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babyeatingpsychopath posted:In that case, you know your current, and you can figure out if derating for heat still leaves you with enough ampacity in your wire. Of course, the current you use is the wattage rating of the socket on the sconce. Note that derating #14 wire 90% still leaves you the ability to run a 100W light bulb.
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May 15, 2012 22:40
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I said gently caress it and ran it through a different way. Next question: I am rehanging a chandelier that has lamp cord. It has a ridged side and a smooth side with printing on it. Which side is hot? Google tells me that the neutral has to be identified somehow, with ridges or writing and the hot has to be smooth. The writing on the smooth is throwing me off. Do the ridges trump the writing in terms of identification?
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May 16, 2012 01:42
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Farside posted:I said gently caress it and ran it through a different way. The neutral is always larger and more apparent than the hot, i.e. the neutral prong on an ungrounded plug is wider, the neutral slot on the receptacle is wider to accommodate, the outer screw part of a lamp socket is neutral, and so on. In the case of lamps and fixtures, wire up the ridged side to be neutral.
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May 16, 2012 04:25
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If you've got a multimeter, just ring it out to verify. The outer sheath of the edison base should ring with wider tab on the plug. Likewise, the smaller tab should ring with the center of the edison base. It will light up the bulb even if you get it backwards, but you want the metal sheath to be grounded to reduce the risk of shocking yourself as you screw/unscrew a bulb.
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May 16, 2012 10:55
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Sorry I should have been more clear. This fixture is hardwired and does not have a plug. I called it lamp cord because that is what it looks like. Its all brown with the markings I posted about before.
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May 16, 2012 14:15
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Farside posted:Sorry I should have been more clear. This fixture is hardwired and does not have a plug. I called it lamp cord because that is what it looks like. Its all brown with the markings I posted about before. No problem, that's one of the names it goes by. It also goes by "zip cord" since it's easy to peel in two. You can still test it with a multimeter like grover said. Just test for a circuit between the outer screw part of any lamp socket and the ridged wire.
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May 16, 2012 15:46
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Okay, I pinged this thread a while back about running power to an external structure. I've now bought a house, and there's a shed at the back of it with floodlights, although I have yet to test them. So here's what I want to do: I want to build a greenhouse next to the shed, and run both power and water out to the greenhouse. If I were to dig a trench, would I need to have these two runs in their own trenches or separated by some minimum distance? If so, what do we think about daisy chaining the greenhouse off the shed so I'd only have to dig one trench for the water? Where do I go to find out about codes for this stuff in my area? (Harborcreek, PA.) I won't need a ton of power, but I will need at least enough to run some fans, pumps, and maybe a wifi router. That last because I'm a huge nerd and want to hook up some electronics to control all my greenhousery, and I also intend to have a nice little garden out there to hang out in. I may also like to run some ethernet (cat5, cat7, whatever) out there if the wifi isn't solid (thinking one router at the house, and one at the greenhouse to provide a physical network there, but if that bridge doesn't work well, I'd just run a physical line.) Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 21:11 on May 22, 2012 |
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May 22, 2012 21:09
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This is a question about wiring and circuit breakers for the electrician goons. The house I recently moved into has an outdoor laundry room. Inside it are the washer, dryer, and hot water heater. These 3 are wired into a sub-panel that has two dual-pole 30A breakers, and one single-pole 20A breaker. This box is then ran into the house by a single wire, and connected to a single dual-pole 30A breaker in the main box. The 30A breaker they're connected to in the main box keeps tripping. I'm trying to find out what I can do to fix this, or at least minimize the risk my house is going to burn down. The wire he's used is a 10/2 600v outdoor/sun rated wire. I have experience working under an electrician, so I can safely change the 30A breaker to a larger one, or install a better-rated wire if the one he currently has is a danger. I just don't have the knowledge of what to do here to fix this mess. From what I can see he originally just had the hot-water heater in the room, so everything was wired up fine for it. When he added the washer/dryer all he did was add two more circuit breakers to the sub-box without actually changing anything else of his setup.
