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Young Freud posted:Which he probably would have done if he wasn't crippled by the Kelvin, which led to his capture by the Klingons. Of course, this would have been easier explained if they hadn't cut out Nero's imprisonment and escape. Why not do it after he escaped? Why head over to Vulcan (a federation core world) alone and start poo poo first? Sure it might be tempting, but even basic reasoning makes saving the home world the priority. Especially since his family man status was so important to his personality... Uh supposedly. Why not do it at any point in the film? Sure the Romulans would be suspicious, but giving them a free super ship with sensor logs of the home world blowing up would probably be enough to convince them to watch out for it. Edit: In an effort to figure this poo poo out for myself I made the mistake of reading the Nero article on Memory Beta. Apparently in a comic book V'Ger wanted to make love to the Narada, and since Nero was on drugs he had a psychic link between the two. Welp. I still really like Star Trek (2009), but maybe I just need to accept it for the thrill-ride it is. It's too bad - Nero had a lot of potential as a cool character. If it was handled better, he could have easily been Spock's Khan. Akalies fucked around with this message at 23:37 on May 10, 2012 |
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May 10, 2012 22:36
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Young Freud posted:
Except that would have been another twenty minutes without Chris Pine or Zachary Quinto, and who the gently caress wants that?
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May 11, 2012 01:10
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I have always been confused by the beginning of the movie. So Nero is chasing after Spock and they get sucked back in time. Then they see the Kelvin. Captain goes aboard Nero's ship and he tells him the stardate, and then Nero all of a sudden gets pissed even though he is back in time to a point where he can actually do something about saving his planet?
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May 11, 2012 01:30
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Yeah but his wife is still dead / not born yet.
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May 11, 2012 02:41
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I just don't get why he's blaming spock for a natural supernova, which (as far as I know) no one caused, and he lashes out at the person who was actually trying to help. Because hey, everyone can stop what's probably the most primal powerful force in creation, right? drat YOU SPOCK! Not to mention, say he gets his wish and wipes out spock and the federation. Doesn't change what's gonna happen with the supernova! I suppose they could colonize a planet that they destroy... well, no, can't do that either since they disintegrate the planets. I dunno, I gripe because it just feels like a shoehorned-in conflict. Why not just skip all that altogether, and have it stem from something back in their history like the vulcan-romulan racial split? They're supposed to be the same originally, right? Some civil war ages past which caused the two societies to split, and Spock is a descendant from some guy or clan who killed off Nero's ancestors. Basic old school clan revenge story, but I would buy it a lot more than the above. He could also target the federation since they've allied with vulcan. The only thing missing is time travel, but since he seems to have borg tech, that problem is solved too. There! Same story, but different motivations, and the pieces still fall the same.
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May 11, 2012 18:26
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I took it to be because he was full of rage and none-too-intelligent.
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May 11, 2012 18:39
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Noxville posted:I took it to be because he was full of rage and none-too-intelligent. Nero's basically a space redneck and Spock's space Obama who failed to save his hometown, his wife, and unborn child from getting flattened a natural event. Of course he's going to think there was some sort of conspiracy and Spock wanted Romulus destroyed after all and the only reason he went to save it was to get everyone's hopes up.
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May 11, 2012 18:42
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NarkyBark posted:I just don't get why he's blaming spock for a natural supernova, which (as far as I know) no one caused, and he lashes out at the person who was actually trying to help. Because hey, everyone can stop what's probably the most primal powerful force in creation, right? drat YOU SPOCK! The implication I always got was that Spock was a respected personality on Romulus due to his decades of work for unification. Furthering that, based on the mind-meld with Kirk, I always got the idea that Spock arrogantly told the Romulans that though the sun was going to go nova, he would -- not could -- stop it, and they put their faith in him. Imagine the propaganda from the Romulan government: "Ambassador Spock is developing technology of blah blah blah to prevent the blah blah blah and it will protect our planet." Then, boom, sun goes nova, Romulus goes boom, and you have one really pissed-off Romulan captain, who first moves to destroy Spock's ship and then gets caught in the black hole in the process.
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May 11, 2012 22:32
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There's actually some comic I somehow got a hold of before the movie came out that explains all this in depth but lord knows where I got it or what happened in it. I remember Geordi designed that space ship. And I think Spock was going rogue to help Romulus and the other Vulcans refused to help him or something. I don't know, it all made perfect sense when I saw the movie.
