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quote:collar chat I wrote detonate based on his words prior to his death. Something along the lines of "I'll stop Fourth Impact". It's inferred he let himself die to stop it at this point. If you notice the collar had those little pointy things floating around Kaworu's neck. I think that was an indication that the collar had been, automatically or otherwise, activated. I also think the idea is that Kaworu was powerful enough to keep the collar from exploding until he wished it to explode. It means he chose to die to save Shinji, in a parallel to the original series. Also, the reason he died is indirectly because of Shinji (no Shinji, no collar), as compared to letting Shinji take an active role in his demise in the original series. So yeah it's really meant to be a parallel. But that's just another assumption. Isn't NGE ambiguously fun ? 
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May 22, 2013 01:02
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Gendo has Jet Alone sabotaged because if it was shown to be an actual viable alternative to Evangelions then the UN member states would start wondering why they weren't making those things instead. NERV and Seele have a vested interest in keeping Evas the sole hope of humanity against the Angels, so the UN member states keep producing them so they can initiate 3rd impact when it's all over. The mass produced evangelions had a significant role in starting instrumentality, though it's not exactly clear what that role was.
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May 22, 2013 01:15
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Misato doesn't activate the collar, but strictly speaking neither does Kaworu. It's set to automatically go off in case of an "awakening," i.e. when the pilot of an Evangelion can't control their emotions and things start going all signs-and-omens-shaped. They mention this in the scene where the collar is first introduced. I dunno dude, I'm gonna say that if Kaworu can just take the fuckin thing off and on at will, he can also trigger it himself. And when he says he'll close the doors of guf and impales eva13 with the spears, there's no way that would be a move towards an awakening that would trigger the collar (if anything he's trying to shut things down). Not only that, technicalities aside, the entire vibe of the scene was very much sacrifice and goodbye that said to me, both as informed or uninformed viewer, that this was his move. efb
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May 22, 2013 01:52
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SHISHKABOB posted:One of the things I liked a lot about 3.33 were the little references to various episodes from the series that didn't show up in their entirety. For instance, obviously the Jet-Alone episode doesn't happen in Rebuild, but we see Shinji wearing a suit that looks very similar to the one Misato wore. Kaworu and Shinji making music together and doing Evangelion stuff together is sort of reminiscent of "Both of You, Dance Like You Want to Win!". I also took Asuka's ignition of Wunder as a vague vibe callback to Magma Diver. You could even see Eva09's bluepoophackinglegs as reminiscent of Ireul trying to take control of Wunder's system (would be so cool if somehow Ritsuko was able to jack the Magi from NERV when they broke off as Wille and use them to control Wunder)
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May 22, 2013 01:57
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Whaaat ok evageeks definitely loves to stretch and often states speculation as fact but they do sperg out some really neat stuff. Dunno if it's been mentioned here before but I definitely never noticed that awakened Eva01's face does very much resemble that of an Angel's.  Just really neat detail.
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May 22, 2013 04:01
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yellowjournalism posted:I dunno dude, I'm gonna say that if Kaworu can just take the fuckin thing off and on at will, he can also trigger it himself. And when he says he'll close the doors of guf and impales eva13 with the spears, there's no way that would be a move towards an awakening that would trigger the collar (if anything he's trying to shut things down). Not only that, technicalities aside, the entire vibe of the scene was very much sacrifice and goodbye that said to me, both as informed or uninformed viewer, that this was his move. Yeah, it comes out about the same considering he's the one who puts the collar on himself in the first place.
