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Azure_Horizon posted:I'm not unconcerned because I'm a guy, I'm unconcerned because I don't see any of the misogyny you think GRRM is trying to evoke in his writing. I don't think he's trying to evoke misogyny - he's not consciously saying "oh man, those women, I'm going to denigrate them good in this here book". I think that he is fairly misogynistic, and it comes through (plainly) in his writing. Someone doesn't have to be frothing at the mouth about how much they hate women to unconsciously consider women inferior or defective. Saying "it's the setting" is a total copout. That can be a reason why they typically don't hold power, or why men in the story behave poorly towards them, but it doesn't justify their inner thoughts being so stupid and un-typical of real women. Ygritte, who lives in basically the least misogynistic culture there is in this world, is still basically all about getting up on Jon Snow's jock. That's her entire character, is to be some breasts and a vagina to tempt him into breaking his vows (and to give him a wildling exposition machine). How demeaning is that? Edit: Though in his defense, Daario is basically around to be Dany's dream dick, so he spreads that out a bit. As to good female fantasy characters, I don't read much in the fantasy genre (mainly because it is so full of bad female characters), but I would say Davi and Fila or whatever her name is in the Kingkiller Chronicles, Katniss in the first book of the Hunger Games series until she gets all stupid, Hermione in Harry Potter, most of the girls in Tamora Pierce's work but especially Kel. People who write young adult books (excluding loving Twilight for god's sake) are usually better at making a well-rounded, believable female character than people who write adult fantasy. Edit: I apologize, bad thread, if I have lead your discussion astray! 
Sophia fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Dec 28, 2011 |
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Dec 28, 2011 14:00
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kcroy posted:so like what are some "good" female characters in sci-fi / fantasy. Any (the one) women in this thread want to chime in? Anathema Device Hermione Granger Buffy Summers Laura Roslin Katniss Everdeen
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Dec 28, 2011 14:38
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I always enjoyed the ladies from Rawn's Exiles books. The three main sisters, anyway. I'll come up with better examples later after I've looked at my library and recalled things.
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Dec 28, 2011 14:40
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C'mon now. Brienne would get made fun of and called ugly and instead of smashing a loving face in or hooting and charging she took it and got all mopey. That's why she has no power. Asha knew her worth and ran with the boys while still enjoying a good rape- a.k.a. the perfect balance. These characters only have power based on how they act in the world. And acting with confidence or strength doesn't necessarily mean they are "trying to be men." Strong and confident women are sexy as hell, bros.
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Dec 28, 2011 14:54
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Maytag posted:These characters only have power based on how they act in the world. And acting with confidence or strength doesn't necessarily mean they are "trying to be men." Strong and confident women are sexy as hell, bros.
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Dec 28, 2011 15:01
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This is a silly argument. Let's make things that insult the gurm! 
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Dec 28, 2011 15:09
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Can't wait for the audiobook: Books on tape presents: A pile of poo poo, book three of A poo poo of blood and water, wrote by George R.R. Martin, read to you by Azure Horizon. Daario As the sun rised over her night soil, Daario felt that Danny's colostomy bag was full, she is such a good girl he thought, all it takes is a light kiss on her forehead and she doesn't thrash while i change it. Unlike his other patients Danny was special, she had been in a car accident four years ago, that difigured her and left her disabled at the tender age of 10, but her brain was mostly spared, wich enabled her to write fantasy books; wich in turn he read at her request. This books were mostly cheap fantasy about a kingdom named Westeros, just as the nursing home he worked at, actually, most of the names were from the only things she knew anymore, she appeared as a queen, but not just any queen, but the most beautiful girl in the realm, even he appeared in some of the chapters, the ones she mostly didn't show him. Those chapters were the ones most poorly written, in those he a male nurse was a brave warrior of sorts, with a ridiculous mustache and blue goth hair, he felt guilty about this poor girls inflatuation, and mostly discuraged it, but sometimes he felt so sorry for the cruel jape the world had played her and played along just to ease her suffering...
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Dec 28, 2011 15:33
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Azure_Horizon posted:No, I'm not implying that at all. I am implying that the majority of male writers before the 20th century were practically sexist. Of course they were. Society was, and it informed their writing. It still is and it still does. In both directions, frankly. But then you went and said "female writers aside" for some reason, which implies you believe women don't write misogynistic things. Which is wrong. Joramun posted:Hermione Granger Oh, so your list was of poorly-written female characters. Gotcha.
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Dec 28, 2011 15:35
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Sophia posted:Saying "it's the setting" is a total copout. That can be a reason why they typically don't hold power, or why men in the story behave poorly towards them, but it doesn't justify their inner thoughts being so stupid and un-typical of real women. Saying it's not the setting is also a total copout. I don't know how many nonfiction books by black Americans/black South Africans you've read, but from what I've read it's sadly normal for an oppressed people to start buying into the role foisted upon them by society, to the point where their thought processes are limited to the narrow scope of what they "should" think about, fixation on their own inferiority, etc.