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May 11, 2012 22:38
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Role Play McMurphy posted:There's actually some comic I somehow got a hold of before the movie came out that explains all this in depth but lord knows where I got it or what happened in it. It still doesn't really explain why Nero hates Spock, other than general crazy. I guess all that Romulan propaganda about Vulcans and the Federation gave him a conspiracy theory fall back when his world was destroyed, but there's still no actual reason given for him to hate Spock so much. It's just Spock trying as hard as he can to stop it, failing, Nero killing a bunch of the remaining Romulans in order to get Borg tech so he can gently caress up Spock and the Federation, intercepting Spock as he tries to stop the continuing blast wave, black hole, and then the movie picks up the story. Really all reading the tie in comic does is make you less empathetic to Nero. Well, that and you get some nerdy cameos as all the TNG people show up in what are essentially Where Are They Now situations. Everything you actually need to know about the scenario is told to you by Spock and Nero in the movie.
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May 11, 2012 23:27
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^^^Actually as much as I hate being the nerd going 'well if you read the tie in comics...' they are legit kinda good reads that really humanize Nero as more than the chump who shrieked "FIRE EVERYTHING" as his last words, if you are going 'wait Nero is a loving idiot', try to get your hands on the tie-ins. They do a good job showing him as a kinda dumb dude with a whole lot of very understandable rage feeling like he has nothing left to lose. He's dumb and desperate and you can kinda understand that in his context, and the comics do a decent job showing him as a man with nothing to live for (family is big in his part of Romulan culture, his wife/kid being dead means he basically has nothing). Noxville posted:I took it to be because he was full of rage and none-too-intelligent. Yea remember he's not a politician or soldier or whatever, he's a loving miner. He saw his people wiped out and that drat Vulcan nearby, so he went "FUCKIN VULCANS!!!!" and built a death ship. Basically Nero is a most likely poorly educated dude with a lot of rage and access to a gently caress you space cruiser, and let's not forget Romulans regardless don't care for Vulcans, so finding one to point to to go 'that motherfucker!' is easy. For a bigger answer, Spock basically went rogue to defy Federation choices and help Romulus to honor his father's works, so basically when the guy who, for a long time, has gone 'listen, I want to help, let me help' seemingly isn't around for the literal worst thing to happen, it's kinda easy to go 'oh gently caress you, Spock'. sexpig by night fucked around with this message at 00:44 on May 12, 2012 |
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May 12, 2012 00:39
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Glitterbomber posted:^^^Actually as much as I hate being the nerd going 'well if you read the tie in comics...' they are legit kinda good reads that really humanize Nero as more than the chump who shrieked "FIRE EVERYTHING" as his last words, if you are going 'wait Nero is a loving idiot', try to get your hands on the tie-ins. They do a good job showing him as a kinda dumb dude with a whole lot of very understandable rage feeling like he has nothing left to lose. I did not get that at all from them. They start out humanizing him a little, and then he goes around rescuing government leaders to get secret codes from them and then dump them in space, uses those codes to infiltrate a double top secret Romulan base to force upgrades to his ship with Borg tech and then goes on a hunt for completely misplaced vengeance. The comics even make it worse because you see how hard Spock is working to save Romulus only to have this crazy dude blame him.
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May 12, 2012 04:13
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Wait, Nero built a death ship? I always assumed that was how the Romulan miners rolled, in giant planetcrackers that had dual-use equipment that would be considered beyond state-of-the-art weaponry in the 23rd century. Like, they're not even firing photon torpedoes or any other real weapons at the feddiepunks, they're throwing out autonomous mining probes with seismic charges that just happen to penetrate TOS-era shields and gently caress up TOS-era ships. Like, the real Romulan warships are running around with thalaron emitters and fire-through cloaking fields and other high-end weapons. You know, I don't even think they're carrying personal disruptors, it looks more like rivet guns. That whole "Nero built a death ship following Romulus' destruction" seems less cool in my eyes than "disgruntled miner goes on rampage after Spock fails to save his wife".
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May 12, 2012 04:37
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It works in the context of Romulans though. Like, Romulan 'special ops' involves a poo poo ton of murder because you don't leave any loose threads, but it's all for a purpose and for a solid goal rather than 'MY FAMILY IS DEEEEEAD'. He understands what the Romulan 'special forces' would do in this situation, but he doesn't understand the actual details that come with years of training.. The vibe I got from it was pity because he basically is the equivalent of some redneck who fetishizes the Navy Seals, and when he faces a great loss he gets revenge 'Seal style' with a shitass M16 and a crude understanding of 'special ops'. His anger being misplaced is the whole point of the character, you're supposed to think 'man if he spent half the time of this project not being insane he could maybe do some real good for the Romulan refugees.' Instead, he looks at Spock and goes 'hey, gently caress that dude for not being magic and somehow stopping a supernova'. Maybe I'm just weird but I was left feeling sorry for Nero rather than thinking he was dumb. Also yea, he built the gently caress off ship, refit mining gear would be cool as hell though.
