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No one's singing praises about how high-art these anime movies are dude, I think that's just your imagination; the award the movie won wasn't even for the content but for the direction. Also I'd like to point out that you're literally directing your statements at Anno, something those zealous fans all those years back did, and we know how nutty and entitled those guys were.
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May 12, 2013 01:44
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ViggyNash posted:I'll agree that Asuka would be really difficult to form a relationship with since she herself is quite unstable. However, Shinji never seemed to understand that there was something inherently different and odd about Rei and never questioned it. He wanted to believe that she was a normal person and wanted her to accept him instead of the other way around. That' why he never really got to close to Rei. Except he did get close to her, both in the original series and in Rebuild. They're just both terrible at expressing it because Shinji is introverted in the extreme and Rei is near-literally autistic. EDIT: Although not close in the relationship sense because, again, she's a clone of his mother.
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May 12, 2013 05:24
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Not really sure how people get so deeply invested into this anime, it's not like watching LOST where you were enduring tons of episodes to get your answers (which never came). It's fun to talk about the mythology behind this show and predict what may happen, but it's not like the Eva series is some huge time sink.Sloth Socks posted:But, christ, it feels so whitewashed and smeared in the NGE marketing BS & products that followed the series completion. Worse yet, the symbolism comes faster & harder, but is more meaningless amid the glut of teeth-in-earth, spire-from-purple-crater - and then there's the pedophilia. "Curse of EVA" is so nauseating not only because wow, you sure want that one-eyed Asuka, huh Anno/Gainax, but also because the team seems to be deliberating avoiding any maturation of storytelling or an advancement of plot. How great would that have been to have had older characters, after years of conflict? Instead, we have the same poo poo, repackaged, but with cleaner textures. It's storytelling by companies, rather than authors. Why are you so angry about marketing and products? That's like getting angry about the spider-man franchise because they sell a lot of merchandise, it's part of the business. It's made as a bi-product, it's not like they're waving around figurines of Rei in the movie, telling you to buy them. So what, they want to make extra money from a popular franchise, how does this affect your enjoyment of a few anime movies? If you really find the nudity in Eva offensive, then you really don't know much about entertainment and anime in general. Personally I'd love it if they kept it out, but there's a ton of shows which do far worse, both live action and in cartoons. The vast majority of what you've been complaining about is present across the board in all forms of entertainment (anime or not!), not many break away from it. So what I'm saying is you're pointing this odd frustration of yours in the wrong place.
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May 12, 2013 05:31
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Eva marketing owns because you can buy a bucket that says NERV or a humidifier of nerv hq with EVA01 rampaging in it. At the low price of 100ish bucks.
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May 12, 2013 06:31
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Cubemario posted:Not really sure how people get so deeply invested into this anime, it's not like watching LOST where you were enduring tons of episodes to get your answers (which never came). It's fun to talk about the mythology behind this show and predict what may happen, but it's not like the Eva series is some huge time sink.
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May 12, 2013 06:37
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The meta-textual elements of Eva are interesting but personally I was more impressed by (what you could call) the deconstruction aspects - how it takes this fantasy scenario of a big hero schoolboy robot pilot and asks "what kind of hosed up situation would have to be going on in order for this to actually happen?" It's taking the genre conventions of "ok we have we have to have super robots, we have to have schoolkid pilots, etc" and solving the puzzle of how to justify all that while still retaining at least somewhat realistic/logical human behavior. Ultimately that's what all the mystical business with mothers' souls and giant demi-humanoids is for (at least on a literal story level) - it's showing us why this scenario actually makes sense. For the same reason, people who hate Shinji are (I would argue) misguided; his reactions aren't so unreasonable when you drop genre-thinking where the main character is reflexively an unflappable badass, and instead ask how a real kid would react when put into that kind of incredibly harsh and stressful situation. Most popular stories tell us how (the author believes) the world *should* be - Eva tells us how it *is*. (And no, obviously not literally in terms of the sci-fi elements).
