Sep 29, 2011 13:49 |
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I don't know if anyone is interested here, but I'm going through some ABSURD mind bending theories by linking some of Erikson's ideas in the series (in particular the last lines of House of Chains), with Constructionism, Kabbalah, Castaneda's work, "Gödel, Escher, Bach", von Foerster and Niklas Luhmann. It's crazy because you come out with theories that "explain" what goes on in the Malazan world, only that these theories are actually theories made to explain "ours". It's as if I'm saying: Malazan mythology is well alive and REAL. (think a bit of David Foster Wallace + Wittgenstein, The Broom of The System, where Lenore Beadsman, a character, was "aware" of being a fictional character in the book. And where DFW core purpose was to examine if it was actually possible to make a factual distinction between fictional and real world, which also is essentially Wittgenstein pushed to extreme radicalism)
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# ? Sep 29, 2011 18:32 |
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Abalieno posted:I don't know if anyone is interested here, but I'm going through some ABSURD mind bending theories by linking some of Erikson's ideas in the series (in particular the last lines of House of Chains), with Constructionism, Kabbalah, Castaneda's work, "Gödel, Escher, Bach", von Foerster and Niklas Luhmann. Geez mate I only came for the zombie dinosaurs with swords for arms. Either way Kruppe would be a character that seems(or is) aware that it's life is part of a story of fiction. So much that he gets to narrate a part of it, in a very omnipresent way.
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# ? Sep 29, 2011 18:48 |
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I managed to pick up a copy of Deadhouse Gates at a local bookstore, liking it a ton. I liked Gardens of the Moon a lot too, but it took me about three restarts to give it a fair shot. The plot is still a little confusing but not nearly as bad as it was in the first book, and I actually like being in the dark about a lot of the people and events. Also there are badasses everywhere which is always great to have in any fantasy series!
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# ? Sep 29, 2011 19:19 |
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My actual theory is: it's not that Malazan world is "more real" than what we assume. It's that our own real world is actually fictional, and, being so, the Malazan world is a "more clear" representation of it since the deceit is made obvious. The Malazan world tells us: "You look at me and laugh at how absurd and fancy and unbelievable is this fictional world, but yours, the world you call 'real', is equally fictional and maybe even more flimsy and unstable."
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# ? Sep 29, 2011 19:47 |
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The Ninth Layer posted:I managed to pick up a copy of Deadhouse Gates at a local bookstore, liking it a ton. I liked Gardens of the Moon a lot too, but it took me about three restarts to give it a fair shot. The plot is still a little confusing but not nearly as bad as it was in the first book, and I actually like being in the dark about a lot of the people and events. Also there are badasses everywhere which is always great to have in any fantasy series! I see so many people complaining about this last bit - the amount of badasses everywhere - and I might too, if it wasn't tempered by the fact that even the strongest badass can (and has) been brought down by a weak mortal with very little badass about him.
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# ? Sep 29, 2011 20:02 |
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Habibi posted:I see so many people complaining about this last bit - the amount of badasses everywhere - and I might too, if it wasn't tempered by the fact that even the strongest badass can (and has) been brought down by a weak mortal with very little badass about him. I love how in most of the books, there's always a character or two that's built up to be some hardass, only to get the poo poo stomped out of them pretty easily.
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# ? Sep 29, 2011 20:19 |
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Lyer posted:I love how in most of the books, there's always a character or two that's built up to be some hardass, only to get the poo poo stomped out of them pretty easily. The T'lan Imass that Stonny's kid befriends in TTH (I think?) is the best for this. All of this ominous foreshadowing and renegade warrior on hidden paths stuff, obsessed with vengeance and Chomp. Into the Azath he goes. Should have stayed on that path, amigo.
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# ? Sep 29, 2011 20:27 |
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LtSmash posted:Of course there are plenty of other groups that are even worse. But Erikson makes us sympathize with them too. The Tiste Edur commit tons of atrocities but you have to be pretty heartless to hate them by the end of it. Hell Kallor burned an entire continent down to spite the gods who would take his kingdom away but who didn't feel differently when you read his parts in the later books? There's a fairly standard thing in fantasy where you just have everybody be a bunch of dicks in an attempt to be dark and edgy. Kind of like you have knights in shining armor but underneath they're all monsters. Erikson did a good job of inverting this, where instead you'd have to people covered in mud and stabbing the poo poo out of each other but under all the dirt they're human and they have families and reasons for being there.
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# ? Sep 29, 2011 22:39 |
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NovemberMike posted:There's a fairly standard thing in fantasy where you just have everybody be a bunch of dicks in an attempt to be dark and edgy. Kind of like you have knights in shining armor but underneath they're all monsters. Erikson did a good job of inverting this, where instead you'd have to people covered in mud and stabbing the poo poo out of each other but under all the dirt they're human and they have families and reasons for being there. Or sometimes they have no reasons and they've just been swept up and away by circumstance, which is an equally rare perspective in fantasy novels.
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# ? Sep 29, 2011 23:22 |
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Habibi posted:Or sometimes they have no reasons and they've just been swept up and away by circumstance, which is an equally rare perspective in fantasy novels. I'll probably be in the minority here again, but I thought that ICE did an excellent job portraying this sort of perspective in Stonewielder through Suth's POV chapters. Suth and the other recruits with him were attracted to the Malazan army because of the stories they heard about the battles on Quon Tali during the events of RotCG. The brief mentions of Li Heng and the Crimson Guard that ICE inserts in these sections are very effective world building in my opinion- far more effective than anything he attempted previously, anyway. I still have doubts about Orb, Sceptre, Throne, though. I think SW was such a massive improvement over RotCG partly because ICE had a smaller canvas to work with, and kept things fairly tight as a result. With Darujhistan, however, Erikson set so many different plots in motion that have yet to be resolved, that I worry ICE may not be able to handle them all.
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# ? Sep 30, 2011 00:23 |
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# ? Jun 5, 2024 04:50 |
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Habibi posted:Or sometimes they have no reasons and they've just been swept up and away by circumstance, which is an equally rare perspective in fantasy novels. Yeah, that's part of what I'm talking about. The two common perspectives in fantasy have good guys who made a decision to be good and bad guys who made a decision to be bad (it's just that in one of the perspectives both sides are bad guys). The Malazan series tends more towards people doing what they think they have to do.
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# ? Sep 30, 2011 17:13 |