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May 22, 2013 04:11
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Does anyone have any speculation concerning Rebuild Final ? Well, here's mine... The movie starts with the trio at the end of Rebuild 3 being attacked by the Mass-Produced Evas and The Wunder simultaneously. During the fray, debris fall everywhere and Rei is crushed by a bus. Asuka is injured and Shinji is taken by one of the MP Evas. Back at Nerv, Gendo is informed by a pissed off Shinji that Rei is dead. Gendo reveals that he never needed her anyway. Back on the Wunder, both the remains of Eva-02 Dash and Eva-08 are merged together, creating and Eva called Eva-2Dash8ZeroA (tentative name). As they finish the merger, Eva-13, with Shinji tied up in a crucifix-like fashion inside it, is activated and Final Impact starts. With only Mari remaining as an available pilot, she is sent to battle the hundreds of MP Evas to try and stop Final Impact and Gendo's Instrumentality. She battles a couple of them and suddenly stop, saying she really wants to see this version of Instrumentality. It's kept obtuse if she had seen another Instrumentality before or not. As Instrumentality is finally left to go rampant, an enormous, growing shaved Gendo appears on the horizon. The Wunder tries to engage it, but it fails. Gendo catches The Wunder and extracts Eva-01 out of it, then swathes the Wunder like a fly. After that, giant shaved Gendo takes Eva-13 and hugs both of them, as a child would his action figures. The next 30 minutes is an introspective scene about what it means to grow up, have children, and live as a family. There's even a 5 minutes slice of life comedy with Gendo, Yui and Shinji as a nuclear family. Shinji learns to accept himself but otherwise is still in a shouting match against his father. At the same time, giant shaved Gendo is slowly extracting Yui's soul from Eva-01. As Instrumentality reaches its climax, with Apocalypse repercussions reaching the rest of the Earth, giant shaved Gendo is suddenly hit in the back by a flash of light. As he turns in pain, he sees giant swirling geometric figures manipulating a giant sword made of light. A gigantic battle ensues, and as the Earth itself is shook to its very core, giant pockets of warped timespace appear. Mari inside Eva-2Dash8ZeroA is sucked into one. It is implied she is sent in time. Then, the earth itself explodes from the gigantic forces emanated by both gigantic parties. Only the Wunder escapes the gigantic explosion, and is hereby renamed "The Ark", carrying the last of humanity through space. Fade to Black. Then, as the credits roll (on the opening theme of NGE's original series), you can see the faces of the different characters slowly bopping around on the screen. At the end of the credits, you see Anno's face appear on a shark, wearing the kawaii-est of expressions (so does the shark). The shot lingers for 5 minutes, with no music, before the words FIN come on screen. It will later be known, in an upcoming PS4 game, that these beings of light were members of the Eight Ancestral Race (the E.A.Rs), sworn enemies of the First Ancestral Race, and that they were wielding the powerful Scimitar of the Jihad, equal in strength to the Lance of Longinus. (I'm sorry.) yellowjournalism posted:Whaaat ok evageeks definitely loves to stretch and often states speculation as fact but they do sperg out some really neat stuff. Dunno if it's been mentioned here before but I definitely never noticed that awakened Eva01's face does very much resemble that of an Angel's.
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May 22, 2013 04:56
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Speaking of the collar why the hell didn't Kaworu just throw it away? Why did he put it on?
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May 22, 2013 05:16
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What I wouldn't give to see giant shaved Gendo actually happen.
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May 22, 2013 05:18
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notZaar posted:Speaking of the collar why the hell didn't Kaworu just throw it away? Why did he put it on? Seemed like his death was meant to absolve Shinji of his sins.
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May 22, 2013 05:25
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notZaar posted:Speaking of the collar why the hell didn't Kaworu just throw it away? Why did he put it on? He was carrying the weight of Shinji's sins for him, not absolving him of them. He even says as much.
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May 22, 2013 05:33
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bof_man posted:Does anyone have any speculation concerning Rebuild Final ? Well, here's mine... Yesssssssss requesting chibi scene + kitchen hijinks pls thx arigartoe
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May 22, 2013 06:33
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ImpAtom posted:He was carrying the weight of Shinji's sins for him, not absolving him of them. He even says as much. I don't see why the garbage can couldn't do that just as well.
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May 22, 2013 07:00
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notZaar posted:I don't see why the garbage can couldn't do that just as well. I think Kaworu wanted a failsafe in case things went bad as well. He seems to understand the mechanics of the impacts as well as anyone else so it makes sense he'd want a backup plan in case something unexpected cropped up, like having the wrong spears.