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May 12, 2013 13:17
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Am I the only one who just likes the series because it's got some cool sci-fi and trippy poo poo with great music and animation? I mean, geez, I don't need to write a freakin' dissertation on why the creator of the show is saying I'm an idiot or that the whole thing is just making fun of certain types of nerds or whatever. Can't I just enjoy my freaky psudeo-religious giant bio-mecha series in peace?
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May 12, 2013 16:23
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JazzFlight posted:Am I the only one who just likes the series because it's got some cool sci-fi and trippy poo poo with great music and animation? Sure you could but didn't you get the feeling, while watching this movie, that it was about more than just the pretty colours? I know I did and so did others, so now we have this thread.
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May 12, 2013 16:37
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JazzFlight posted:Am I the only one who just likes the series because it's got some cool sci-fi and trippy poo poo with great music and animation? Sure, but I don't see why you feel the need to flap your arms about it.
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May 12, 2013 17:00
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JazzFlight posted:Am I the only one who just likes the series because it's got some cool sci-fi and trippy poo poo with great music and animation? I dunno, I feel like NGE is just one of those shows where you absolutely must acknowledge the subtext. There definitely are shows where I switch my brain off and just enjoy it at face value, I feel like 90% of the fun of Evangelion is analysing it because it's so rich in symbolism and metaphor. quote:See, I'd love it, if the text had a kind of self-awareness or had this metatextual level...but it doesn't. It kinda does, it's not only there it's ridiculously unsubtle about it. Curse of Eva is obviously a very pointed criticism of a certain section of the fanbase, I have no idea how you could have missed that to be honest. Seems like you're deliberately avoiding assessing it on any level but face value to criticise at it, yes the movie hitting the same beats as the series was very deliberate, you seem to have missed the point of rebuild entirely. Also I'm not sure how Gainax cashing in on Eva merch for the past decade affects your viewing of the Rebuild films at all? Yes they cashed in big time on it, how about you do what every other same person in the thread does and ignore it? Zahki fucked around with this message at 17:30 on May 12, 2013 |
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May 12, 2013 17:08
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In regards to the horses and music scene: it's clearly a reference to Blade Runner's dream sequence, with the unicorn. I mean come on it's got pianos, music and horses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhDDybv8_Ro This of course tells us that: Deckard/Kaworu is a Replicant/Angel 
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May 12, 2013 19:31
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SHISHKABOB posted:I think it's important to point out that Asuka, Rei and Kaworu weren't really the best people to form relationships with, all things considered. Same thing with almost all of the adults in his life. They're all pretty insane people with some serious problems. I kinda disagree with this. A lot of the people in Eva have Issues but that's part and parcel of being well, a human being in modern society. Bad relationships, bad decisions and everything else is a part of everyone's life. That's kind of Shinji's big issue in the original series, he puts everyone else on a pedastal while not realising that everyone else has issues like he does, but they're still managing to live somewhat normal lives while carrying those issues. Misato is obviously the poster child for this (see also: her scene w/ kaiji in eoe) but it honestly applies to most of the adults; Ritsuko for example is having an illicit affair but she barely lets it get in the way of her working life for most of the show, until she finds herself driven into a corner by Gendo.
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May 12, 2013 19:48
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You can (not) discuss (sub)text in this thread You can (not) accept any other opinion besides your own You can (not) calm down But no seriously I'm amazed people are able to pass judgment with such finality on Rebuild when 3.0 was nearly 100% setup and zero conclusion. And I'm equally amazed people feel like Eva is supposed to engage on only one level (colors and drugs/moneygrubbing cashgrab/profound symbolism/genre deconstruction/a nice story about poorly-raised kids being put through insane situations and trying to find love) and only that level (because it either appeals to them the most, or they feel like that is the sole premise of the work). I'd say Eva does a pretty great job of doing all those things. It's also completely connected in doing all those things, which is why it's both difficult and naive to keep trying to reduce it into these just incredibly narrow interpretations like "X character saying Y thing to Z's facial expression = gently caress you anime nerds" when it's more like, the entire gestalt has plenty of room for gently caress you anime nerds, hell yeah anime nerds, let's trying growing up anime nerds, and oh, also, this is a story that you can enjoy without being an anime nerd, because it engages on a fundamental loving human level. It's not just about you. It's not a goddamn rubik's cube or a puzzle or even a videogame where the sole purpose is to Figure Out What Symbolizes What. It's just pretty legit commercial art. Not even saying it's super deep. It's just really well done and provokes a shitload of human reactions while having a lot of fun and weirdness.