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Dec 28, 2011 16:46
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The 100 pages that GRRM has "written so far" for Book 6 are just poo poo that was cut from Book 5. He said he wasn't even going to start writing Book 6 until the new year. Only four days!
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Dec 28, 2011 17:10
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Are you implying women can't be misogynists? Because, brother, have I got news for you. My gal was the first person I ever heard say they dead serious wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton based solely on her being a woman lol
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Dec 28, 2011 17:33
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Ross posted:The 100 pages that GRRM has "written so far" for Book 6 are just poo poo that was cut from Book 5. I think GRRM measures years by the NFL calendar, which doesn't end until the Super Bowl.
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Dec 28, 2011 17:47
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Ross posted:The 100 pages that GRRM has "written so far" for Book 6 are just poo poo that was cut from Book 5. The best part is that it very likely is poo poo. Dany making GBS threads water, to be precise. Maybe some of ~~Daaaario~~ making GBS threads water too. And getting shitdick from all the making GBS threads and banging Dany while she steadfastly refuses to do anything interesting. Guys, what if the making GBS threads disease crosses the ocean to westeros? That would be the poo poo. Sophia posted:As to good female fantasy characters, I don't read much in the fantasy genre (mainly because it is so full of bad Good characters period are few and far between in fantasy novels. Kcroy's post on the last page is probably right on target. The genre as a whole just really isn't about deep characters with complex motivations and like it or not, the majority of people reading it don't want that. It's right there in the name; fantasy. This poo poo is, by definition, escapism. Is this a copout too? Maybe it is. Since you post a lot in TVIV too, maybe putting it like this helps: when I pick up a fantasy book, it's like when I turn on a show like The Big Bang Theory. It is what it is, and we all go into it knowing exactly what to expect. And whatever, at least people are posting. These absolute fuckers didn't like my crazy wall idea because gently caress YOU BAD THREAD! I hate all of you with the fury of a thousand Dorkstars, except Mycatisnorris and babby. IRQ fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Dec 28, 2011 |
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Dec 28, 2011 18:32
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Does Daario dye his pubes blue? I feel this is important information to have.
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Dec 28, 2011 19:32
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With gold tips at the waxed points, yes.Sophia posted:Edit: I apologize, bad thread, if I have lead your discussion astray! 1. the entire discussion is one long off-topic rant about GRRM. You can't really lead something astray which was already lost long ago. 2. You're insulting the GRRM. This is about as close to on-topic as you can get in here.
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Dec 28, 2011 19:37
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Since Daario is a secret Targaryen, his pubes are platinum blonde.
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Dec 28, 2011 19:37
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kcr posted:Does Daario dye his pubes blue? I feel this is important information to have.
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Dec 28, 2011 19:50
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Do you think the scene where a giant fat guy stole a bowl of honeyed locusts from a girl and then ate so much he barfed was inspired by personal experience by GRRM?
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Dec 28, 2011 19:53
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IRQ posted:These absolute fuckers didn't like my crazy wall idea because gently caress YOU BAD THREAD!
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Dec 28, 2011 20:06
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The ultimate question: What is more misogynistic, fantasy novels or rap/rock videos?
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Dec 28, 2011 20:23
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Ooo, rap videos for sure. At least you can excuse the fantasy writers for being clueless about what women are really like, being mostly shut-in nerds. The idealized fantasy woman would be tolerable in real life, if a touch boring. The women in rap videos are generally too busy rear end-clapping on the hood of a Porsche to have personalities half as thin as a fantasy character. There is little difference, in my experience, between rap videos and the pornography made by/for black guys who think they are hardcore soldiers from the ghetto. Lots of shiny hotpants, rear end-clapping, and dudes in doo-rags and big pants calling women bitches. Conan of Cimmeria has a progressive, healthy outlook on women in comparison to that.
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Dec 28, 2011 21:07
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Of course they were. Society was, and it informed their writing. It still is and it still does. In both directions, frankly. But then you went and said "female writers aside" for some reason, which implies you believe women don't write misogynistic things. Give me an example of a female writer pre-20th century who was misogynistic. I bet all you'll find is women writing against patriarchal norms.
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Dec 28, 2011 21:14
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Ooo, rap videos for sure. At least you can excuse the fantasy writers for being clueless about what women are really like, being mostly shut-in nerds. The idealized fantasy woman would be tolerable in real life, if a touch boring. The women in rap videos are generally too busy rear end-clapping on the hood of a Porsche to have personalities half as thin as a fantasy character. Ironically Kanye West has a very fantasy attitude towards women in the extended Runaway video.
