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Sansa will hopefully be a dominant player before the end. She is learning the Game of Thrones like no other.
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Dec 27, 2011 23:42
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John XIII posted:Sansa will hopefully be a dominant player before the end. She is learning the Game of Thrones like no other. No she isn't and no she wont.
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Dec 27, 2011 23:53
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It would be simultaneously infuriating and awesome if Sansa went all schemey and vengeful after she gets wind of all her family beind dead as doornails.
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Dec 28, 2011 00:01
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Went to barnes and noble today to use a gift card, the selection really sucks. They didn't have a lot of the classic sci fi books like Neuromancer, and only like half complete fantasy series. They had hardcover ASOIAF, but I didn't even see ADWD.
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Dec 28, 2011 01:01
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Sophia posted:In some sense GRRM is bad at writing long-term characters of any sex (eventually they all boil down to one, usually stupid, character trait if they stick around long enough), but with women their non-power-based motivations are almost always love or children, and their fatal flaw is usually stupidity or fatal blindness. See: Dany, Sansa, Cersei, Catelyn, Lysa, Asha, etc.
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Dec 28, 2011 01:08
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Octy posted:Everything that happens in GoT and subsequent books is Catelyn's fault. Women are just the worst. Actually, Varys and Littlefinger are the cause of all this. Women were either pawns or flies ensnared in their webs of deceit. Women don't even have the agency to gently caress up on their own, the poor dears. Also: Asha Greyjoy. No daddy issues there, from what we've read of her. She's just fine with her dad, and only wants what's hers, and is not forced into a man's world due to extreme youth, ugliness, or old age (Queen of Thorns). Though, since she's not an idiot, she does use feminine wiles when it works in her favor, but then Littlefinger uses his masculine wiles on Lysa, so I'm gonna call it even. What I'm saying is, apart from the rape fakeout, she's the best-written female character in the novels.
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Dec 28, 2011 01:26
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Dany was always a terrible character from the beginning though, so I don't think she ever had the potential of being a break-out character.
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Dec 28, 2011 01:28
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bigmcgaffney posted:Went to barnes and noble Which one so I know to avoid it.
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Dec 28, 2011 01:29
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I'm sorry, I meant to add more to that terrible post. Technically Dany is still motivated by revenge in the first three books. Revenge for her family being slaughtered and whatnot (although that does change with ADWD). The flaws still stand of her being too stupid though. I'd say Brienne has more actual potential as a good female character. It's too bad GRRM decided to assign her a fetch quest she could never complete so her chapters ending up being terrible.
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Dec 28, 2011 01:44
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Cersei has always been my favorite character in the books. I think GRRM absolutely nailed the depiction of a narcissistic sociopath. I actually liked AFFC because we got to see inside her head.my cat is norris posted:That's okay because all of the interesting women in Gurm's novels act like men (at least until they start fantasizing about how great penises are). If the only way he can write good female characters is to pretend they're male, I'm all for it. Like Alien. It's better than writing women like inscrutable bitchy aliens (Jordan  ). 
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Dec 28, 2011 02:03
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FourLeaf posted:If the only way he can write good female characters is to pretend they're male, I'm all for it. Like Alien. It's better than writing women like inscrutable bitchy aliens (Jordan Ripley was originally written as a part for a dude. And yes gurm sucks poo poo at writing women. But most fantasy authors do. Even the female ones, as far as I can tell.
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Dec 28, 2011 02:42
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IRQ posted:Ripley was originally written as a part for a dude. I know. I'm saying that when many authors specifically set out to write a female character, they gently caress it up. If the only way they can avoid that is by writing a character as male or "gender-neutral" then switching the pronouns to female (like with Alien), then do it. I think this happens sometimes with minority characters too. FourLeaf fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Dec 28, 2011 |
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Dec 28, 2011 03:03
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Well, as a white middle-class male, I really wouldn't know how to write a good female character either, or critique one. I usually default to "Are they interesting and worthwhile to read about? If no, they are a bad character" for my criteria. Arya and Cersei usually pass this criteria even if I don't actually agree with a lot of what they do. Brienne passes this criteria for me in the first two books. Catelyn, while somewhat annoying as a character, was at least interesting to read about as well. I mean that's where we see a lot of the battling happening in the riverlands in the first three books.