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May 12, 2013 21:37
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Gendo is cool we should all be like him.
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May 13, 2013 00:58
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Poniard posted:Gendo is cool we should all be like him. Really he was *this* close to being a literal god and if he had taken a bit more care with Rei she might have allowed him to do it. So yeah the path to immense power over all souls involves being almost as much of a douche as Gendo but not quite so transparently manipulative, I guess.
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May 13, 2013 01:20
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You don't ever go full Gendo.
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May 13, 2013 01:53
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yellowjournalism posted:But no seriously I'm amazed people are able to pass judgment with such finality on Rebuild when 3.0 was nearly 100% setup and zero conclusion. And I'm equally amazed people feel like Eva is supposed to engage on only one level (colors and drugs/moneygrubbing cashgrab/profound symbolism/genre deconstruction/a nice story about poorly-raised kids being put through insane situations and trying to find love) and only that level (because it either appeals to them the most, or they feel like that is the sole premise of the work). I may piss someone off for saying this but I kind of get the feeling that a lot of people have become so invested in writing off Eva as a slap-dash cash-grab with meaningless symbolism and a fandom full of "pretentious" suckers that, when presented with evidence that they may be wrong and NGE actually has some modicum of artistic merit, they flip the gently caress out and go into sunk-cost defense mode rather than admit they were wrong about something on the internet. These people don't want to look deeper than the surface of the work, because doing so may present them with evidence that they weren't actually as clever and ahead of the curve as they thought. As a tangent, its interesting to note that as far as I'm aware, Japanese society does not have the same "high art/low art" divide that the west does. Its entirely possible for a creator to make a work as a thought-provoking cultural analysis and a blatant cash grab at the same time, and see no contradiction in this. Superflat (an art movement actually partially inspired by evangelion) is an excellent example. Its roots are in taking the endemic super-cute aesthetic of anime and escalating it to the point of grotesqueness, sometimes by juxtaposing it with deliberately uncomfortable and ludicrous sexual imagery, but the very same artists who do this work don't see any particular fault in turning around and doing paid design work for the very same people they're openly mocking, sometimes in the exact same style.
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May 13, 2013 02:15
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ImpAtom posted:The fact that even you, someone who avoids anime, tuned in to Haruhi fits exactly with what the Evangelion producer talked about when discussing the Curse of Eva. He specifically pointed to Haruhi as an example of "school moe" and how it was a sign that anime has no meaningful future as it stands because of the hyper-focus on selling that sort of thing to adults. Can someone provide a link to interview or something? Sounds like an interesting read.
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May 13, 2013 04:38
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Undead Unicorn posted:Can someone provide a link to interview or something? Sounds like an interesting read. The interview is translated here: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/13182/Otsuki-Interview-November-2006/ Also the source of the term "curse of eva" I mentioned earlier.
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May 13, 2013 04:45
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That's a really cool interview. I particularly like his emphasis on simultaneously making the show more accessible to a younger, less attached audience and having it work as genre-encompassing commentary. Although I guess it doesn't reflect very well on everyone (myself included) who said "don't watch Rebuild without seeing the original series, it won't make any sense." 
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May 13, 2013 05:09
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Word, that was nice to read. Doesn't reflect poorly on the sentiment that you gotta watch the original series to fully appreciate Rebuild though.mr. stefan posted:I may piss someone off for saying this but I kind of get the feeling that a lot of people have become so invested in writing off Eva as a slap-dash cash-grab with meaningless symbolism and a fandom full of "pretentious" suckers that, when presented with evidence that they may be wrong and NGE actually has some modicum of artistic merit, they flip the gently caress out and go into sunk-cost defense mode rather than admit they were wrong about something on the internet. These people don't want to look deeper than the surface of the work, because doing so may present them with evidence that they weren't actually as clever and ahead of the curve as they thought. Hear hear! I really think NGE is amazing at nailing "art" from all sides like some kind of super hentai mindfuck gangbang I actually meant every word of that
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May 13, 2013 06:57
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Following up on that interview, do you guys consider the new Eva movies to have fanservice and cater to an older audience or not?
