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It's really weird how half the posts on the last page are pointing out the 'moral' of the story (not dwelling on things) and the other half of the posts are admonishing the films for not being structurally the same as the old films.
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Feb 17, 2013 00:46
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I wonder, why does Nero feel kind of lame? I don't see where his acting is lacking; granted, his ship is a bit silly and he has the universal mark of people nobody will ever take serious, the face tattoo, but Bana is playing him fine, and he doesn't really have bad lines or anything. Yet, he doesn't really leave a mark. Why? Professor Clumsy posted:I think the only real flaw in Star Trek '09 is that the introduction of Nimoy as Spock really ruins what Quinto is doing with that character and Quinto is off screen the entire time that Kirk is with old Spock, so when he is reintroduced he has to rebuild that entire thing again, but it's the third act. It's like a massive crater in the film and it never really recovers. Right after we say goodbye to Nimoy on the ice planet, Quinto Spock has his second huge emotional outburst, easily subduing, and then choking, Kirk. Then, he himself realizes what he is doing, and first, steps back to make room for Kirk, and then, forward again to give him the support as a first officer. Quinto plays a barely controlled psychopath that could, any second, kill everyone around and is, while overtly human, emotionally actually totally alien to us hu-mans; he does have emotions, but they're so intense that he has to play a psychopath robot thing ... with a tiny hint of nerd ... That's Quinto's thing, of course, he's been doing that in Heroes, and American Horror Story, that's what he was hired for. And he shows us that Spock is still, like back in his childhood, a monster within, but that his brain is able to get back in charge ... by reminding himself of protocol. He's all about protocol, kneeling down before being transported, always citing regulations, and it's protocol that makes him give up captainhood. But he's following protocol to keep him from choking everybody the gently caress out when somebody implies he does not love his mother. Dude needs therapy. And he's doing this huge scene, making this point, that he's still a monster who'll bloody an inferior, right after we say goodbye to Nimoy Spock. So, I don't really see what you mean? Also, I wonder what Uhura is thinking while Spock is choking Kirk. She gives him the nicest goodbye the next second. E: here's the Trekcore gallery with screencaps of Spock beating up Kirk. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Feb 17, 2013 |
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Feb 17, 2013 01:03
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Cingulate posted:I wonder, why does Nero feel kind of lame? I don't see where his acting is lacking; granted, his ship is a bit silly and he has the universal mark of people nobody will ever take serious, the face tattoo, but Bana is playing him fine, and he doesn't really have bad lines or anything. His motives are just really stupid. He had no reason to take his anger out on Spock, and his assumption that Spock didn't even try or even intentionally allowed Romulus to be destroyed, was weak. And then he wants to destroy all of the Federation? It just doesn't make any sense. Nothing is established in the movie to explain any of his issues with half of the galaxy. Plus you would think someone on his crew would be like "yo, we kinda been out here for a few decades, you don't think this is batshit crazy?"
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Feb 17, 2013 01:07
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Yes okay, that makes sense to me. Seems there was quite some wasted potential of actually making him another Ahab. He didn't seem convincingly insane, just really angry for no good reason.
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Feb 17, 2013 01:08
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I said come in! posted:His motives are just really stupid. He had no reason to take his anger out on Spock, and his assumption that Spock didn't even try or even intentionally allowed Romulus to be destroyed, was weak. And then he wants to destroy all of the Federation? It just doesn't make any sense. Nothing is established in the movie to explain any of his issues with half of the galaxy. Plus you would think someone on his crew would be like "yo, we kinda been out here for a few decades, you don't think this is batshit crazy?" You might have noticed a recurrent motif in the film that when someone sees their planet explode taking everyone they loved with it, it unhinges them emotionally. Nero and his crew lost everything and they can't even mourn properly because they're forever cut off from the world they once knew. e: ^^ what do you mean 'for no good reason' he watched his planet burn and with it his family
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Feb 17, 2013 01:13
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Cingulate posted:I've thought about this for a bit, and I don't really get it. You're talking about the characterisation of Spock and Quinto's performance, but I do feel that Nimoy's presence detracts from it entirely. When we are reintroduced to Quinto as Spock, it is the start of the third act and these two characters are supposed to have bonded. but Kirk has been bonding with Nimoy so it feels a little off. It's like if you were watching Rory Kinnear do Hamlet and after the intermission he was replaced with Kenneth Branagh, only to be swapped back for the climactic scene. Kinnear's Hamlet and Branagh's Hamlet aren't the same thing. I don't think Quinto and Nimoy can play each other at different stages of their lives, but they're both great Spocks in their own right, putting them together detracts from the performance we should be watching, which is Quinto's.
