|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:They might have meant for him to die, given that they're acting out a prophecy and their directive to Gendo to kill the Angels. Or possibly he's acting on his own; I don't remember if anyone ever mentions whether Kaworu was "sent" or not, and I don't have the original series handy to check. Happily, I do have the series on hand. So I went and rewatched the director's cut version of #24, and... then immediately went to look at the original, because I suddenly had a pressing need to know what had been changed and what hadn't. So, this is what I thought I remembered:  Kaworu is sent by SEELE to NERV  after they have tricked him into believing that the figure in Terminal Dogma is Adam. The implication being that they want to trick him into merging with Lilith and that this will somehow bring about a form of Instrumentality beneficial to them. What I didn't remember is that this also happens:  So, now it appears pretty cut and dried that SEELE were sending Kaworu to his death. All of this still happens in the director's cut version... only now there's an additional scene  in which Keel tells Kaworu, to his face, in quite possibly the plainest language ever employed in Evangelion, that Adam's body is inside Gendo. So now the scene in Terminal Dogma makes no sense to me.  (They also state, in no uncertain terms, that Adam's soul is in Kaworu. I thought that was ambiguous, or only implicit, so I thought I'd mention it.) House Louse posted:(S) The Angels aren't really one faction but fifteen; they don't seem to communicate at all*. And they seem to vary in intelligence; though the first few aren't especially bright, one's a genius hacker and another enjoys Handel and is telepathic, but as the intelligent ones don't seem interested in talking, so an agreement isn't really negotiable. Weeeeeeeeeeell, that's debateable. Kaworu explicitly surrenders to Shinji because he doesn't want to "win" at the cost of destroying humanity. And, of the others, it's possible that they wanted to communicate but just didn't know how. Leliel absorbed Unit 01, and it's mooted that Shinji's experiences inside it were an attempt to communicate. Bardiel fused with Unit 03 and then tried to do the same with Unit 00. Arael hits Asuka with some sort of telepathy; it causes her untold psychological damage, but we have no idea if that was the intent or just a side effect. Armisael also tried to fuse with 00, and actually held a conversation with Rei while it was doing so. Tabris/Kaworu is the only Angel shown to be capable of relating to humans in human terms, and he spends most of his episode telling Shinji how much he loves him. Of the others... Shamshel, Ramiel, Gaghiel, Sahaquiel and especially Zeruel all seem to be highly aggressive. The rest are more ambiguous: I don't think Sachiel actually does anything until it's attacked.
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 18:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 10:43 |
|
|
Autonomous Monster posted:in which Keel tells Kaworu, to his face, in quite possibly the plainest language ever employed in Evangelion, that Adam's body is inside Gendo. Maybe Kaworu thought they were full of poo poo? Why would he take anything a human says at face value? If I were him I would also assume that the massively fortified and defended chamber way the gently caress underground that almost no one has access to was the first place I should check. A better question is why the gently caress would SEELE tell him where Adam's body actually was? If I'm understanding things right, an Angel reuniting with Adam would have caused a version of Third Impact where all of humanity is just totally and irrevocably annihilated, why wouldn't they have wanted him to go on a wild goose chase down to Lilith (which he did anyway)? Was it a successful application of reverse psychology?
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 18:31
|
|
|
Autonomous Monster posted:Adam's body is inside Gendo. WHAT. I must have missed this part because I don't remember that scene at all. And I share your confusion: Why would Kaworu believe that he would find Adam in Terminal Dogma if he'd already been told that Adam was a part of Gendo. Secondly, how is Adam inside Gendo? Isn't Adam the weird skeleton thing that Koji brought in the metal case? You went looking for answers and only brought back more question. But I guess that can't be helped.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 18:35
|
|
|
The Director's Cut of one of the later TV episodes, as well as Death I believe, show that Gendo had Adam grafted into his hand.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 18:37
|
|
|
ViggyNash posted:WHAT. At some point he removes his glove and you can see a weird growth on his palm, which is Adam. I don't know where this is in the series but I've seen a screen capture of it. EDIT: Yeah, as the poster above me said, in the director's cut which I never saw.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 18:40
|
|
|
ViggyNash posted:Secondly, how is Adam inside Gendo? Isn't Adam the weird skeleton thing that Koji brought in the metal case? Yeah, it's fused into his hand.  I believe that's why Rei steals his arm in EoE. (That shot is also new in the director's cut, but I'm sure this is also established somewhere in the original series, because it was already a known thing before the director's cut came out.) EDIT: Clearly I need to learn to not spend forever dithering over posts. 