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Dec 28, 2011 03:26
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IRQ posted:Ripley was originally written as a part for a dude. And yes gurm sucks poo poo at writing women. But most fantasy authors do. Even the female ones, as far as I can tell. Well, when you're a large enough fan of a genre of work - infamous for poorly-developed female characters - that you actually try and make a career out of making more of that genre, you're kind of self-selecting for an inability to write good female characters, regardless of your gender. And God help those poor souls who want well-written racial/sexual/gender minority characters.... (except for Jalabhar Xho, the True Hero of ASOIAF)
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Dec 28, 2011 03:41
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Contra Calculus posted:Well, as a white middle-class male, I really wouldn't know how to write a good female character either, or critique one. I usually default to "Are they interesting and worthwhile to read about? If no, they are a bad character" for my criteria. Arya and Cersei usually pass this criteria even if I don't actually agree with a lot of what they do. Brienne passes this criteria for me in the first two books. Catelyn, while somewhat annoying as a character, was at least interesting to read about as well. I mean that's where we see a lot of the battling happening in the riverlands in the first three books. For me Brienne was even more intriguing in the fourth book just because of her experiences. I don't really care about gender when it comes to characters, only if they're interesting.
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Dec 28, 2011 04:03
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Maytag posted:Which one so I know to avoid it. Usually they have a good selection, so maybe Christmas gutted the shelves. Maybe my perceptions have been skewed though by having a Kindle and all books at my fingertips. I ended up getting Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. Jalabhar Xho rules, he supplies all that Summer Island moon sugar to the King's Landing courtiers.
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Dec 28, 2011 04:09
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Azure_Horizon posted:For me Brienne was even more intriguing in the fourth book I really can't tell if you're a gimmick account or not. I can understand defending her chapters by saying how they show the plight of the common folk blah blah blah, but Brienne is a total non-character in Feast. Her brawl towards the end is pretty cool, though.
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Dec 28, 2011 04:29
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Intel&Sebastian posted:It would be simultaneously infuriating and awesome if Sansa went all schemey and vengeful after she gets wind of all her family beind dead as doornails. I'm almost certain Sansa will be the one to do Littlefinger in at the end of the series. If we get an end to the series, of course.
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Dec 28, 2011 05:20
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bigmcgaffney posted:Usually they have a good selection, so maybe Christmas gutted the shelves. Maybe my perceptions have been skewed though by having a Kindle and all books at my fingertips. I ended up getting Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. Jalabhar Xho is actually a secret Targaryen, he's a reverse albino.
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Dec 28, 2011 05:22
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AH just likes us to recognize how special and snowflakey he is because he has the dissenting opinion. This helps him cope with the crippling self-esteem issues that are preventing him from enjoying a normal life outside of SA. I mean, you really can't do much with yourself when you're that firmly attached to Gurm's rear end in a top hat. I will accept that Brienne's chapters had moments of interest, and I grew to like Pod, some; but, like much of AFFC and Dance, her chapters should have been greatly condensed. I look forward to the portrayal of her quest in the TV series because I think it's going to be handled in a much better way, in that constrained format.
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Dec 28, 2011 05:24
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my cat is norris posted:AH just likes us to recognize how special and snowflakey he is because he has the dissenting opinion. This helps him cope with the crippling self-esteem issues that are preventing him from enjoying a normal life outside of SA. I mean, you really can't do much with yourself when you're that firmly attached to Gurm's rear end in a top hat. Ahh, yes, self-esteem issues. That must be it. Armchair psychology from the Bad Thread is definitely worth a poo poo.
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Dec 28, 2011 05:31
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IRQ posted:Ripley was originally written as a part for a dude. And yes gurm sucks poo poo at writing women. But most fantasy authors do. Even the female ones, as far as I can tell. This is true, my pointing out of GRRM's failures was not meant to absolve the rest of the genre. I think that Cersei is a very cool character, especially once you get in her head to see how paranoid and deluded she really is. I also think Catelyn was baller, even though she screwed up, because sometimes people screw up. I don't have a problem with flawed female characters, or even reprehensible ones. But anyone who thinks that GRRM doesn't perceive women in their sexually viable years as uncontrollable balls of hormones and irrationality who only think about men, about how much they wish they were men, or about children is being willfully blind. Azure_Horizon, it's nice for you that you're a dude and don't need to be bothered by these things but we are not all so "fortunate". If only I could be a powerful, unconcerned man... 
