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^^^^ poo poo, I forgot about all those other projects. WoW isn't getting an update until July at the earliest, calling it now. Azure_Horizon posted:Joramun can believe what he wants about the novels. What he thinks isn't necessarily correct, but neither is the loud and annoying trollbase in this thread that can't ever say one good thing about GRRM to save their loving lives. I'd rather find new ways to hate than new ways to fluff, and if you think even the most virulent trolls in this thread have never said anything positive about GRRM you're positively delusional. quote:Honest dialogue? In here? Hell would sooner freeze over. Well we're honest that no one particularly likes or respects the others' opinions in here. I'm getting a Deep Blue Something's "Breakfast at Tiffany's" vibe from this. Joramun posted:it's not at all inacurrate to say that there are several chapters in Dance that are like award-worthy short stories on their own even aside of their place in the larger narrative. E.g.: the prologue, some of Theon's and Victarion's chapters, Dany IX (the locust poisoning in the fighting pit), Victarion, The Griffin Reborn. See, my problem isn't that these vignettes weren't any good on their own in a vacuum, it's that they were wholly unsatisfying as part of a larger work. I can understand and appreciate world-building, but that's not why I've continued to read an epic series that up until AFfC had narrative momentum that didn't stall out every third POV chapter to take in the scenery. Enjoying twenty crumbs does not a cookie make.
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Jan 2, 2012 16:38
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Iseeyouseemeseeyou posted:C) "The World of Ice and Fire" COMPANION BOOK
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Jan 2, 2012 16:55
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Joramun posted:I hope it's something like those two companion books for Harry Potter (Quidditch Through the Ages and Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them), those were a lot of fun. Perhaps even written in character, like a Westerosi equivalent to Pawnee: The Greatest Town in America. Not sure what those books are about.. but the Companion book is basically a much much more detailed map of A Song of Ice and Fire (All 3/4 Continents) + very thorough family genealogies. I expect it is GRRM's real life version of The White Book or w/e the kingsguard book is. I don't really get why he is doing this now and not wrapping up the other books then releasing it. Seems like it will be very spoiler heavy or maybe he's doing this so he can re-release it after he finishes the series  e: holy poo poo these pubbies on westeros.org are terrible. TerriblePubbie101 posted:I don't believe in magic. I do think it's probably possible to postulate a set of orbital conditions such that the climatic conditions described by GRRM could exist, though it may not be a stable configuration. I think magic is just what people call incomprehensible situations when they're too busy (or lazy) to do the math. DifferentPubbieStillAwful posted:drat it, I want to know EVERYTHING about this world!! I'm fascinated about the geographical implications of Martinworld; volcanic eruptions, mini Ice Ages and corresponding falls and rises in sea levels, the shattering of the Arm, why the Milkwater still flows even though it should be locked in perpetual Ice, the Shadow of Asshai, why people can still follow a 'polestar' if the planetary elliptic orbit explains the erratic climate! Iseeyouseemeseeyou fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jan 2, 2012 |
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Jan 2, 2012 17:26
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If someone could troll the board with GRRM's quote that it's just magic I'd be most appreciative.
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Jan 2, 2012 18:08
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Iseeyouseemeseeyou posted:TerriblePubbie101 posted:
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Jan 2, 2012 18:35
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Iseeyouseemeseeyou posted:Not sure what those books are about.. but the Companion book is basically a much much more detailed map of A Song of Ice and Fire (All 3/4 Continents) + very thorough family genealogies. I expect it is GRRM's real life version of The White Book or w/e the kingsguard book is. What do you mean it doesn't show the loving solar system this bullshit planet is in? Orbit's gotta be elliptical as gently caress if winter lasts for 10 years on average.
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Jan 2, 2012 20:00
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whowhatwhere posted:If someone could troll the board with GRRM's quote that it's just magic I'd be most appreciative. I would be "most appreciative" too  Quote Thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/11904-the-doom-of-valyria-any-chance/
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Jan 2, 2012 20:29
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Vertigus posted:What do you mean it doesn't show the loving solar system this bullshit planet is in? Orbit's gotta be elliptical as gently caress if winter lasts for 10 years on average. Yeah it's pretty unrealistic and I demand realism in my fantasy books.
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Jan 2, 2012 20:33
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These were the first fantasy books I have ever read and it really seems to me that this  world building is a loving copout. In any other genre if you drag a story out or refuse to move the plot along or simply get bogged down in minor angles, you are called a hack and bad at pacing and storytelling. If you write fantasy books though it is simply world building and you are a genius.