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 18:43
|
|
|
ViggyNash posted:Secondly, how is Adam inside Gendo? Isn't Adam the weird skeleton thing that Koji brought in the metal case? It's only a skeleton-looking thing in Rebuild. In the original series, it's an embryo, explicitly identified as Adam, and later on you see that same embryo fused to Gendo's hand.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 18:45
|
|
|
HOLY poo poo that is a creepy image. Was that in D&R? That's the only thing I haven't watched so far aside from the director's cut.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 18:46
|
|
|
Feranon posted:Maybe Kaworu thought they were full of poo poo? Why would he take anything a human says at face value? If I were him I would also assume that the massively fortified and defended chamber way the gently caress underground that almost no one has access to was the first place I should check. Sadly the most likely explanation is that it was a continuity error and that's why they cut the scene in the first place. There are a bunch of fan theories that try to explain it but none are exactly satisfactory. The same scene also contains 15 members of SEELE, which is more than you ever see at any other point.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 18:50
|
|
|
Death definitely had some material which were not in the series proper but were in the DC episodes. It's actually a pretty neat mini-movie and I like watching it before EoE, if only for the cello and violin scenes.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 18:51
|
|
|
I might go watch the first part for the dc content. It seems that there's quite a few plot points I may have missed.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 19:05
|
|
|
Death is just re-edited footage from the series, except for the music scenes and intertitles, so if you haven't seen it then it'll be in the director's cut episodes.Autonomous Monster posted:Weeeeeeeeeeell, that's debateable. Kaworu explicitly surrenders to Shinji because he doesn't want to "win" at the cost of destroying humanity. And, of the others, it's possible that they wanted to communicate but just didn't know how. Leliel absorbed Unit 01, and it's mooted that Shinji's experiences inside it were an attempt to communicate. Bardiel fused with Unit 03 and then tried to do the same with Unit 00. Arael hits Asuka with some sort of telepathy; it causes her untold psychological damage, but we have no idea if that was the intent or just a side effect. Armisael also tried to fuse with 00, and actually held a conversation with Rei while it was doing so. Tabris/Kaworu is the only Angel shown to be capable of relating to humans in human terms, and he spends most of his episode telling Shinji how much he loves him. Not "talking" in the sense of "diplomacy", though; with those who do (or can) it's personal. I'm pretty sure Bardiel, given its total control over the Eva, its violence, and the sticky white stuff everywhere, is basically raping the Eva rather than communicating. And since seeing 3.33, I've had the idea that Kaworu might have been manipulating Shinji, rather than genuinely loving him and also planning to destroy him along with other Lilim.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 19:06
|
|
|
I don't think Kaworu has ever been outright malevolent. More likely his motivations are just freaky and inhuman in ways that don't directly contradict the things he says, like being totally obedient to SEELE and offering Shinji unconditional love at the same time. He's incompatible, not evil. On the other hand, the episode in the original series where he dies is subtitled "The Smile of Betrayal" so who knows.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 19:13
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:Sadly the most likely explanation is that it was a continuity error and that's why they cut the scene in the first place. There are a bunch of fan theories that try to explain it but none are exactly satisfactory. I totally forget where I heard this (maybe it was during the English Commentary of End of Evangelion) but I heard someone suggest that he was actually talking to the 15 other Angels. Don't they say something along the lines of putting their trust/hope in Kaworu? It's kind of strange though since you'd have to count humanity as one of the Angels to get to 15.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 19:22
|
|
|