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May 12, 2012 05:51
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Young Freud posted:Wait, Nero built a death ship? Yeah, I always figured figured the same thing, like how we probably couldn't doshit to federation TOS era equipment and civil war era stuff probably couldn't do much damage to modern mining poo poo. Hell the modus operandi of drilling into the core of a planet and blowing it up that way fits what I imagine super advanced space mining equipment could do. Edit: Part of me suspects the screenwriters and JJ Abrams had nothing to do with the comic tie ins, and you shouldn't need them to make sense of the movie anyways, so I'm going to continue to think that's how it was. Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 07:03 on May 12, 2012 |
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May 12, 2012 07:00
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No, I'm pretty sure the screenwriters at least outlined the plot of the comics and got story credits. All they are is basically an extended cut of the whole mind-meld backstory so it was material they came up with anyway. In my experience the comics made Nero's motivations make more sense, not less, I feel like I was misunderstood. Edit: Here's the plot summary: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Countdown#section_2
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May 12, 2012 07:09
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When you look at the whole comic backstory it just seems like Spock was a convenient scapegoat for the Vulcans as a whole failing to help the Romulans. At least Spock actually tried to do something, even if it failed.
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May 13, 2012 00:01
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Actually if I recall, Nero's ship gets outfitted with borg weaponry and stuff.
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May 13, 2012 02:13
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I agree with Young Freud. I've always been a much bigger fan of the idea that Nero's ship is just a huge loving mining ship with technology a century or more ahead of TOS-era stuff, and that's why it is able to tear through them so easily when it would probably be torn to shreds by the "modern" equivalents of the Enterprise from its own era.
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May 13, 2012 02:40
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Gyges posted:I did not get that at all from them. They start out humanizing him a little, and then he goes around rescuing government leaders to get secret codes from them and then dump them in space, uses those codes to infiltrate a double top secret Romulan base to force upgrades to his ship with Borg tech and then goes on a hunt for completely misplaced vengeance. The comics even make it worse because you see how hard Spock is working to save Romulus only to have this crazy dude blame him. I know I've joked that JJTrek is far closer to Nemesis than most people realize, but drat. Bald, Romulan miner nobody rapidly, inexplicably gains power and builds a Super Comic Book Ship of Spikes and Super Weapons in a top secret Romulan base and goes out for misplaced vengeance against $MAJOR_TREK_CHARACTER, with the intent of destroying Earth with his gigantic planet-killer. Crackpipe fucked around with this message at 05:21 on May 13, 2012 |
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May 13, 2012 05:19
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That's pretty much the point. Nero is the personification of Nemesis, and when he appears in 'the original series', it's tied into Bones' speech about how space is full of disease and death. Folks looking for rational motivation and such miss the point that he is just crazy and stupid, not really understanding (or caring to understand) the implications of his time-fuckery. He's all avenging people who haven't died yet, and killing people who haven't done anything yet. "I saw it happen! Don't tell me it didn't happen!" The film uses this conceit to depict Nemesis as a disease that the series needs to be cleansed of - the embodiment of Bones' pessimistic, cynical outlook. And that's related to the body-horror-comedy of Kirk with the hosed-up hands, the bleak fuckin' ice planet, and generally how the Kobiyashi-Maru is all about making a person experience hopelessness. That is, until Kirk uses his foreknowledge of the test's outcome to 'go back in time', changing his fate by altering the program. Much like Old Spock does, right? It's a microcosm.
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May 13, 2012 10:59
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I think Trek09 is Nemesis done right. Both are grabs for mainstream attention with a more action-heavy, blockbustery approach, but in Nemesis it's an insanely awkward fit done by people who don't know how to make it work and just reeks of desperation- it's like a 49 year old guy slathering on Axe and going to a frat party to pick up chicks. (This also applies to much of Enterprise.) Trek 09 starts with a clean slate and makes the approach work.
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May 13, 2012 15:47
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Jerusalem posted:I agree with Young Freud. I've always been a much bigger fan of the idea that Nero's ship is just a huge loving mining ship with technology a century or more ahead of TOS-era stuff, and that's why it is able to tear through them so easily when it would probably be torn to shreds by the "modern" equivalents of the Enterprise from its own era. I'm in agreement on this when it come to the how and why Nero's ship is able to wreck the poo poo out of pre-era TOS ships, and I say pre-era because the Enterprise in Trek 09 was 100% state of the art at the start of that movie on the timeline. I mean Nero is a really pissed off space red-neck that has a fetish for his species military and through sheer dumb luck gets transported back in time 150 years to where even his low tech mining equipment can destroy anything it comes up against in the same way that transporting Killdozer back to Gettysberg would see it wreck the poo poo out of anything it went up against. Pit Nero up against the Enterprise E and he gets squashed as fast as Killdozer would be if it went up against an M1-A1.