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May 22, 2012 21:36
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General_Disturbed posted:This is a question about wiring and circuit breakers for the electrician goons. Bad Munki posted:I want to build a greenhouse next to the shed, and run both power and water out to the greenhouse. If I were to dig a trench, would I need to have these two runs in their own trenches or separated by some minimum distance? If so, what do we think about daisy chaining the greenhouse off the shed so I'd only have to dig one trench for the water? Where do I go to find out about codes for this stuff in my area? (Harborcreek, PA.) Look for International Residential Code, IRC. The electrical section is condensed from NEC and easier to follow. grover fucked around with this message at 21:45 on May 22, 2012 |
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May 22, 2012 21:42
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grover posted:That sounds like an awfully small circuit for all that stuff. Also, is it #10-2 or #10-3 cable? I hope it's not using the ground as a neutral! The fix would be to pull #6-3 cable, which would let you up it to 60A and properly wire up the neutral. If it's a seperate structure, it's required to have a 4-wire feeder, three won't cut it and it's required to be connected to a separate grounding electrode system. There's no way a 30 amp circuit will be large enough to run a washer, dryer and hot water heater. Most dryers are on a 50 amp circuit, the the washer requires a 20 amp laundry circuit, then add the water heater (I'm not familiar with electric water heater sizes) and you may need to up your sub-panel quite a bit. A 60 amp feeder might be enough but I doubt it. General_Disturbed: if you can post the nameplate info off the dryer and and water heater as well as if there are any additional circuits, we can help you size the feeder. I'd probably start though, by determining if this is actually a "seperate structure".
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May 22, 2012 22:22
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The cable is 10-2, 600v outdoor/sun cable. It is a separate structure. He has the cable ran from the main fusebox through the attic, out the back and across to the laundry room. I don't know what you mean by 3 or 4 wire feeder. His is one cable, with 3 wires inside it. One is the ground, that is just connected to the ground plate inside the two boxes. The other two are wired into the circuit breaker on the main box, and into the top power-input on the sub box in the laundry room. The hot water heater is ran directly into one of the 30A dual-pole breakers, and grounded in the box's ground. The other 30A is ran to a single dryer-outlet, that the dryer plugs into. The 20A is ran to a regular house-outlet, that the washer plugs into. It's currently dark out, and I can't see worth a drat at night, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow to dig up the information on the dryer and hot water heater. If I'm not explaining it well, the way he has it ran, the sub-box is being powered off the single 30A breaker in the main-box. And the sub-box has two 30A and one 20A, that are connected to the hot-water heater, dryer, and washer. Ideally I'd like to just switch out the 30A in the mainbox to something large enough to run the sub-box, without burning my house down. Once I get the money I can pay an electrician to come in and fix it, because the main-box is a nightmare in itself, but I'm just looking for a solution now until I have the money.
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May 23, 2012 00:12
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You can't safely switch out the 30A breaker without up-sizing the wiring at the same time. That breaker tripping is a nuisance, but it's also what is keeping the wiring from starting a house fire when your appliances are in use.quote:If it's a seperate structure, it's required to have a 4-wire feeder, three won't cut it and it's required to be connected to a separate grounding electrode system. This is not correct, the sub-panel should have the same ground reference as the main panel. If you connected it to a separate system then you're potentially turning the ground wire into a current-carrying conductor. The ground bus in the sub-panel should just be connect to the ground bus in the main panel (which itself has a grounding electrode conductor to cold water pipe, ground rod, etc). Papercut fucked around with this message at 00:25 on May 23, 2012 |
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May 23, 2012 00:18
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Bad Munki posted:I may also like to run some ethernet (cat5, cat7, whatever) out there if the wifi isn't solid (thinking one router at the house, and one at the greenhouse to provide a physical network there, but if that bridge doesn't work well, I'd just run a physical line.) If you do end up doing this, low voltage wire isn't allowed to share the same raceway as line voltage. Besides, running data parallel nearby to line voltage introduces all kinds of crosstalk. Run it in a separate trench. Also, they do make cat5 & 6 rated for direct burial.
