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TheLoquid posted:The fact that aDwD was recognized as the best anything is shocking. I don't think I've ever a read a book with less payoff, both as a novel and as a piece of a larger story. ADWD is about the journey not the destination, and that journey was glorious.
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Jan 1, 2012 20:57
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ADWD is about the diarrhea not the menstruation, and that diarrhea was glorious.
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Jan 1, 2012 22:34
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I will never understand that, as prior books had far more actual journeying, including AFfC. -Jon farts around the Wall -Theon farts around Ramsay's camp -Bran actually got to where he was intending to go -Arya continued to fart around the Free Cities -Tyrion starts out on a journey then farts around on a boat, then farts around on another boat, then farts around working for a fat man -Dany farts around Mereen then shits on the Dothraki plains -Quentyn gets where he's going, then farts around, then does something stupid -Asha fights one battle, then farts around Stannis' camp -Victarion farted around on a boat -Aegon and Connington started to invade, which isn't a journey as much as a conquest E- Davos met Manderly, farted in a dungeon for a bit, then was sent off on a journey - Ser Kevan acted like Ser Kevan and Varys acted like Varys - Cersei went on a walk of shame and suffered another variant of Stockholm Syndrome every bit as extreme as the freedom she had beforehand. Also schadenfreude overload for the reader. Please tell me I'm missing someone. And don't think you can pull the "oh they journeyed on the inside" because this ain't Reading Rainbow shitdick. -Jon was ambivalent about a decision he committed to, not really an arc -Theon overcame a variation of Stockholm Syndrome derived from horrific torture, and was a legit arc. This is a big reason why people say his chapters were the best. -Bran became a loving tree -Arya had an initiatory rite to being a Faceless Man, but didn't really change her internal character more than it already had in AFfC -Tyrion felt sympathy for a dwarf girl, and seemed slighty less bummed about where whores go -Dany pined for Daario, hosed him, then was whisked away before she had to admit to or face the consequences of being a lovely ruler who bit off more than she could chew -Quentyn tried to prove he wasn't a useless loser mucking up the works, then proved to be a useless loser who mucked up the works -Asha was Asha, she didn't grow as much as we found out slightly more about her, and it was perfeclty in line with being an amazonian stereotype. -Victarion got a skeleton hand. -Aegon was a brat who sped up his mission, and Connington was a hardass who vowed to be an even harder rear end before his rear end becomes permanently hard. -Davos was 100% a reactive entity - If you had read any of the prior books I don't know what about Ser Kevan or Varys' actions could have been interpreted as a change or growth other than confirmation that the shady spy eunuch isn't 100% afraid to get his own hands dirty. - Cersei had growth too, but much like Theon hers was an outgrowth of being confined and forced to think/act a certain way in order to get the chance for freedom. Legitimate as an arc, but redundant. I'm not even saying this makes ADwD a bad novel, just that I really don't see how you could possibly confuse it with a journey when really it's at best table-setting for the next book. It's not a journey you read so much as watching the actors set up the stage for the next show, presented as a show in its own right. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Jan 1, 2012 |
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Jan 1, 2012 22:38
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The journey wasn't loving glorious, the journey was like getting stuck in a traffic jam on the way to Butlins, and making GBS threads yourself just before getting there to find it's closed anyway and all you have to comfort you is a bag of sour poo poo berries.
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Jan 1, 2012 22:53
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mind the walrus posted:Please tell me I'm missing someone.
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Jan 1, 2012 22:59
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Mel did even less than Jon so I didn't see her as worthy of inclusion, and considering how little these characters did that's saying a lot.
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Jan 1, 2012 23:06
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Barristan. He hosed up assholes and bitch slapped the pansy rear end king. His chapters owned hard. 
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Jan 1, 2012 23:41
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Being a ASoIaF fan is like being a Seattle Mariners fan. There was once a point when they were loving great, but now, despite a few interesting characters, it's like a parade of human misery. Everything is in place for them to be great, but they continually fail to meet even the lowest expectations. Every year is a "rebuilding" year. But next year will be better! It has to be, right?! e: and they're like one of the richest teams in baseball (well, in the top third). God dammit, Mariners Conduit for Sale! fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Jan 1, 2012 |
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Jan 1, 2012 23:45
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VaultAggie posted:Barristan. He hosed up assholes and bitch slapped the pansy rear end king. His chapters owned hard. They did, but he was hamstrung by Dany who was farting around Mereen  .I agree his chapters owned, but don't pretend they were deep explorations of personal growth other than hints that he'd be a loving badass general-emperor.