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Jan 2, 2012 20:38
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rockamiclikeavandal posted:In any other genre if you drag a story out or refuse to move the plot along or simply get bogged down in minor angles, you are called a hack and bad at pacing and storytelling. Joramun fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jan 2, 2012 |
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Jan 2, 2012 20:43
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Joramun posted:No, then you win a Pulitzer. Bahahaha, nice.
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Jan 2, 2012 20:55
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rockamiclikeavandal posted:These were the first fantasy books I have ever read and it really seems to me that this You're completely correct. This is one of the big problems with genre writing today - authors sacrifice craft and power for inert lumps of minutiae, trying to be Tolkien without understanding his strengths or his many weaknesses. There's very little genuinely good fantasy out there, but it does exist. If you stick with the genre you'll learn to recognize the warning signs of the 'big fat fantasy' epic so you can steer clear. The strengths of GRRM's writing lie in multipolar narrative, a world that creates conflict which can both shape and be shaped by individual nobility, and the willingness to invest flaws in characters who would classically be heroes and sympathy in those who would be classically villains. When he plays to these strengths he does okay, but he's a little shaky otherwise. (his prose sucks, argh) General Battuta fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jan 2, 2012 |
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Jan 2, 2012 21:02
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Sophia posted:anyone saying that he's at the peak of "literary craft" even in his best chapters has some kind of brain damage. General Battuta posted:There's very little genuinely good fantasy out there, but it does exist.
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Jan 2, 2012 21:11
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Joramun posted:For clarification, could you name some examples of whom you do consider to be writing at peak literary craft in genre fiction, if GRRM isn't it? Well, assuming by "genre fiction" you mean the fantasy genre, there really aren't any. People who write extraordinarily well generally aren't drawn to writing fantasy. I suppose Tolkien, maybe, would be the one to consider since he wrote very pretty prose even though he couldn't write a three-dimensional character to save his life. I personally really enjoy the way that Patrick Rothfuss writes, but he's not even close to peak literary craft. Terry Pratchett is enormously clever and witty, with the best turns of phrase in the business, but he's not striking out towards mastering literary craft. GRRM writes perfectly serviceable prose; in fantasy he's definitely right up there among the top. He can sit down and tell you a story (when he has a story) in simple, evocative words that get the job done. Robert Jordan would have killed to write half so well. But like Stephen King or J.K. Rowling, his strength is in the story, not in the writing.
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Jan 2, 2012 21:28
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Joramun posted:For clarification, could you name some examples of whom you do consider to be writing at peak literary craft in genre fiction, if GRRM isn't it? These are two different questions, so I'm going to answer the second one. Catherynne Valente, China Mieville when he's good (he has prose troubles too, in a different direction), people really like Patrick Rothfuss but I haven't read him, did I mention Catherynne Valente. For those I would call less objectively good and more subjectively to my taste: if you can tolerate the bleakest most hosed-up world and thick as gently caress purple philosophy prose, Scott Bakker will take you interesting places, like a really bad acid trip with rape aliens. People go nuts over Steve Erikson but personally I think he's in the same boat as GRRM where he makes an interesting world and does interesting things in it but is a shaky prose writer. Unfortunately there are very few fantasy writers who can write well. I really agree with Sophia that the best fantasy writers put their strengths elsewhere. If you want to read really scorchingly amazing prose you need to go to literature. Cormac McCarthy is my drug of choice. e: holy poo poo I forgot Bridge of Birds, read that loving book. Also, if you're branching out from fantasy into SF: William Gibson has a very specific and highly developed style which has some literary cred. I don't personally like his books, but I think his prose is fascinating. Ted Chiang is a great writer too, though he only does short stories. I am a huge personal fan of Theodora Goss, who is fantasy. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jan 2, 2012 |
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Jan 2, 2012 21:33
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I take it neither of you have read any Susanna Clarke, then. Her prose is sculpted and polished to perfection, every sentence a little work of art.