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May 13, 2013 11:12
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heiden posted:Following up on that interview, do you guys consider the new Eva movies to have fanservice and cater to an older audience or not?
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May 13, 2013 11:25
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Although I guess it doesn't reflect very well on everyone (myself included) who said "don't watch Rebuild without seeing the original series, it won't make any sense." Interesting that the interview claimed that they wanted Rebuild to set up Eva to be next Gundam in terms of long-running franchise. I wonder if they still plan to go ahead with that? If 4.0 sets up things well enough it might be worthwhile.
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May 13, 2013 11:27
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heiden posted:Following up on that interview, do you guys consider the new Eva movies to have fanservice and cater to an older audience or not? Gainax is gonna fanservice. They've never been against that. They're talking about moe, which is (ughhh) not exactly the same concept. When you watch Evangelion it should be infuriating and sad that the characters are helpless or without agency, not appealing; anyone who exploits or encourages characters staying in that juvenile state is at least doing the wrong thing, if they aren't portrayed as an outright monster. None of which interferes at all with their love of T&A, because what embarasses 40-year-old anime staff and what embarasses typical American audiences are two different things.
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May 13, 2013 11:44
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:When you watch Evangelion it should be infuriating and sad that the characters are helpless or without agency, not appealing; anyone who exploits or encourages characters staying in that juvenile state is at least doing the wrong thing, if they aren't portrayed as an outright monster. On that note it's quite amusing how the 3 main factions in the series (NERV/Gendo, SEELE, and the Angels) are all trying to achieve almost exactly the same thing, with the difference more in the details. I wonder if they could have reached a negotiated settlement without all the fighting and conspiring. ShardPhoenix fucked around with this message at 13:17 on May 13, 2013 |
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May 13, 2013 13:15
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ShardPhoenix posted:Gendo is one thing, but I thought Misato was quite heroic (and probably the most admirable character overall) in the original series, despite clearly manipulating Shinji. I think a certain amount of desperation is warranted when you're trying to save the human race from an immediate existential threat (as opposed to Gendo where you're pretty much trying to cause it). The Angels just sort of showed up and started attacking, I don't think there was ever a chance to negotiate. I also feel like Gendo's plans and Seele's plans were probably mutually exclusive, considering how much they butted heads.
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May 13, 2013 13:20
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SHISHKABOB posted:The Angels just sort of showed up and started attacking, I don't think there was ever a chance to negotiate. I also feel like Gendo's plans and Seele's plans were probably mutually exclusive, considering how much they butted heads.