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Dec 28, 2011 21:44
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Azure_Horizon posted:Give me an example of a female writer pre-20th century who was misogynistic. I bet all you'll find is women writing against patriarchal norms. 
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Dec 28, 2011 21:52
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Yo, I saw that movie. Shakespeare was a dude with a rad moustache who took credit for Edward de Vere's work because the guy was too busy boning his own mom.Azure_Horizon posted:Give me an example of a female writer pre-20th century who was misogynistic. I bet all you'll find is women writing against patriarchal norms. Give me your definition of misogynistic. I'm suddenly picturing something intensely narrow so that you can dodge absolutely any example given. Also, tell me why you believe no female writer pre-1900 could possibly have been misogynistic. Surely, women disliking their own sex and heaping damning condemnations upon other women did not begin with Phyllis Schlafly? What could have made women writing against women a thing in the past century when it, apparently, never existed before? Do you understand how hilariously specious your argument is?
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Dec 28, 2011 22:45
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Joramun posted:William Shakespeare. Who destroyed your avatar? They're a complete piece of poo poo. Azure_Horizon fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Dec 28, 2011 |
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Dec 28, 2011 23:14
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Azure_Horizon posted:Who destroyed your avatar? If it wasn't a mod, they're a complete piece of poo poo. 
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Dec 28, 2011 23:21
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Joramun posted:I dunno. I miss my boys. If I didn't hate Kurt so much, I would too. But Blaine is a stud.
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Dec 28, 2011 23:28
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The misogyny argument is stupid, and I will keep making asinine book covers until it ends, or until I lose interest in making asinine book covers.
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Dec 28, 2011 23:31
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Do you think the scene where a giant fat guy stole a bowl of honeyed locusts from a girl and then ate so much he barfed was inspired by personal experience by GRRM? This is a solid gold post! lol
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Dec 28, 2011 23:37
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basx posted:The misogyny argument is stupid, and I will keep making asinine book covers until it ends, or until I lose interest in making asinine book covers. Would buy two copies.
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Dec 29, 2011 00:19
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basx posted:The misogyny argument is stupid, and I will keep making asinine book covers until it ends, or until I lose interest in making asinine book covers. Does this come in hardback? I don't want the beautiful front cover to wrinkle over time.
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Dec 29, 2011 02:46
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Joramun posted:You're missing the point. A couple of ASoIaF females (at least Cersei, Asha and Arianne, IIRC?) literally wish they were men at several instances in the books. I only recall Cersei doing this, and it's supposed to show how she has internalized the misogyny of her culture. Cersei despises other women and considers herself above them, she constantly thinks about how she should have been given the swords and Jaime/Robert should have been given dresses. This is contrasted with women like Dany and Arianne, who seem to be "proto-feminists" in that they desire to advance women as a whole, not just themselves. Look at Arianne's response to hearing that Tywin has died and Cersei is Queen Regent in AFFC. IIRC she thinks something like, "That's good, having a female regent will get Westeros ready for a ruling Queen (Myrcella)." Cersei would never think something like that. whowhatwhere posted:Eh, from what I remember Asha and Arianne were (well, Asha is, Arianne was) pissed because they felt they would have been the clear heirs to their respective thrones had they been men instead. This. FourLeaf fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Dec 29, 2011 |
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Dec 29, 2011 02:47
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IRQ posted:I hate all of you with the fury of a thousand Dorkstars, except Mycatisnorris and babby. Which is good, considering our betrothal.
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Dec 29, 2011 02:55
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http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html?2 A not that lovely excerpt from winds of winter to complain about. Was this posted?
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Dec 29, 2011 03:00
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Arms_Akimbo posted:http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html?2 I hadn't seen it previously. Kind of expected it to be a joke and was pleasantly surprised!
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Dec 29, 2011 03:53
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I know I'm not the only person to have said this but god drat that site is horrible.
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Dec 29, 2011 04:22
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Niccy Bones posted:I know I'm not the only person to have said this but god drat that site is horrible. Needs some flashing gifs and under construction banners.
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Dec 29, 2011 04:24
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 Stannis isn't dead Actually it seems that except is occurring prior to the supposed battle. I really do hold out hope that the next two books will return the series to being awesome again and the most recent two were not so good only because the Dear Leader never intended to write extensively about this part of the story. Ross fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Dec 29, 2011 |
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Dec 29, 2011 04:25
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Arms_Akimbo posted:http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html?2 Hey, it's like real Song of Ice and Fire again, and it's a scene of Theon and Stannis together--didn't really expect that so soon. I guess it answers most of the question's Bolton's letter raised at the end of ADWD and words are wind. words are wind 
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Dec 29, 2011 04:47
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