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May 14, 2012 23:03
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Maxwell Lord posted:I think Trek09 is Nemesis done right. Both are grabs for mainstream attention with a more action-heavy, blockbustery approach, but in Nemesis it's an insanely awkward fit done by people who don't know how to make it work and just reeks of desperation- it's like a 49 year old guy slathering on Axe and going to a frat party to pick up chicks. (This also applies to much of Enterprise.) Trek 09 starts with a clean slate and makes the approach work.
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May 18, 2012 22:17
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TOOT BOOT posted:I wonder if they'll go with the head ridges on the Klingons this time. I'm hoping for Peurto Ricans in gold lamé.
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May 19, 2012 15:50
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So it was revealed that Cupcake is coming back. Also apparently he's in one of the comics that lead up to the new movie (which I don't know the canon level of but they're being written with the new movie's script in mind) and he's a character from TOS called Ensign Hendorff. Basically a nobody at the time but if he's back he'll probably be doing something important. Or dying. Who knows.
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May 26, 2012 15:15
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korusan posted:So it was revealed that Cupcake is coming back. Also apparently he's in one of the comics that lead up to the new movie (which I don't know the canon level of but they're being written with the new movie's script in mind) and he's a character from TOS called Ensign Hendorff. Basically a nobody at the time but if he's back he'll probably be doing something important. Or dying. Who knows. Who?
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May 27, 2012 02:54
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Terror Sweat posted:Who? The redshirt from the bar that Kirk sucker-punches. Kirk calls him "cupcake" and there's a call-back to it when he catches Kirk and Scotty after they beam themselves onto the Enterprise.
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May 27, 2012 03:00
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Terror Sweat posted:Who? I had to Google who the hell he was talking about and was able to find it. The security officer that gets in a fight with Kirk at the bar and, later in the film, arrests him aboard the Enterprise. LesterGroans fucked around with this message at 03:13 on May 27, 2012 |
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May 27, 2012 03:01
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That is literally the most inconsequential casting news I have ever heard. E. Unless you're Cupcake's friends and family of course.
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May 27, 2012 03:19
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I like it. Shows an attention to detail and internally consistent universe.
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May 27, 2012 04:49
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Terror Sweat posted:That is literally the most inconsequential casting news I have ever heard. Beats spergin' about Cumberbatch.
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May 27, 2012 04:54
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korusan posted:Beats spergin' about Cumberbatch. Clearly. Look at all the interesting conversation it's sparked.
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May 27, 2012 05:00
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Except the fact that the guy remembered that and used it over THREE YEARS LATER is one of the dumbest things in that movie.
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May 27, 2012 05:15
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Haha wtf how short is your memory? You think that's a plothole? I still remember what the kid that slapped my best friend in the face in the high school cafeteria said to him a decade ago, I'd definitely remember exactly what caused a bloody, bar-clearing brawl. Especially when they then went to Starfleet Academy together and saw each other on a regular basis. Get real. edit: no it's not vvv Role Play McMurphy fucked around with this message at 05:25 on May 27, 2012 |
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May 27, 2012 05:19
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Role Play McMurphy posted:Haha wtf how short is your memory? You think that's a plothole? I still remember what the kid that slapped my best friend in the face in the high school cafeteria said to him a decade ago, I'd definitely remember exactly what caused a bloody, bar-clearing brawl. Especially when they then went to Starfleet Academy together and saw each other on a regular basis. Get real. He didn't say it was a plothole, he said it was dumb. Which it kind of is. It's just a really long time before a small callback for the audience, and in the film itself it's a weird thing for him to remember.
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May 27, 2012 05:23
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ok, more accurately, its dumb writing. That guys entire existence in the film is just to deliver that dumb joke. The setup and payoff are like, an hour apart. They might as well have called him CADET PUNCHLINE in the credits.
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May 27, 2012 05:49
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I liked the delivery, the joke made me laugh in the theater. Still, with respect to the guy, that's basically like saying they're re-using a prop from the first movie.
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May 27, 2012 09:27
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In a sense this is no different than those nobody crew members who came back. That guy Leslie from the original series (always in the transporter room but was never really important) appears in Wrath of Khan, for example.
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May 27, 2012 17:12
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So has anyone posted this yet? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/9285164/How-Simon-Pegg-became-a-big-fish.html An interview with Simon Pegg where he says that Cumberbatch is not playing Khan. quote:Pegg is full of praise for Cumberbatch’s baddy, whom he describes as “not just another disgruntled alien. It’s a really interesting… sort of… thing,” he squirms. “Obviously I can’t talk about it.” Given internet rumours that Cumberbatch has been cast as Kirk and Spock nemesis Khan, will this be a very different “wrath of Khan” from the 1982 film of the same name? “It’s not Khan,” replies Pegg, annoyed. “That’s a myth. Everyone’s saying it is, but it’s not.”
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May 29, 2012 22:10
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