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May 13, 2013 13:27
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ShardPhoenix posted:Gendo is one thing, but I thought Misato was quite heroic (and probably the most admirable character overall) in the original series, despite clearly manipulating Shinji. I think a certain amount of desperation is warranted when you're trying to save the human race from an immediate existential threat (as opposed to Gendo where you're pretty much trying to cause it). Misato's half-exempt because she wants Shinji to grow up and even pushes him in that direction, she just fails because the framework she's working in is totally corrupt and opposed to her wishes. She is however still complicit in that framework and we see the results of that in EoE, where she gives up on Shinji becoming an adult and manipulates him out of despair and a sense of duty. By that point it may have been the lesser of two evils compared to letting SEELE do its thing, but it's still sacrificing Shinji on the altar of Instrumentality. Then in 3.33 she abandons the system and uses its own tools against it, which is definitely a step in the right direction, but not yet totally extricated. It's also a definitive answer to "what else could she have done?" ShardPhoenix posted:On that note it's quite amusing how the 3 main factions in the series (NERV/Gendo, SEELE, and the Angels) are all trying to achieve almost exactly the same thing, with the difference more in the details. I wonder if they could have reached a negotiated settlement without all the fighting and conspiring. Don't forget Yui -- even if she isn't actively interfering during the course of the series (I think she is, but that's a whole 'nother ball of  ), she still had some kind of plan, incompatible with SEELE's, by the time of the contact experiment.Also SEELE was sufficiently opposed to Gendo's plan that they murdered everyone involved with it, and the Angels achieving their goal would literally wipe out all carbon-based life, so... I'm gonna go with "no." Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 14:13 on May 13, 2013 |
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May 13, 2013 13:33
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Misato's half-exempt because she wants Shinji to grow up and even pushes him in that direction, she just fails because the framework she's working in is totally corrupt and opposed to her wishes. She is however still complicit in that framework and we see the results of that in EoE, where she gives up on Shinji becoming an adult and manipulates him out of despair and a sense of duty. By that point it may have been the lesser of two evils compared to letting SEELE do its thing, but it's still sacrificing Shinji on the altar of Instrumentality. quote:Then in 3.33 she abandons the system and uses its own tools against it, which is definitely a step in the right direction, but not yet totally extricated. It's also a kind of hilarious answer to "well, what else could she have done?" quote:Also SEELE was sufficiently opposed to Gendo's plan that they murdered everyone involved with it, and the Angels achieving their goal would literally wipe out all carbon-based life, so... I'm gonna go with "no."
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May 13, 2013 14:17
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ShardPhoenix posted:My point was more that Shinji's emotional development was a tertiary concern at best except to the extent that it contributed to saving the world. At times Misato seemed like the only person who was actually taking the situation seriously. Right, I'm just saying that "you can't make an omelet without breaking some 14-year-old boy's mind" is pragmatism, not heroics. Also that trying to save the world from within an organization created to destroy it is possibly a naive decision that will strip away your ideals and get you killed. ShardPhoenix posted:I find it hard to call Misato's behavior in 3.0 a step in the right direction. That's a case where her emotional neglect of Shinji really does go too far to the extent that it makes things a lot worse. Neglecting Shinji makes things worse, but actively resisting Gendo is the best thing she's ever done. In fact, neglecting Shinji backfires and interferes with that goal, which is why it's a monumentally terrible decision instead of just a dick move. ShardPhoenix posted:NERV achieving their goal also wiped out all life (or at least all human life), so maybe the Angels would have been happy to let Gendo have his way and have humanity fly off into space as big ball of LCL or something, if only they knew. Who knows what exactly SEELE wanted that was different from NERV. I think you've got NERV and SEELE reversed; we don't know what NERV/Gendo achieving their goal would have done because they're interrupted by SEELE and by Rei deciding she felt like a hand sandwich for lunch. We know his motivation (re-unite with Yui) and that as soon as the last Angel died SEELE send soldiers to destroy NERV HQ. From there you can reasonably infer that their plan only coincided up to the death of the last Angel. Also while it's not explicitly stated (except in outside material), I'm pretty sure the that an Angel reaching Terminal Dogma is not "wipes out all life" in the "evolution of a new humanity" sense. It's more the "erased to the last organic molecule" sense. In any case, we know at least one Angel did figure out what was up (Kaworu) and his response was to commit suicide rather than destroy humanity. (And also that that was his only choice, because otherwise he was instinct-driven to continue.) EDIT: IIRC there's also a director's cut scene where SEELE mentions an Angel-based Third Impact, but only to say "hell no we don't want that, we'll use the Ikari boy instead." Or possibly just that they'll use a human, but definitely not an Angel. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 14:51 on May 13, 2013 |
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May 13, 2013 14:37
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:EDIT: IIRC there's also a director's cut scene where SEELE mentions an Angel-based Third Impact, but only to say "hell no we don't want that, we'll use the Ikari boy instead." Or possibly just that they'll use a human, but definitely not an Angel. Except that their backup plan after Gendo "loses" the Lance is to send Kaworu to Lilith. Unless I'm misremembering. Which is entirely possible. It's been a long time.