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Jan 1, 2012 23:53
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Conduit for Sale! posted:Being a ASoIaF fan is like being a Seattle Mariners fan. There was once a point when they were loving great, but now, despite a few interesting characters, it's like a parade of human misery. Everything is in place for them to be great, but they continually fail to meet even the lowest expectations. Every year is a "rebuilding" year. But next year will be better! It has to be, right?! This is the best analogy for ASOIAF I have ever heard. Sure, 199
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Jan 2, 2012 00:15
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mind the walrus posted:They did, but he was hamstrung by Dany who was farting around Mereen GRRM should write about Barristan's exploits in Westeros 
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Jan 2, 2012 00:34
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hailthefish posted:This is the best analogy for ASOIAF I have ever heard. Sure, 199 2001, man. 116 wins. Also, Felix Hernandez, not interesting? How dare you.
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Jan 2, 2012 00:37
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New York Times posted:but that doesn’t make Mr. Martin the American Tolkien, as some would have it. He’s much better than that. Does anyone have links to fair and reasonable reviews?
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Jan 2, 2012 00:38
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Maytag posted:Does anyone have links to fair and reasonable reviews? There are a couple good Amazon user reviews. You're not going to find good reviews of fantasy books in mainstream media because they don't give a poo poo about fantasy. Nor should they. Newspapers/magazines like the New York Times pretend to give a poo poo so they can get more readers. You'd never catch a good literary journal pretending to give a poo poo about GRRM.
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Jan 2, 2012 00:53
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hailthefish posted:Time for The Bad Thread's GRRM Death Pool? GRRM has been on my dead pool every year for 4 or 5 years now, which is just another reason he's been a constant disappointment.
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Jan 2, 2012 01:05
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geeves posted:GRRM should write about Barristan's exploits in Westeros Especially when he rescued Aerys from Duskendale. Or his role in the Battle of the Trident.
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Jan 2, 2012 01:24
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Maytag posted:Does anyone have links to fair and reasonable reviews?
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Jan 2, 2012 01:25
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Joramun posted:http://www.sfreviews.net/grrm_dance_with_dragons.html quote:Martin's writing, as expected, never meets anything less than the highest standards of literary craft, with many individual chapters good enough to function on their own as award-worthy short stories. He said "reasonable", not "pants on head retarded".
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Jan 2, 2012 01:29
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Conduit for Sale! posted:He said "reasonable", not "pants on head retarded".
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Jan 2, 2012 01:32
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Somedays Joramun is a good poster. Then he posts the most cocksuckingest things about GRRM and it's all I can do to not mash the report button or buy him a giant red title.
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Jan 2, 2012 01:47
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There are probably a couple decent chapters somewhere in Dance. Unfortunately none of them form a decent novel, let alone piece of a series.
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Jan 2, 2012 01:54
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Somedays Joramun is a good poster. Then he posts the most cocksuckingest things about GRRM and it's all I can do to not mash the report button or buy him a giant red title.  (The Bad Thread®: The tsundere of ASOIAF fandom.)
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Jan 2, 2012 02:34
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GRRM has done a great job of creating a fully realized world with an intriguing political set-up, interesting characters that readers will care about, and clever foreshadowing to future events. In his first couple of books he even managed to write a cohesive and driven plot, though he has never been a fantastic writer, more of a fantastic world-builder. Since that point, he has done a terrible job of propelling his plot forward, or even having one, and has been allowed to give rein to his worst writing habits, such as creepy old man fantasies about women, food description, heraldry porn, and vaguely misogynistic turn of mind. He is a decent writer, especially for fantasy, but his editors let him run amok. He's made a great set-up that's kept people coming back to find out what actually happens to all of these people and factions, but anyone saying that he's at the peak of "literary craft" even in his best chapters has some kind of brain damage.