House Louse posted:And since seeing 3.33, I've had the idea that Kaworu might have been manipulating Shinji, rather than genuinely loving him and also planning to destroy him along with other Lilim. Manipulating him for what purpose? Had Kaworu succeeded in convincing Shinji to stop before he took the spears, it would have foiled Gendo's plan (or what I assume his plan was based of of his ending quote in 3.33). I think that the manipulation angle could still be plausible but we have no idea what Kaworu wanted with the spears. At the very least we know that Kaworu needed Shinji in order to operate Unit 13, but we know no more than that. It could also be that Kaworu was telling Shinji the truth and that his plan was to help Shinji restore the world using the spears somehow. There's too much we don't know yet that needs to be revealed in the fourth movie for anything to make sense, especially questions about 3.33.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 19:29
|
|
|
I still don't understand why Kaworu says to Rei that they are "the same". Is he trying to say that they're both non-humans that are being used by the humans? Also what the hell is with Rei appearing and disappearing in the very first episode? And then in episode 24 she appears up the tube, Kaworu looks at her, and then she disappears? She was the source of the one AT-field Hyuga noticed, but then disappeared, right?
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 19:33
|
|
|
SHISHKABOB posted:Also what the hell is with Rei appearing and disappearing in the very first episode? If it helps (it won't) she appears and disappears right at the end of EoE too.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 19:35
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:If it helps (it won't) she appears and disappears right at the end of EoE too. Yeah I remember her appearing right before Misato explodes, and she's seen near Ritsuko's dead body floating in the LCL sea I think. Rei is a clone of Yui, yes? Did they somehow manage to stick the soul of Lilith inside her or something? If so, how did they get the soul back after Rei II dies and they make Rei III? How would they have gotten Lilith's soul in the first place? I guess maybe stabbing Lilith with the lance of longinus and then doing wacky technobabble stuff, while the lance keeps Lilith's body in "stasis"? Ugh, thinking about all this stuff just makes me wanna marathon the whole series again.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 19:40
|
|
|
SHISHKABOB posted:I still don't understand why Kaworu says to Rei that they are "the same". Is he trying to say that they're both non-humans that are being used by the humans? As far as them being "the same" I think that Kaworu is a clone just like Rei, which would make Rei an angel herself by association. There are definitely many similarities between the two: white hair, pale skin, red eyes. We don't know what Kaworu's life was like before he was sent to NERV (in the series) and before ending up on the moon (in Rebuild), so it could be that he "learned" to be "human", which could explain why he is more socially competent than Rei, but honestly we don't know everything about Rei's "birth" either, so maybe there's some fundamental difference in the way Kaworu and Rei are created that defined one as an angel and the other as a clone, but then again those could be one and the same thing.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 19:43
|
|
|
Rei's not an Angel, she's the offspring of Lilith (in the same sense that Kaworu is the offspring of Adam, at least). Which makes her human by definition. Spergy, blue-haired, emotionally stunted, but still human. They're more like complementary opposites than the exact same thing.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 19:53
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:Rei's not an Angel, she's the offspring of Lilith (in the same sense that Kaworu is the offspring of Adam, at least). Which makes her human by definition. Spergy, blue-haired, emotionally stunted, but still human. True, I forgot that they were born from different... "gods" I guess? You can't deny the visual similarities though. For being born from polar opposite beings, they have very similar features. I wonder what Kaworu knows that we don't about his and Rei's creation that prompted him to suggest that they were the same.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 20:03
|
|
|
Well, off the top of my head -- they're (almost certainly) both clones. Rei is the basis of NERV's dummy plug system and Kaworu is the basis of SEELE's -- you can see it when they activate the Mass Production Evas. They both manifest during Instrumentality, although Rei is obviously dominant. They're both being used by human beings.