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May 13, 2013 15:04
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Also "Evangelion = stunted growth / permanent childhood" isn't a thing until Rebuild anyways, in the series piloting one is just traumatic. Misato does the right thing (under the circumstances) by trying to parent Shinji, and also by having him pilot Eva to exterminate Angels. It's not until 3.33 that the two are established as mutually exclusive, and in 3.33 she sets out to destroy all Evangelions. So while I'm critical of her for implicitly supporting Gendo, she's never deliberately acted against the Children's best interests. Hopping back on the "Misato = director" train of thought, she's limited by what the studio and producers want, but can't produce a satisfactory compromise, and it takes her until Rebuild to assume full authorial control. Autonomous Monster posted:Except that their backup plan after Gendo "loses" the Lance is to send Kaworu to Lilith. They might have meant for him to die, given that they're acting out a prophecy and their directive to Gendo to kill the Angels. Or possibly he's acting on his own; I don't remember if anyone ever mentions whether Kaworu was "sent" or not, and I don't have the original series handy to check. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 15:17 on May 13, 2013 |
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May 13, 2013 15:10
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I don't think he was sent in Rebuild. He just kind if showed up. Gendo and bro did know about him since they explicitly showed them staring at Kaworu chilling on the moon. It could be that the ending of 2.22 was entirely orchestrated by Gendo, Kaworu's entrance included.
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May 13, 2013 15:29
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Reminder: 
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May 13, 2013 15:34
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:They might have meant for him to die, given that they're acting out a prophecy and their directive to Gendo to kill the Angels. Or possibly he's acting on his own; I don't remember if anyone ever mentions whether Kaworu was "sent" or not, and I don't have the original series handy to check. I feel like I recall Misato saying something along the lines of Seele "sent" Kaworu (the last Angel) to them. I think she says it almost immediately before Kaworu takes control of Unit-02 and the Beethoven starts.
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May 13, 2013 15:54
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SHISHKABOB posted:I feel like I recall Misato saying something along the lines of Seele "sent" Kaworu (the last Angel) to them. I think she says it almost immediately before Kaworu takes control of Unit-02 and the Beethoven starts. He was sent by Seele in the series. I think he was talking about the end of Rebuild 2.22 when Kaworu shows up and spears unit 01.
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May 13, 2013 16:00
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ViggyNash posted:He was sent by Seele in the series. I think he was talking about the end of Rebuild 2.22 when Kaworu shows up and spears unit 01. Nah, I was talking about the original series. In 2.22/3.33 the only hint we have is Gendo and Fuyutsuki calling him "SEELE's boy," the rest is guesswork.
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May 13, 2013 16:04
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdmGtVr3Nzw At like 58 seconds Fuyutski says "Oh dear god in heaven, Seele has delivered an Angel to us." So it was Fuyutski and not Misato, but yeah.
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May 13, 2013 16:10
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heiden posted:Following up on that interview, do you guys consider the new Eva movies to have fanservice and cater to an older audience or not? Yes, there are still plugsuits, and wasn't there naked Mari in Rebuild 2? And yes, because though I can imagine teenagers liking Rebuild, there seems to be a lot in there that's not specifically aimed at them - mostly the metatextual aspects like the curse, things children can't be expected to know about. SHISHKABOB posted:The Angels just sort of showed up and started attacking, I don't think there was ever a chance to negotiate. I also feel like Gendo's plans and Seele's plans were probably mutually exclusive, considering how much they butted heads. (S) The Angels aren't really one faction but fifteen; they don't seem to communicate at all*. And they seem to vary in intelligence; though the first few aren't especially bright, one's a genius hacker and another enjoys Handel and is telepathic, but as the intelligent ones don't seem interested in talking, so an agreement isn't really negotiable. That (S) is meant to mean that I'm talking about the series, as opposed to (R)ebuild or (E)nd of Evangelion; it's getting a little confusing in here. *There's an idea that Matarael delivered Iruel to NERV.
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May 13, 2013 16:30
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