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May 22, 2013 08:21
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Concerning my Rebuild Final "speculation", I forgot to add that either "Hey Jude" by The Beatles or a longer Instrumental version of "What a wonderful world" by Louis Armstrong would have been playing during Instrumentality.Mango Polo posted:Is there like a recap of Rebuild 3 that explains what's going on and how the various elements connect to the previous movies? Because I'm still entirely lost after watching it twice.  I had to speculate a bit for this to make any lick of sense. Bridge from Rebuild 2 to 3: Shinji caused an Impact by basically wishing to save Rei and because Eva-01 absorbed the Rei/10th Angel hybrid. Kaworu stopped this Impact in the after-credits, using a differently shaped spear than the Lance of Longinus. It's safe to assume it's the Spear of Cassius that Kaworu mentions in Rebuild 3. The thing is we don't know how much time passed between the last scene before the credits and the scene after the credits. Judging by the color of the backgrounds, I'd say before the credits is in the evening and after the credits is during the night (there's a big moon behind Kaworu). So my guess would be a couple of hours passed. Not sure what Misato and Ritsuko were doing watching Eva-01 destroy everything they held dear during that time. The script needed someone to do a reaction shot? Anyway, the result of this is the hellish landscape around Nerv headquarters, with the half-Evas, the giant teeths, the giant somewhat chalice-shaped structure in the background, and the giant moon-sized basketball in the sky. Unless we get a twist in Rebuild Final, all of this makes sense within the narrative : it's an interrupted Impact. It's referred to as Near-Third Impact afterwards. Things of note during the 14 years timeskip : Misato, Ritsuko and most of the NERV cast rebel against Gendo and by extension, SEELE. It's safe to assume that Shinji's Impact tipped Misato and the rest off on the nature of Evas and Instrumentality. Kaji probably had something to do with this as well, and all signs point that he died because of the knowledge he had. From this knowledge Misato swore to destroy the Evas and Wille was founded on this principle. It's not explained how, but Wille was able to steal the Wunder, the big Eva-like airship, from SEELE. Judging by how everyone acts on the Wunder, it's safe to assume it's a somewhat fresh steal. We don't know when the schism between NERV and Wille happened and how long Wille has been operational. Maybe it was a covert group within NERV that grew in numbers with time and they showed their true colors only when they thought the 12th Angel had been destroyed. Who knows ? Misato was the Commanding Officer (I think that was her title ?) of Nerv and now she is the Captain of the Wunder. Ritsuko was doing the sciency things at NERV and now she's doing the sciency things on the Wunder. The medical officer of Shinji for his short stay on the Wunder was the little sister of the guy who punched Shinji in Rebuild 1. Another thing : Someone, probably NERV at the time, ran some tests on Eva-01, restored Shinji's music player of all things from Eva-01 entry plug, and sealed Eva-01 in orbit. We don't know how much time Eva-01 spent skewered by the Spear of Cassius, and how much time it spent sealed away in orbit, or why it had to be sealed at all. Probably Eva-01 was deemed too dangerous for the time being. Why did it take 14 years for Wille to attempt to restore Shinji from Eva-01's entry plug ? Was it that they just needed Eva-01 for the Wunder and Shinji happened to "be there" so they had to remove him first ? Maybe it'll get explained in Rebuild Final. Also : Asuka got extracted from her pod that she was more or less imprisoned in at the end of Rebuild 2. She lost an eye. Judging by how it becomes blue when she goes into Berserk mode with Eva-02 Dash, she probably lost it during the Angel contamination of the 9th Angel, who used a blue substance to block and fill its entry plug. The last bit is mostly speculation on my part. But again, it makes sense. Mari followed the rest of the gang to Wille, and she has her own Eva now : Eva-08. Rei, who is a new Rei clone, has also her own Eva : Eva-09. Finally : As was mentionned earlier in the thread, the SEELE organization seems to be all artificial intelligence now. It's the safest bet based on what was said during Rebuild 3. We don't know when this happened either. For some reason there seems to be some kind of acceptance between SEELE and Gendo. Maybe it'll get better explained in Rebuild Final. Kaworu is sticking around Nerv headquarters, playing the piano and looking at giant teeths. Why ? The best explanation is that he was waiting for Shinji this whole time, for the plan he proposes in Rebuild 3. Not to forget : Angels 11 and 12. We don't know what happened to Angel 11. Angel 12 was thought to have been defeated, but instead it was sealed inside Eva-06. Eva-06 is the Eva Kaworu used to skewer Eva-01 at the end of Rebuild 2. The sealing was probably all part of Gendo's master plan to awaken Eva-13. Also, Eva-06 is merged to Lilith. In short, Lilith is the God-like entity that if an Angel comes into contact with, humanity gets a game over. Lilith was presented in Rebuild 1 by Misato to Shinji in part to explain the gravity of the situation. Why is Lilith a corpse now ? Who knows when it happened. It points to either Near-Third Impact or the sealing of Angel 12 inside Eva-06. Does this answer your question ? Edit: ^ I had the same idea about this too, Zahki ^
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May 22, 2013 09:51
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Gendo probably didn't want the Japanese govenment digging into AT fields and what-have-you, but given that Jet Alone was a nuclear reactor being put in the Angels' way, if it was ever used it would have irradiated the poo poo out of Tokyo-3 without achieving anything. I don't think even SEELE would really want that.