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Feb 17, 2013 01:15
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Alchenar posted:You might have noticed a recurrent motif in the film that when someone sees their planet explode taking everyone they loved with it, it unhinges them emotionally. Yes, but how does that translate into "kill the guy who evidently tried to save you, also, kill all humans"? E: wait must reply to Clumsy Professor Clumsy posted:You're talking about the characterisation of Spock and Quinto's performance, but I do feel that Nimoy's presence detracts from it entirely. When we are reintroduced to Quinto as Spock, it is the start of the third act and these two characters are supposed to have bonded. but Kirk has been bonding with Nimoy so it feels a little off. It's like if you were watching Rory Kinnear do Hamlet and after the intermission he was replaced with Kenneth Branagh, only to be swapped back for the climactic scene. Kinnear's Hamlet and Branagh's Hamlet aren't the same thing. I don't think Quinto and Nimoy can play each other at different stages of their lives, but they're both great Spocks in their own right, putting them together detracts from the performance we should be watching, which is Quinto's. However, you said the movie nose-dives and never recovers. But, Quinto's Spock basically just started there! Before, we see him as a child, and then as a problem for Kirk, as a foil or whatever the proper term is. Spock's making the wrong decisions, what with sticking to protocol instead of doing what's RIGHT (following Kirk). Then, he makes the worst error, exiling Kirk ... and when Kirk returns, we learn that Spock's only following protocol in order to keep down his inner alien psychopath, and that we should be glad that he's being all protocol and poo poo, it's just that his proper role is that of a #1, not a captain ... And the bonding happens when Kirk realizes Spock out-males him by 1. beating him up, 2. getting the girl, so Spock can in good confidence play #2 (#1). All of their moments as two protagonists, not as protagonist and foil, happen after Nimoy. And isn't it rather that having seen Nimoy makes you more involved in Quinto, trying to see the connection, trying to see what's going on in Quinto-Spock's head that's similar and that's different to Nimoy-Spock? I see that pacing wise, the bonding might have come a bit late in the movie, but that's less a problem of having Nimoy on screen, and more a problem of anything that's not Kirk and Spock bonding happening there, right? I'd rather they cut the lame CGI monster chase (god that one was so BORING) and give us some more Kirk/Spock slash instead. Maybe some hint of mutual respect in face of being in violent disagreement even before the exiling. Or am I still missing what you're saying? Cingulate fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Feb 17, 2013 |
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Feb 17, 2013 01:15
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Nero's actions are especially stupid when you consider that in Countdown (the prequel comic), Spock is the one who does the most to save Romulus, and while he does fail, he did more than anyone to try and stop its destruction.
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Feb 17, 2013 01:33
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That's explicitly in the movie already though?
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Feb 17, 2013 01:34
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Cingulate posted:Yes, but how does that translate into "kill the guy who evidently tried to save you, also, kill all humans"? I think we're not quite talking about the same thing. You're talking about Quinto becoming "Spock" like a superhero origin story, I'm talking about an actor being off screen for what should be his most important scenes and replaced with someone who has walked that road a thousand times. I think it's boring because I want to be watching Quinto and Pine bond, not Pine and Nimoy, it doesn't mean anything.
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Feb 17, 2013 01:37
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Relevant: http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/6ec301e0aa/it-s-spock-do-you-care-with-zachary-quinto
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Feb 17, 2013 01:40
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Actually, Bana's getting a few good lines. "Hello." "I'm Captain Christopher Pike. To whom am I speaking?" "Hi Christopher, I'm Nero." Professor Clumsy posted:I think we're not quite talking about the same thing. You're talking about Quinto becoming "Spock" like a superhero origin story, I'm talking about an actor being off screen for what should be his most important scenes and replaced with someone who has walked that road a thousand times. I think it's boring because I want to be watching Quinto and Pine bond, not Pine and Nimoy, it doesn't mean anything. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Feb 17, 2013 |
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Feb 17, 2013 01:41
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Cingulate posted:That's explicitly in the movie already though? They left out what I guess you would call key bits of it though. They don't explain why Nero hates Vulcan and the Federation when Spock was trying to help. It also leaves out why Nero wouldn't just go hang out on Romulus and work to prevent the exploding star with his future tech and decades upon decades of preparation. In the comic the Vulcans actually hold up Spock after Nero defies the Romulan high command to transport Spock and the components of the red matter there to save Romulus. I can't remember if the Vulcan hindrance definitely makes it so Spock can't get there in time or not, but Nero believes it to be true. He arrives back to see Romulus gone and the Federation there. That's why he's blowing up Vulcan and proceeding on with the rest of the Federation, he sees them as responsible for Romulus' demise. He also despises Spock because he got Nero's hope up, causing him to forgo saving his wife and child on what turned out to be a fool's errand. It gives reason to his crazy that helps you understand why he continues even after finding out he's in the past and Romulus is safe. In the movie it just looks like he irrationally hates the dude who did everything in his power to help. Then when repeatedly told that Romulus is fine, he throws tantrums and without reason continues on with genocide.