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Jan 2, 2012 21:43
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Joramun posted:I take it neither of you have read any Susanna Clarke, then. Her prose is sculpted and polished to perfection, every sentence a little work of art. You cannot use this sentence and mean it seriously. I would not use it about any writer ever. It's obvious hyperbole and I wish you would go back to ambiguous hyperbole.  I read some Clarke, thought she was all right. e: Prose quality is a funny thing because it's really not completely subjective, but it's so hard to describe it feels like it. I'm struggling to describe how I can tell a good writer from a merely competent one. There are little tells - steering away from conjugations of 'to be', for instance - but I feel like I should take some notes next time I'm going through a novel I don't like. I have a fellow writer friend who practices his prose by working through novels he likes page by page and copying them by hand, just to force himself to spend time on the construction of each sentence and the peculiarities of word choice. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jan 2, 2012 |
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Jan 2, 2012 21:45
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Besides her I'd use it about Cormac McCarthy too, without any shame, reproach or hesitation. Credit where credit is due.
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Jan 2, 2012 21:51
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Joramun posted:Besides her I'd use it about Cormac McCarthy too, without any shame, reproach or hesitation. Credit where credit is due. I think we could probably agree on that.
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Jan 2, 2012 21:51
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Joramun posted:For clarification, could you name some examples of whom you do consider to be writing at peak literary craft in genre fiction, if GRRM isn't it? Gene Wolfe quote:And could you, too, name some examples that illustrate what you consider to be genuinely good fantasy, if ASoIaF isn't it? Book of the New Sun
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Jan 2, 2012 21:56
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Dietrich posted:Yeah it's pretty unrealistic and I demand realism in my fantasy books. Somebody gets joaks
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Jan 2, 2012 22:28
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mind the walrus posted:Well we're honest that no one particularly likes or respects the others' opinions in here. I'm getting a Deep Blue Something's "Breakfast at Tiffany's" vibe from this. In the bad thread IRC we're a lot more like an extremely dysfunctional family. 
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Jan 2, 2012 22:36
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IRQ posted:In the bad thread IRC we're a lot more like an extremely dysfunctional family.
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Jan 2, 2012 22:40
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Joramun posted:I.e. the Lannisters. Sure, but we all poo poo water. No gold. Here are some easy instructions from our neo-fascist friend Riso: Riso posted:A small faq:
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Jan 2, 2012 22:46
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Without the incest or the murder of people who talk bad about us, or the obsession with our reputation, yes. Oh wait, that's all the Lannisters are. As for literary craft in Fantasy, Susanna Clarke really is as good as it gets, in some senses. The main problem is that it's hard to tell how much is genuinely her and how much of it is her uncanny ability to mimic the style of the Regency Period. I haven't read any prose by her done in a more modern style so I simply can't tell.
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Jan 2, 2012 22:49
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Susanna Clarke isn't located in the fantasy section of the bookstore though 
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Jan 2, 2012 22:54
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bigmcgaffney posted:Susanna Clarke isn't located in the fantasy section of the bookstore though
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Jan 2, 2012 22:56
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Joramun posted:On Amazon she is. Welp sorry for the error excuse me while I go kill myself
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Jan 2, 2012 22:58
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What about Rushdie's Grimus? Bakker is great.
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Jan 2, 2012 23:37
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St0rmD posted:Gene Wolfe Yeah I would def say this too except it's sci fi, even though it kinda masquerades as fantasy when it starts out.
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Jan 2, 2012 23:48
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Is it out yet?
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Jan 3, 2012 00:40
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Ross posted:Is it out yet? Sure is. Of the closet, that is. asoiaf a gay series yall.
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Jan 3, 2012 02:03
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Freddie Mercury never died. He just gained a lot of weight, grew a beard, and moved to New Mexico. 
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Jan 3, 2012 02:08
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Pretty sure Freddy Mercury was talented.
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Jan 3, 2012 02:34
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Maytag posted:What about Rushdie's Grimus? As far as I'm concerned Salman Rushdie's first book was Midnight's Children. And his last was The Satanic Verses.
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Jan 3, 2012 04:23
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Grimus is one of my all time favorites, and I really enjoyed Shalimar the Clown and Rage. The Haroun stories were also a nice diversion.
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Jan 3, 2012 04:58
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Rushdie is automatically awesome for the overwhelming smugness he possesses.
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Jan 3, 2012 05:19
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bigmcgaffney posted:Rushdie is automatically awesome for the overwhelming smugness he possesses. 
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Jan 3, 2012 05:51
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Obligatory statement about the insanely hot women he seems to bag, and that you'd be smug too blah blah blah blah
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Jan 3, 2012 05:57
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mind the walrus posted:Obligatory statement about the insanely hot women he seems to bag, and that you'd be smug too blah blah blah blah I was going to say the same thing, but about winning the Booker of Bookers. Who cares about hot women?
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Jan 3, 2012 06:12
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