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Jan 2, 2012 02:50
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Somedays Joramun is a good poster. Then he posts the most cocksuckingest things about GRRM and it's all I can do to not mash the report button or buy him a giant red title. I think this about everything you ever post. Azure_Horizon fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Jan 2, 2012 |
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Jan 2, 2012 02:59
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NihilCredo posted:Indeed, the way to be a good poster is to exclusively circlejerk about how you totally seriously noIswearreally can't stand GRRM's writing, and only deign to read him so you can better point out what a lovely writer he is, not because you actually enjoy it or anything There is some middle ground between "Martin's writing, as expected, never meets anything less than the highest standards of literary craft" and the thing you're complaining about, you know.
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Jan 2, 2012 03:02
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So let me get this straight, this...Joramun posted:Funny that you should quote that particular sentence, because it struck me as the most accurate one in the entire review. Not a word in it that isn't true. ...which is either controlled trolling or outright cronyism is somehow less offensive than this... NihilCredo posted:Indeed, the way to be a good poster is to exclusively circlejerk about how you totally seriously noIswearreally can't stand GRRM's writing, and only deign to read him so you can better point out what a lovely writer he is, not because you actually enjoy it or anything ... which is itself a hyperbolic statement with no evidence beyond the Bad Thread's reputation and a bonus link to TVTropes. ..... There is some weapons-grade stupid coming from GRRM sympathizers right now.
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Jan 2, 2012 04:15
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mind the walrus posted:So let me get this straight, this... No, but Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Somedays Joramun is a good poster. Then he posts the most cocksuckingest things about GRRM and it's all I can do to not mash the report button or buy him a giant red title. is more offensive than both combined.
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Jan 2, 2012 04:52
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Also it's a wikipedia link
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Jan 2, 2012 05:07
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IRQ posted:How in the gently caress is A poo poo of Water book of the year? About the only way I can think of it being book of the year would be its (temporary, most likely) mainstreaming of high fantasy that's not Tolkein in the USA. It seized the zeitgeist of the mainstream taste-makers in a more complete way than, say, The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, since it became a big deal in two different media at the same time (Yeah, there was the Swedish film, but the mainstream didn't watch that, and the Fincher movie came out too late).
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Jan 2, 2012 05:22
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Jets got eliminated like Dany's bowels but the Giants won. gently caress. The scene with Wun Wun crushing the dallas knight was prophetic.
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Jan 2, 2012 05:47
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bigmcgaffney posted:Jets got eliminated like Dany's bowels but the Giants won. Next book has scenes with Wun Wun killing knights with the heraldry of every other NFL team. It takes 250 pages to describe their clothing alone.
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Jan 2, 2012 06:02
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Azure_Horizon posted:No, but To be fair he was being kind-of a knob. The only thing more annoying than someone who spends their time analyzing something to tear it down is a sycophant throwing inflammatory praise onto something that frankly doesn't deserve it. It's not like he didn't know what thread he was posting that opinion in. NihilCredo posted:Also it's a wikipedia link Fair enough, my apologies. The use of an anime term threw me to TVTropes by instinct. Also good news on the Jets GRRM should be updating us more all the time now right?
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Jan 2, 2012 07:16
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NihilCredo posted:Indeed, the way to be a good poster is to exclusively circlejerk about how you totally seriously noIswearreally can't stand GRRM's writing, and only deign to read him so you can better point out what a lovely writer he is, not because you actually enjoy it or anything Say I like Stephen King. Say I think he's written some absolutely wonderful novels, and I recommend them heartily whenever I can. And I give warnings, because he has his set of flaws that can really gently caress up otherwise good novels. He's also written some vile turds, which I recommend people stay the hell away from and will explain why I feel that way. If people don't like him in general or his specific books, hey, that's totally their deal and I understand that not everyone is going to like my tastes. It's art. It's subjective. The dude abides. What I don't do for authors I enjoy is relentlessly defend them, ignoring every fault they have and claiming their every penstroke is some kind of sublimity. Were the first three ASOIAF novels good? Hell yes, I devoured them. And they absolutely have flaws. People who say there are no faults in any given thing? They're at best trolls, at worst idiots. Same the opposite direction. I have absolutely hated some books, even if there were parts I liked. As it stands, there's not really an honest dialogue about these last two books. One side says they're perfect alabaster statues. The other says they're unfathomably bad shitheaps. Neither side is correct, and I'm pretty sure both are hyperbole to troll the other. Y'all may notice there's some actual discussion in here when no one's going around making stupid claims about Dance being irredeemably bad or impossibly good.