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Feb 17, 2013 01:59
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Cingulate posted:If you're saying you'd have liked to see more Pine/Quinto - definitely. Absolutely, it should have been the heart of the film. This is exactly why I'm excited for this sequel.
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Feb 17, 2013 02:18
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Cingulate posted:Actually, Bana's getting a few good lines. Hello Nero! :)
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Feb 17, 2013 02:31
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Cingulate posted:I wonder, why does Nero feel kind of lame? I don't see where his acting is lacking; granted, his ship is a bit silly and he has the universal mark of people nobody will ever take serious, the face tattoo, but Bana is playing him fine, and he doesn't really have bad lines or anything. He's basically Schinzon and his ship is the Scimitar II. That's why. Same mistakes, different movie.
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Feb 17, 2013 03:35
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So on Friday I go to work, and the woman in the cube next to me had ACCIDENTALLY dressed up as Commander Riker. She had never seen TNG, and I tried to explain to her why it was funny, even showed her a picture. She thinks I'm an idiot now but she let me take a picture.  The god drat broach, seriously.
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Feb 17, 2013 04:16
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The Fuzzy Hulk posted:So on Friday I go to work, and the woman in the cube next to me had ACCIDENTALLY dressed up as Commander Riker. Commander Shelby NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
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Feb 17, 2013 04:25
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The Fuzzy Hulk posted:So on Friday I go to work, and the woman in the cube next to me had ACCIDENTALLY dressed up as Commander Riker. Probably safe to say this Riker looks better without the beard.
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Feb 17, 2013 06:25
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Cingulate posted:Can you give an example of these character arcs, Big Questions and depth from the old movies (preferably not the series) that you find JJTrek is missing? I think NarkyBark covered it pretty well. And to your later question, definitely yes. For me, it's the entire reason for scifi to exist.
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Feb 17, 2013 07:27
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Gyges posted:They don't explain why Nero hates Vulcan and the Federation when Spock was trying to help . . . Old spock straight up tells us (Kirk) this. Nero has like the simplest of villain motivations.
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Feb 17, 2013 09:11
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Timby posted:"James T. Kirk was considered to be a great man. He went on to captain the USS Enterprise ... but that was another life." You're kinda taking that out of context there. The 'other life' refers to the fact that Shatner's Kirk is dead. Nero mocks Pine's Kirk by declaring him an entirely different person, with no connection to the 'real' timeline. Nero does not consider his own life over because he cannot accept his own unimportance in the grand scheme of things. In the same way, he could not accept that his family dying was a random accident, and so decided that someone (Spock) must have rigged it to happen. He's a space-truther.
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Feb 17, 2013 10:21
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Going back to ships for a moment: the one thing I really liked about the JJ Trek Enterprise was that the warp nacelles were goddamned HUGE. Being that they create a pocket of space that travels at speeds far exceeding that of light, I liked the fact that they looked like they could have torn the ship apart if even the slightest small thing went wrong. Of course, it is correct that the engine room should have looked like the LHC instead of a brewery, since seeing giant cylinders of beer ruined the look entirely.
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Feb 17, 2013 19:55
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It's not beer, it's a hops-based lubricant and coolant. Renewable and green!
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Feb 17, 2013 22:16
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It's far more plausible for an engine room to look almost-exactly like a brewery than for an alien creature to look almost-exactly like a human being. Blammo!
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Feb 17, 2013 23:22
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's far more plausible for an engine room to look almost-exactly like a brewery than for an alien creature to look almost-exactly like a human being. Blammo! 
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Feb 17, 2013 23:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's far more plausible for an engine room to look almost-exactly like a brewery than for an alien creature to look almost-exactly like a human being. Blammo!  Realism trumps Style, every single time 
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Feb 17, 2013 23:51
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Good style trumps everything. Lame style's just lame. But, I'm not even sure I personally dislike the brewery, I just found the Guybrush Threepwood scene there way too boring.