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May 23, 2012 01:34
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Papercut posted:This is not correct, the sub-panel should have the same ground reference as the main panel. If you connected it to a separate system then you're potentially turning the ground wire into a current-carrying conductor. The ground bus in the sub-panel should just be connect to the ground bus in the main panel (which itself has a grounding electrode conductor to cold water pipe, ground rod, etc). You're right, I was in a hurry and got ahead of myself. General_Disturbed posted:I don't know what you mean by 3 or 4 wire feeder.. 3-wire feeders used to be allowed to a separate structure: 2 hot wires 1 neutral/ground Now it's required to be 4-wire: 2 hot wires 1 neutral 1 ground The ground and neutral can and must be connected to each other only in the main panel. They cannot be connected to each other in the sub-panel.
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May 23, 2012 03:03
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kid sinister posted:If you do end up doing this, low voltage wire isn't allowed to share the same raceway as line voltage. Besides, running data parallel nearby to line voltage introduces all kinds of crosstalk. Run it in a separate trench. Also, they do make cat5 & 6 rated for direct burial. Good point. Either way, I'm really hoping to just beam wifi out there (it's only about 300 feet, absolutely no obstructions even nearby) since it'll be a much easier installation.
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May 23, 2012 03:06
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Bad Munki posted:Good point. Either way, I'm really hoping to just beam wifi out there (it's only about 300 feet, absolutely no obstructions even nearby) since it'll be a much easier installation. At 300 feet you're stretching the limits of Cat5 anyway.
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May 23, 2012 18:36
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Well, that's certainly true. In any event, I should be able to avoid that whole mess and just shoot a signal across the probably-optimal-conditions yard, and just put a repeater out there.
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May 23, 2012 19:36
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I realized no one really answered your original questions, but here is the site I use for codes: http://bulk.resource.org/codes.gov/ The PA state codes are on there, and then you should look at your city or county's website (or contact the building department) to find out if they've adopted any amendments to the state code that may change the requirements. I've never run electrical in a joint trench with wet utilities, but I'm not sure if that's just because it's not allowed or just because it's better to separate them. You can see PG&E's (CA power utility) guide to joint trenches here, which only allows the two to be combined if there is a physical barrier as well as a 1' separation. This is for an incoming service so it's a lot more restrictive than what you're proposing, but it will at least give you some idea.
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May 23, 2012 21:22
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Is stealing electric meters a common occurence? I own a vacant home in a fairly affluent suburb and still have the electric service connected even though the usage is typically 0 kw hours per month. Imagine my suprise when I open the electric bill and it is for $346 for 2600 kwhrs. I drive over to check it out and find the fancy digital meter that the power company intalled in March is missing. It was not a true "smart meter", but a digital meter with a transponder that sends out the usage and identity number in a 2 mile radius to a truck driven around the city on a monthly basis. So apparently someone stole my meter, plugged it into their meter socket, used 2600 kwhrs of electric, and I get sent the bill. Clever, right? I won't be stuck with the power bill, but the electric company is forcing me to to upgrade the 50 year old mast, weather head, SE cable, meter socket and all associated fittings before they resupply my power. They say it's not a traceable meter so finding the person is nearly impossible, and since now there is no meter man going door-to door to read the meters, they won't be able to see who has tampered with their meter socket. The power company said they deal with stolen meters nearly daily and have about 200,000 individual customers. So is this happening elsewhere?
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May 31, 2012 21:44
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That just sounds like a terrible implementation of "smart" meters. Only once-a-month readings? gently caress that, my utility gives me daily breakdowns of peak vs off-peak usage.
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May 31, 2012 22:50
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So I live in the top floor of a duplex. There's a main breaker in the basement, with one extra circuit to run the basement power, and then a breaker panel upstairs. I opened up the basement breaker, and found that it's wired like this. Red is the outside power, blue runs to the upstairs breaker, and green is the basement circuit. From what I know, the supply and inside lines are reversed, right? Doesn't this mean that the 100a breaker is basically in backwards? Will it trip like that if we somehow need the main breaker to blow? Also, if I'm thinking about putting another circuit in the basement, would it be a problem with it wired this way? Am I going to need to get this rewired? To avert questions: I don't know if I'm allowed to do my own electrical, but I will find out before anything gets planned. Yes, I rent, but it's from family, so it makes more sense for me to be doing home improvement.