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Dec 28, 2011 06:06
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I too, thought Crossroads of Twilight was the best Wheel of Time book, the character development was top notch. Mat Cauthon (what a cad!) and Perrin Aybara really came into their own, especially Perrin now that he could stop worrying about that she-devil Faile and her lesbian exploits among the Aiel. Really enjoyed Nynaeve's stuff too, loving brilliant. Jordan was definitely on point this go round. And yes, Episodes I, II, and III were far superior because 
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Dec 28, 2011 06:14
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Sophia posted:This is true, my pointing out of GRRM's failures was not meant to absolve the rest of the genre. I'm not unconcerned because I'm a guy, I'm unconcerned because I don't see any of the misogyny you think GRRM is trying to evoke in his writing. I see women caught in a patriarchal system with little to no agency, and the agency that they do have is unfortunately through imitating men or masculine qualities, OR using sex to get what they want. The only female character I can see that is heading even slightly in that direction is Daenerys, if only because of her entire novel falling back on "but I am just a little girl..." or whatever business. However, that to me speaks more to GRRM's failing in writing a fourteen-year-old girl-queen. I just think it's a huge stretch to call him misogynistic, and I've read misogynistic literature. The majority of the Western canon up until the 20th century was that, female writers aside.
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Dec 28, 2011 06:23
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Max Awfuls posted:I'm almost certain Sansa will be the one to do Littlefinger in at the end of the series. If we get an end to the series, of course. I'm pretty sure she'll betray him after she finds out he's been poisoning Robert so her new husband Harry can inherit. Or if he hasn't been, after he kills Robert once he shows signs of inconveniently getting better.
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Dec 28, 2011 06:44
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Daario is the Westerosi Mr. Darcy.
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Dec 28, 2011 06:58
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Azure_Horizon posted:I just think it's a huge stretch to call him misogynistic, and I've read misogynistic literature. The majority of the Western canon up until the 20th century was that, female writers aside. Are you implying women can't be misogynists? Because, brother, have I got news for you.
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Dec 28, 2011 07:09
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Are you implying women can't be misogynists? Because, brother, have I got news for you. No, I'm not implying that at all. I am implying that the majority of male writers before the 20th century were practically sexist.
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Dec 28, 2011 07:34
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Azure_Horizon posted:I'm not unconcerned because I'm a guy, I'm unconcerned because I don't see any of the misogyny you think GRRM is trying to evoke in his writing. I see women caught in a patriarchal system with little to no agency, and the agency that they do have is unfortunately through imitating men or masculine qualities, OR using sex to get what they want.
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Dec 28, 2011 07:57
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Isn't this supposed to be some medieval world anyway? I remember reading about how grum (peace be upon him) was trying to make it socially accurate for that age. Seems like y'all want some emporewed 20th century American woman character plopped into your castle and armor stories. So stop trying to ruin my immersion! 
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Dec 28, 2011 08:04
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FourLeaf posted:I know. I'm saying that when many authors specifically set out to write a female character, they gently caress it up. If the only way they can avoid that is by writing a character as male or "gender-neutral" then switching the pronouns to female (like with Alien), then do it. I don't disagree. It's a big problem with fantasy, as very un-bad thread as it is to address this. The whole genre is horrible at women (not surprisingly) to the point that even female fantasy authors write really weird and just wrong female characters (in my experience). It's almost as if most of the people writing these things have never had actual female friends. Which yeah yeah, we like to joke of course they don't, but holy poo poo. And then I remember those photos of Gurm's "wedding" where everyone is holding fake war axes and poo poo and just  . You make my broken rear end look well adjusted, Gurm.