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Feb 18, 2013 00:07
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Cingulate posted:But, I'm not even sure I personally dislike the brewery, I just found the Guybrush Threepwood scene there way too boring. I don't know what this means, and I've played a Monkey Island game before.
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Feb 18, 2013 06:18
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's far more plausible for an engine room to look almost-exactly like a brewery than for an alien creature to look almost-exactly like a human being. Blammo! Its far more plausible as an engine room than anything we see in Trek anyway. I mean, you have this reactor smashing together matter and antimatter and generating enough energy to warp the fabric of space. What do you do with this highly dangerous reaction? You put it in a translucent tube! Why? What the gently caress purpose could it have, is an engineer going to walk up to it and say "oooh yes, the glowy bits are really cranking now, business as usual down here!" It just takes all the tension away from potentially cool sequences. "I need more power!" "AUGH Captain, I'm pressing all these buttons and looking frustrated! Wheres the make engine go improbably faster button on this incomprehensible LCARS display?!" People should be running around, banging on poo poo, pulling out components and slamming them back in, levers should be pulled. Action is about movement, Trek as a rule has all its action reduced to some dude pressing buttons on an iPad. That's why Trek 09 resonated better, guns have flippy bits, there are buttons to be pushed, even the touchscreen displays actually show something happening rather than static buttons and generic incomprehensible animation 1. The brewery isn't optimal but Ill take it over the boredom that is Star Trek technology any day.
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Feb 18, 2013 08:27
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I like the brewery because it has a low-budget, exploitation aesthetic to it. How many 'bad' sci-fi films take place in a refinery doubling as a space station, or something? Star Trek literally has its sleek, iPod bridge built on top of one of these cheap location shoots. It's the foundation. Other Star Treks lack this contrast between upper and lower, idealism and practicality, brain and guts, and so-on. The brewery is basically the bathroom that has been conspicuously absent from the enterprise for decades. Where did everybody poo poo?
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Feb 18, 2013 10:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I like the brewery because it has a low-budget, exploitation aesthetic to it. How many 'bad' sci-fi films take place in a refinery doubling as a space station, or something? Star Trek literally has its sleek, iPod bridge built on top of one of these cheap location shoots. It's the foundation. Other Star Treks lack this contrast between upper and lower, idealism and practicality, brain and guts, and so-on. The brewery is basically the bathroom that has been conspicuously absent from the enterprise for decades. Where did everybody poo poo? It looks great in the intro with the Kelvin because it is just this very industrial space and you only see it in brief fragments that are all iron girders and steam and explosions. When the Captain gets off the turbolift it's clear that he's walked into the underbelly of the ship and then with a few steps he's gone. In contrast the extended engineering shots on the Enterprise make it impossible not to see the fact that they're running round a brewery and pretending that's it's a future engine room. e: also it's empty. Kirk and Scotty beam in and there's nobody monitoring the equipment doing stuff. They have a run around some empty gangways. In the end Scotty ejects the warp-core and he seems to be the only one there. The film doesn't show off a working space, it shows off a space where things are placed in large drums and then left to ferment. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Feb 18, 2013 |
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Feb 18, 2013 11:02
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So what we're actually saying is it would be better if the brewery set was used for the ship's sewage and water processing system, which we still have indeed never seen.
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Feb 18, 2013 11:36
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qntm posted:So what we're actually saying is it would be better if the brewery set was used for the ship's sewage and water processing system, which we still have indeed never seen. I suspect that's how it was written, but the producers did not like an extended sequence of Scotty trapped in tubes of urine.
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Feb 18, 2013 11:59
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I had no idea a brewery was being used as the engine room until it was pointed out in the making-of segment on the Blu-ray 
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Feb 18, 2013 12:46
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Cheap Trick posted:I had no idea a brewery was being used as the engine room until it was pointed out in the making-of segment on the Blu-ray It's kinda obvious when they go to Uhura's station in 'Communications' or wherever that's supposed to be and it's just a row of people sitting in front of a couple of huge beer vats.
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Feb 18, 2013 12:52
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Unless you don't know what the inside of a brewery looks like.
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Feb 18, 2013 13:21
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Aatrek posted:Unless you don't know what the inside of a brewery looks like. Pretty much!
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Feb 18, 2013 13:33
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Hewlett posted:I don't know what this means, and I've played a Monkey Island game before.
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Feb 18, 2013 15:28
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Maybe that water is that heavily oxygenated stuff you can breathe, so Scotty was actually totally fine.
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Feb 18, 2013 15:34
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