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Jun 1, 2012 03:08
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yeah it would still trip. But you are right, the incoming conductors should attached to the top of the bus bar, and then the breakers should feed the other branches. It was probably done because the cable you marked blue is too large for that breaker. Edit: it looks like you also need some to put a couple romex clamps on those conductors.
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Jun 1, 2012 06:10
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You don't usually use a MLO panel for a service entry. If that feeder is the main service entry, it would need to enter directly into the line side of a service-rated breaker, and would be illegal to use the main lugs. The actual architecture looks OK for overcurrent protection, a 100A breaker like that will trip just fine back-fed. What I am concerned about, though, is if that breaker is service-rated, which it probably isn't; they normally need to be rated for higher current that you can fit in a breaker that small, and must be bolted down due to the magnetic forces from the high fault currents blowing the breaker off the contacts. I'm a little concerned about the neutral/ground bond, too. Is it fed from another panel, or is that the first breaker after the meter? The main lugs are protected by the 100A breaker, so you're OK there. It wouldn't be an issue to put in another breaker to feed another circuit. grover fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Jun 1, 2012 |
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Jun 1, 2012 10:33
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grover posted:Is it fed from another panel, or is that the first breaker after the meter? It's the first breaker after the meter. There's actually two meters, and two of these, wired identically. What's interesting is that it seems to have passed inspection when it was installed, according to the inspection sticker on the cover. Now that you mention the neutral/ground bond, I took another look at that and they all go to the same bar. Some reading indicates that there should be separate neutral and ground bars, right? Should the sub-panel upstairs have its own main breaker for the panel, or is it normal for it to just have the various 10a/15a/whatever breakers for the circuits?
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Jun 1, 2012 18:22
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you ate my cat posted:It's the first breaker after the meter. There's actually two meters, and two of these, wired identically. What's interesting is that it seems to have passed inspection when it was installed, according to the inspection sticker on the cover. quote:Should the sub-panel upstairs have its own main breaker for the panel, or is it normal for it to just have the various 10a/15a/whatever breakers for the circuits? This just seems like a cheap, lazy install that's against best practices, but likely up to code.
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Jun 1, 2012 20:38
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you ate my cat posted:Now that you mention the neutral/ground bond, I took another look at that and they all go to the same bar. Some reading indicates that there should be separate neutral and ground bars, right? My only real concern is the rating of the 100A breaker.
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Jun 1, 2012 22:12
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grover posted:The neutral/ground bond is correct if that's the main service entry. Your other panels must have separate ground and neutral bars, though- if the panel upstairs is wired up the same way, it's wrong. The bare copper wire coming out of the box should be going to a ground rod. Another small thing, most brands require a hold-down bracket be installed on the main breaker on this type of installation. I can't tell what brand that panel is.
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Jun 1, 2012 22:24
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ncumbered_by_idgits posted:Another small thing, most brands require a hold-down bracket be installed on the main breaker on this type of installation. I can't tell what brand that panel is. grover fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Jun 1, 2012 |
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Jun 1, 2012 22:28
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grover posted:I'd mentioned that in my last post, too; part of my concern with the rating. There's a lot of force that has to be contended with. I've seen wires flopping around like spaghetti under fault conditions, and have heard stories of improperly tightened cables tearing free of lugs. Last thing you need is a breaker flying half off and holding an arc in open air. Sorry, missed it.