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 20:10 on May 13, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 20:08
|
|
|
SHISHKABOB posted:Did they somehow manage to stick the soul of Lilith inside her or something? That was what I always thought. And that's what the EvaGeeks wiki says on Rei's page... but it doesn't cite a source.  SHISHKABOB posted:If so, how did they get the soul back after Rei II dies and they make Rei III? How would they have gotten Lilith's soul in the first place? I guess maybe stabbing Lilith with the lance of longinus and then doing wacky technobabble stuff, while the lance keeps Lilith's body in "stasis"? 
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 20:16
|
|
|
I didn't think of that. Yea, its quite plausible that the mass produced Eva's were being controlled by Kaworu clones the same way the dummy plug can control its own Eva. Maybe SEELE sent Kaworu to NERV for the sole purpose of getting rid of him now that they can just clone his clones.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 20:22
|
|
|
You can pursue any part of Evangelion's mythology and all it does it lead down an endless rabbit hole that 95% of the time gives you no insight into the characters themselves. I mean, take Rei for instance. As best we can tell the process goes: Eva-01 is built from Lilith -> Yui's contact experiment merges her with Unit-01 -> Akagi senior tries to recover her, fails -> they get Rei's "data," which can produce countless bodies but only has one soul (that isn't Yui's) -> Rei is Yui's clone with Lilith's soul. But the only part of that that's really important in emotional terms is "Rei is Yui's clone". That's why she's so confusing to Shinji and why Gendo dotes on her at the beginning of the series (where she's the only link he has to her) and treats her like a tool at the end (when her purpose is nearly over.)
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 20:27
|
|
|
ViggyNash posted:Manipulating him for what purpose? Talking about the series, not Rebuild. SHISHKABOB posted:Yeah I remember her appearing right before Misato explodes, and she's seen near Ritsuko's dead body floating in the LCL sea I think. I'm pretty sure that's meant to be her "welcome to Instrumentality" role - Misato was certainly Instrumentalitied, so it's not like being dead is an issue. SHISHKABOB posted:Did they somehow manage to stick the soul of Lilith inside her or something? In episode 24, she used an AT field as strong as Kaworu's, which is confirmation by Eva's standards. Maeanwhile, can you guess what this is?  Eva bowling pins? Pfft, don't be silly. They're Eva costumes to go bowling in, of course. 3.33 publicity, I think.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 20:45
|
|
|
Oh, by the way -- I didn't mean Rei appears before Instrumentality when souls are being gathered. I mean she appears on the beach where Shinji and Asuka wash up in EoE, hovering over the water for a split second.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 20:48
|
|
|
House Louse posted:Talking about the series, not Rebuild. Umm... I think this takes the cake for being the most random licensing product for Eva. Even in the series I think his manipulation, if that's what it was, was mutually exclusive from his invasion of Terminal Dogma. Kaworu seems genuinely gay to me and I think his feelings for Shinji are supposed to be real. Why is he gay? No idea. ViggyNash fucked around with this message at 20:52 on May 13, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 20:48
|
|
|
Why can only specific people pilot eva, and did they ever explain why it has to be a specific age?