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Dec 28, 2011 08:12
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They stack Fantasy books right next to the Romance ones, and I think this should serve as an instant cap on any gender-writing expectations. Also both ailes have much raep. My idea of a "well written female character" is one that pretty much conforms to my white-male-college-educated expectations of what a female "should" be like. Sure you can challenge me a bit, but I mean - if you delve too accurately into the ole female perspective, I'm not sure I can keep up. Or if I want to. I'm not looking to read the Ya Ya Sisterhood, ok? I'm looking for women who swoon, men who kick rear end, and sweep said women off their feet. Some like the Darkstar, and some like El Gregor. OK maybe some women that kick rear end too.. but not QUITE as much rear end kicking as the men. Unless they are really hot. I mean this poo poo is fantasy writing. I'm not looking to turn my view of gender roles upside down. I'm looking for loving dragons and magic spells and hot myrish lesbian sex scenes. Don't get me wrong - I could read all day about Pern's Menolly (female character/female writer), and those talentless cunts at Harper Hall that mock her back-woods ways. She's got firelizards, and a big crush on Master Robinton and I am loving DOWN to find out more. But I'm also know that I'm in the fantasy/romance section, so I'm not looking too deep, you know? Edit: so like what are some "good" female characters in sci-fi / fantasy. Any (the one) women in this thread want to chime in? Some off the top of my head that I've liked: -Jessica from Dune -Lessa or Menolly from Pern -"Jones" from C. J. Cherryh's Merovingen Nights -How about CS Friedman? I kind of can't stand her heroine from the Feast of Souls books. I really liked her adept from the Coldfire books though. -Elizabeth from Julian May's Pliocene Exile kcroy fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Dec 28, 2011 |
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Dec 28, 2011 09:18
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[EDIT: ^^^ Don't worry IRQ, this post is also very un-Bad Thread  ]rockamiclikeavandal posted:Isn't this supposed to be some medieval world anyway? I remember reading about how grum (peace be upon him) was trying to make it socially accurate for that age. Seems like y'all want some emporewed 20th century American woman character plopped into your castle and armor stories. So stop trying to ruin my immersion! Actually, this is why Asha seems kinda unrealistic to me, compared to Brienne. She is basically a 21st century woman dropped into a medieval world, a warrior princess straight out of Tamora Pierce (aside from the fakerape!sex). Brienne got way more poo poo than Asha did over becoming a fighter, even though Asha grew up in a (relatively) more brutal and patriarchal society. Was it just because Brienne is ugly and mannish? Well Brienne's brute size and strength are what helped her become so skilled, which makes her much more believable than like 90% of the warrior heroines in all of fantasy. A 100-pound waif is not going to be able to pick up a greatsword and kick rear end with it. And frankly, the abuse Brienne got also seemed very realistic. What's Asha's excuse? It's like GRRM's trying to have his cake and eat it too (What the gently caress am I saying, of course he's gonna eat it anyway  ). He created a medieval society based on reality, with all the sexism that brings with it, but he also wants said society to somehow produce a woman like Asha. He's breaking his own rules.
FourLeaf fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Dec 28, 2011 |
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Dec 28, 2011 09:46
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Well, Asha is a double rapist, if that helps you out at all. Edit: Greyjoys do not sow, they have different standards of childcare.
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Dec 28, 2011 10:12
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A friend said she was nearly done with Dance and I remembered this thread. Turns out it's still alive. What fraudulent release date estimate is the GRRM peddling for the next book? (I haven't kept up with anything other than the 1st season of the show)
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Dec 28, 2011 10:57
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Dendra posted:A friend said she was nearly done with Dance and I remembered this thread. Turns out it's still alive. What fraudulent release date estimate is the GRRM peddling for the next book? (I haven't kept up with anything other than the 1st season of the show) He hasn't even started writing it, other than what was moved from Dance. Seriously.
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Dec 28, 2011 10:59
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He's actually refusing to give an estimated date of completion. He's adapting 
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Dec 28, 2011 11:13
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I thought he said a while back that at least a hundred pages had been written? As in, he said this last year. That's got to be at least a hundred pages of Dany doing nothing but having sex with Daario. Fake edit - And making GBS threads water. Octy fucked around with this message at 11:32 on Dec 28, 2011 |
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Dec 28, 2011 11:28
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Octy posted:I thought he said a while back that at least a hundred pages had been written? That's got to be at least a hundred pages of Dany doing nothing but having sex with Daario.
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Dec 28, 2011 11:31
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That's going a bit far. Excuse me while I use the bathroom.
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Dec 28, 2011 11:35
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