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Jun 1, 2012 22:32
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IOwnCalculus posted:That just sounds like a terrible implementation of "smart" meters. Only once-a-month readings? gently caress that, my utility gives me daily breakdowns of peak vs off-peak usage. TXU is now rolling out a "free nights" plan, though you have to upgrade to the newest smart meters. I've suggested it to my parents, since they live in an area serviced by TXU - but they have a  attitude toward smart meters and want to keep their 16 year old meter as long as possible. And apparently they're fine with paying their old fixed rate, despite TXU and a few others offering as low as 8c/kwh if you'll upgrade to a newer meter (I think they're paying 12-14). Of course, all the local media ran with the "SMART METERS ARE EVIL RARRRGGHHH" bit last summer when people had high electric bills... despite it being the hottest summer we've ever had.I'm a bit surprised they can transmit for 2 miles. So I guess that means whoever has that meter now has free electricity until the power company is out there for some reason? Thankfully electricity is included where I live now, but the city I'm in now has decided against deregulation, so who knows what kind of rates I'll see when I move. Denton City Council posted:On April 3, 2001, the Denton City Council decided to take the wait and see approach to electric deregulation. The decision was made that Denton Municipal Electric will not participate in deregulation until the market structure has had time to mature and proves to be beneficial to Denton customers. edit: holy poo poo found the rates, they're pretty drat cheap compared to Dallas. 5.7c per kwh in the summer, plus a flat $8.25/month charge. In the winter, 5.7c for the first 600 kwh, then 3.79c beyond that. That's a lot easier to swallow than the 12c I used to pay at my old place. randomidiot fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jun 2, 2012 |
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Jun 1, 2012 23:59
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some texas redneck posted:TXU is now rolling out a "free nights" plan, though you have to upgrade to the newest smart meters. I've suggested it to my parents, since they live in an area serviced by TXU - but they have a That really cheap 3.79c plan sounds too good to be true. Is that just power generation? I mean, does it include distribution, or is that added on top of that?
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Jun 2, 2012 00:14
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I pay 3.59c/kwh + $4.10/month.  At an old place I had a auto-read meter. It apparently had an internal battery that died, so the last two months I was there were estimated. The LCD display was blank even. I was ready to fight whatever bill they were going to send, but the company's estimates were really low-balled, like half of what I thought we actually used.
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Jun 2, 2012 00:33
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grover posted:The normal flat rate in VA is 8.5c/kWh; the lowest rates in the nation are in the high 7s right now. Everyone else is just getting ripped the gently caress off. It's 3.79c for everything over 600 kWh, and only in the winter. The first 600 is still 5.7c, and the rest of the year, 5.7 no matter how much you use. And there's still the $8.25 "facilities" charge. Still some of the cheapest electricity I've seen in Texas. But it's not a plan - you take it or leave it, there's no choices. The electrical system in this city is owned and run by the city. Here's the snippet from the city web page.  edit: I just found the "energy cost adjustment charge" page... it adds about 3c, on average, and seems to be adjusted twice per year.. Still a lot cheaper than what I used to pay. 
randomidiot fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Jun 2, 2012 |
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Jun 2, 2012 02:38
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A couple quick wiring questions here. I have this little corner of my basement: You can see that switch there, it controls four lights in the basement. Two of those lights are in a side room and have their own pull strings. More on that later. The back side is easily accessible:  The wire running off to the left goes to a switch at the top of the basement stairs which also controls the same lights, the wire at the top goes to the first bulb in the web of four. You can see that coming in from the right here:  The other three wires go to the second and third bulbs (one of which also has a pull string) as well as back to the panel. I want to build a desk/workspace into this corner along the length of the block wall, and I'd like to have power and lights (controlled independently of the basement lights) along the length of it. Is there any way to tie into this existing circuit over by the switch at the bottom of the stairs, or should I just run a new line from the breaker panel or thereabouts? Maybe put in a junction box (blue) and run some conduit (in red) as shown below? I'm guessing not, since by the time the wires get to where I need them, they're all controlled by the switches, but I was curious if there was some clever way to do this that wouldn't involve a whole new run.  Also, do I need to use conduit for such a thing, or is it okay to just use romex or whatever? Cost isn't really an issue but of course saving money is always good. Of course, I require that whatever I do here be up to code. Here's a crude map I drew that illustrates the current state of things as well as the location of my desired power. Nothing is to scale, but hopefully you sort of get the idea.  Of course, since it's all in the basement and everything is readily accessible, it'd probably be best to just run a new line, I guess I'm mostly just looking for a sanity check. If I want the basement to all be on the same breaker, would it be best to just clip the line before it hits the first bulb, put in a junction there (just left of the lower-left bulb in the map), and then run from there to the south wall and down to the level I need it at? Also, re: those two lights in the side room: how about I remove both the connections to the main room, hook the two lights together, and then put a switch on the wall just inside the room, which would in turn be connected to my new junction box? e: Oh, also, what's the right kind of box to use for this? Mounting on wooden joists/studs, and then on concrete if I have to on the south wall, but hopefully on some 2x4s that I'll mount on the wall as support structure for the desk. Metal, or plastic? Metal I guess? 
Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Jun 4, 2012 |
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Jun 4, 2012 04:48
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Ok. You have a 3-way switch at the bottom of the stairs. There's a constant hot in that. If you're lucky, it's also got a neutral. Not impossible, but improbable if the house is more than a couple years old. You obviously have a constant hot in the first light, and a neutral. If the pull-string lights can go on when the switches are off, then they've got hots. If not, it'd be trivially easy to switch some wire nuts around, drop the romex out of one of the lights and down to a switch. New romex from the switch to the light, then to the other light. If you've got clean grounds down there, then metal boxes are easiest to mount to masonry. If you're not going to fur out the masonry wall, then I think romex is out, as it has to be protected from physical damage. Someone can correct me on this; I don't have my code book handy. Basement means masonry in contact with earth, and that may mean "wet location" boxes mounted to it. Again, I normally have a code book handy to check. Easiest way is going to be come out of the first light to a j-box at the top of the wall. Down the wall with conduit, then plugmold/wiremold along the wall for your receptacles. If you get a good deal on wiremold, maybe do the whole run in that.
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Jun 5, 2012 00:30
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The house is pretty new, built in 2007. Very well built, too, I should post a picture of the panel and associated bits. The lights in that side room are slaves to the light switches, they just also have pull cords so you can leave them off when the basement light is on. I'm planning on putting pegboard up on the south wall where the new outlets are going to be, can I just run romex behind that down to a junction box under the bench I'm putting in?
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Jun 5, 2012 01:11
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Bad Munki posted:The house is pretty new, built in 2007. Very well built, too, I should post a picture of the panel and associated bits. Not unless you run it at least 1 1/2" behind, otherwise if romex is concealed, it must be protected from damage; conduit again. Romex really is quite fragile stuff. If you slip with a phillips-head screwdriver nearby, you can easily puncture all the way through to copper. It wasn't until 2011 code that all light switches were required to have neutrals going to them. In 2007, nobody I knew sent one to any switch except bathrooms (a common place for timers/dimmers/etc). You might get lucky, though.
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Jun 5, 2012 02:22
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I had an electrician install a new exterior panel and service entrance for my home I'm now rewiring the house (form K&T to NM) and thinking about how to feed the cable in to the panel. I'd like to do it through the 2.5" knockout on the back of the panel but the electrician mounted the panel so the knockout is RIGHT on a stud so it's inaccessible. Is my only option an LB coming out the bottom?
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Jun 5, 2012 02:39
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All righty, so, romex from the one bulb box, through the joists above, to another box at the top, and then conduit behind the pegboard to outlet boxes. That should be a pretty easy installation. 
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Jun 5, 2012 02:40
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If the conduit you are running in is going to be more than 24" in length you should probably mount a metal 4 square box as the junction box. That way you can switch to THHN in the junction box then run that in the conduit. Make sure to use all the proper fittings, use GFCI receptacles, etc. What kind of loads do you anticipate running? Will the circuit you are pulling power off of be able to handle the additional loads? Important to verify those things before splicing into the existing circuit. It might be a deciding factor as to whether or not you're going to pull in a new circuit.
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Jun 5, 2012 02:54
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