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 20:50
|
|
|
Cubemario posted:Why can only specific people pilot eva, and did they ever explain why it has to be a specific age? rear end in a top hat answer: "Because it has to be them." Shinji and Asuka pilot theirs because it contains the soul of their mother. This is probably true of Touji as well, given that their entire school is made up of potential pilots. Rei and Unit-00 are kind of an exception on the grounds that she doesn't have a mother, and that's never explained to my knowledge, although I can think of some unpleasant conjectures given how much Unit-00 seems to hate Gendo.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 20:57
|
|
|
Cubemario posted:Why can only specific people pilot eva, and did they ever explain why it has to be a specific age? People born after 2nd impact can only pilot Eva. Also their mothers' souls power them. I'm assuming Eva-00 is powered by another copy of Rei inside, or a copy of Shinji's mom.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 21:12
|
|
|
It's generally accepted that Rei is inside Unit 0, however that works since Rei seems to still have her soul. My guess is it's just a piece of it in the Eva, which kind of explains why Rei I had a personality while Rei II and III didn't, and also why the Rei in Unit 0 seems so unhinged.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 21:23
|
|
|
ViggyNash posted:Why is he gay? No idea. Maybe he's just pan-sexual beyond our comprehension. Like genders are literally irrelevant to him, humans are all "one" and he just wants to merge with anything human, either through wieners, or orange tang. Cubemario posted:Why can only specific people pilot eva, and did they ever explain why it has to be a specific age? I always thought it'd be neat to show what happens to Eva pilots and their sync-ratio as they age. Like you NEED to pilot an Eva young the first time to make the connection, then the "age limit" is less strict, so you can be 20+ and piloting the Eva, as long as you first synced with it when you were 13-14. The link will eventually grow weaker and weaker until by late 20's/early 30's there is zero sync ratio, and you just can't activate your old Eva anymore. Then the series follows a grown up Shinji using his cloned Son/Rei hybrid as a tool to try and get back into unit 01/his mother basically paralleling Gendo's arc and causing a monumental freakout when he realizes he's become his father. Of course the Curse of Eva stuff makes all that moot, but I'd like to see what happens when the pilots get older, since they made such a big deal about the need for specific ages. Well Manicured Man posted:Ritsuko's mother was the MAGI computers, wasn't she? It's been a while since I've seen the TV series or EoE but in one of the two I remember actually seeing that NERV's computers had a human brain hooked up to them. I forgot about all that amazing Magi stuff, such an awesome concept and now that Nerv HQ is destroyed in Rebuild we'll never get those scenes remade. Seeing inside the massive column all the generals are always sitting on watching the battle screens, and it's an actual loving brain in the core of it is the high-concept stuff I really love about this show. bring back old gbs fucked around with this message at 21:39 on May 13, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 21:25
|
|
|
Unit 00 has half of Lilith's soul inside. The other half is in Rei II.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 21:28
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:rear end in a top hat answer: "Because it has to be them." Wasn't the blonde scientist lady's mother involved somehow for Unit 00? Like she wanted Gendo but was jealous as hell that Gendo was with Yui and so Unit 00 also hated Rei and attacked the piss out trying to get at Gendo. Maybe Gendo manipulated her and used her. Or was it the computer that was involved somehow...I can't quite remember.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 21:32
|
|
|
Ritsuko's mother was the MAGI computers, wasn't she? It's been a while since I've seen the TV series or EoE but in one of the two I remember actually seeing that NERV's computers had a human brain hooked up to them.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 21:35
|
|
|
Well Manicured Man posted:Ritsuko's mother was the MAGI computers, wasn't she? It's been a while since I've seen the TV series or EoE but in one of the two I remember actually seeing that NERV's computers had a human brain hooked up to them. She didn't exactly get "turned into them", but rather they used her "personality data" as the prototype for the MAGI computers. Each computer had a component of her personality: as a scientist, as a mother and as a woman.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 21:36
|
|
|
That episode from what I remember was cool as hell and there was a feeling dread when I watched it.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 21:39
|
|
|
SHISHKABOB posted:She didn't exactly get "turned into them", but rather they used her "personality data" as the prototype for the MAGI computers. Each computer had a component of her personality: as a scientist, as a mother and as a woman. I thought she'd programmed it in herself? The way she explained it, she programmed the 3 parts based on the 3 different perspectives in which she viewed the world.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 21:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 10:43 |
|
|
ViggyNash posted:I thought she'd programmed it in herself? The way she explained it, she programmed the 3 parts based on the 3 different perspectives in which she viewed the world. Yeah, that's what I meant. "They" was to include the people who made the MAGI computer system, which would include Akagi senior.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2013 21:41
|
|