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Jan 2, 2012 07:21
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mind the walrus posted:To be fair he was being kind-of a knob. The only thing more annoying than someone who spends their time analyzing something to tear it down is a sycophant throwing inflammatory praise onto something that frankly doesn't deserve it. It's not like he didn't know what thread he was posting that opinion in. Joramun can believe what he wants about the novels. What he thinks isn't necessarily correct, but neither is the loud and annoying trollbase in this thread that can't ever say one good thing about GRRM to save their loving lives. The whole series has flaws, it's not perfect. But it's not wrong to believe AFFC/ADWD were well-written novels with fantastic worldbuilding. They have their problems, but they're not nearly as grandiose as this thread would like people to believe. Honest dialogue? In here? Hell would sooner freeze over. Azure_Horizon fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Jan 2, 2012 |
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Jan 2, 2012 07:55
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Apparently a chapter from TWOW. http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html My prediction: -Aegon VI is really a blackfyre descendant of bittersteel.Goes on to conquer the Iron Throne w/ Dorne's help after marrying Arianne. -Varys is really a blackfyre This is all pending that GRRM doesn't have some other illness, such as the common cold, that would inadvertently cause him to miss up to six months of writing. 
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Jan 2, 2012 09:46
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The review I linked to is entirely fair and balanced, it's not exlusively positive but points out the novel's obvious flaws as well as its considerable merits. Considering the particular sentence Conduit for Sale! cherry-picked, it's not at all inacurrate to say that there are several chapters in Dance that are like award-worthy short stories on their own even aside of their place in the larger narrative. E.g.: the prologue, some of Theon's and Victarion's chapters, Dany IX (the locust poisoning in the fighting pit), Victarion, The Griffin Reborn.
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Jan 2, 2012 10:59
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I know the answer but I might as well ask: has he mentioned or written, on his blog, even once, that he sat down to work on winds of winter? I fully expect him to blog about football, hbo, and wild cards for 18 months after DWD dropped before even mentioning winds of winter. wolves of winter? the next book. Hi I skipped the last 5k posts.
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Jan 2, 2012 12:17
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I do know of one ASoIaF-related thing he wrote since finishing ADWD, namely the teleplay of the Battle of the Blackwater in the upcoming second season of Game of Thrones. Which will likely for all intents and purposes become the most epic, spectacular and expensive episode in the entire series, so it makes sense they asked him to adapt it for the screen himself. ETA: There's also the sample chapter from TWOW about Stannis (POV Theon) linked above, but I assume he had already written that during Dance but moved it over to the next book for structural reasons. Joramun fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Jan 2, 2012 |
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Jan 2, 2012 12:36
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Krinkle posted:I know the answer but I might as well ask: has he mentioned or written, on his blog, even once, that he sat down to work on winds of winter? I fully expect him to blog about football, hbo, and wild cards for 18 months after DWD dropped before even mentioning winds of winter. wolves of winter? the next book. Hi I skipped the last 5k posts. Some chapters from Dance got pushed back to Winds, but he has not consciously written anything for the next book. He actually stated that he wouldn't be writing anything until 2012 (which of course, in Gurm's waterlogged calendar, starts after the superbowl).
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Jan 2, 2012 14:22
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I believe you have underestimated how far on GRRM's back burner The Winds of Winter is. He has three things to finish in regards to ASoIaF before he resumes work on the main series: A) Season 2 Game of Thrones B) Another Dunk n Egg / Novella (2012 publish date) C) "The World of Ice and Fire" COMPANION BOOK  He's also working on a lesbian femme fatale book with Gardner Dozois or some poo poo and another wild card for 2012.  e: oh ya; everything he has "written" for The Winds of Winter is just 130ish? pages pushed back from ADWD because it was "too long"
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Jan 2, 2012 16:28
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