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May 22, 2013 10:00
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This is Eva related, but I'll keep it short: Any Eva Goons located in Melbourne going to head to the Eva Exhibition next week? Hit me up with a PM if you are!
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May 22, 2013 15:13
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Bit of a tangent, but I just finished rewatching 1.11 for the first time in a while and I must say I'd forgotten just how much I like the climax of the battle with Ramiel. It might be my favorite stand alone scene in Eva, honestly. Pretty much everything from Ramiel counterattacking Shinji's failed first shot to Rei talking with Rei in her entry plug is just great. The slow, relentless pulse of the music slowly heightening the tension all the way to Shinji taking the shot, the awesome animation, Shinji picking himself up for another shot even as he's scared out of his mind, Misato standing up for Shinji to Gendo, and the voice actors all selling the gently caress out of their roles really makes it a joy to watch for me. I particularly like Shinji and Misato's dynamic at this point, Shinji's basically piloting the Eva for her at this point (when he has any concept of why he pilots at all), and despite her inclination to get vicarious revenge on the Angels through Shinji, Misato still cares more about Shinji than just about anyone else does so far - it's a little sad that she's more of a mother to him in 1.11 than Gendo or even Yui ever was, but it's I dynamic I enjoy watching. It's also interesting to see the preview for 2.22 now that it's so long past - definitely a lot less misleading than 3's, but there's still some stuff in there that got pretty heavily reanimated or cut entirely.
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May 22, 2013 18:32
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I think Sahaquiel is my favourite fight. The actual fight is pretty short, but like Ramiel it's the buildup to the fight that is most impressive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSMMfQPMFIw Just watch this poo poo, it's loving nuts. The Evas are a perfect combination of weightless and millions of tons. I love when 01 starts breaking the sound barrier, not even swinging it's arms anymore, and the shockwave sends a parking lot full of cars flying. Then Sahaquiel opens up, and those freaky black hairs/hand-holding things with the eyes look so demonic. It is letting out this red mist, and I really wish they would have showed the impact this had on people in the city, but it was probably already evacuated. It must be really annoying living in Tokyo 3. I never noticed 02's knee armour snapping off as it kicks the knives into the core. Nice touch. This is always the scene I show people who have never seen Eva before. Even if they don't like anime for whatever reason most people understand the appeal of something that bad rear end, even if it isn't for them. Anyways this is my favourite Eva scene, second probably being the Ramiel fight as well as the massive scale of the power re-routing they had to do to make it happen. Blacking out ALL of Japan for a single particle beam shot? gently caress yes NERV can do that. EDIT: The music from the Sahaquiel fight is Fate, and Destiny, both from the 2.0 soundtrack. bring back old gbs fucked around with this message at 19:45 on May 22, 2013 |
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May 22, 2013 19:41
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I don't know if this has been posted here before, but I only just discovered it and it seems relatively obscure. Back when 1.0 came out, Gainax licensed Evangelion pachinko machines (NGE being the licensing gold it is). These machine incorporated video, and one of the videos was an alternate scenario where Kaworu pilots Unit-04 and fights Ramiel with the Lance of Longinus. It's pretty nifty, since I don't know if Unit-04 actually gets animated everywhere else.
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May 22, 2013 20:55
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In addition to those two fights, I did like the concept of the original series where the shadow of the Angel was the ball floating on the surface. And also I think it was Ireul? The virus angel. That was fantastic.
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May 22, 2013 21:42
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ACanofPepsi posted:I think Sahaquiel is my favourite fight. The actual fight is pretty short, but like Ramiel it's the buildup to the fight that is most impressive. Sahaquiel was really drat cool, and it was cool to watch Shinji take getting his hands impaled by a demonic living meteorite like a champ and keep fighting, but it all went rather too smoothly to match the drama of Ramiel for me. Take Rebuild's version of Operation Yashima with maybe just a little bit of the build up before hand, and you might have a pretty good encapsulation of the entire series (except for some of the meta-commentary, but I've never found that nearly as compelling as Shinji's personal story, so  ).
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May 22, 2013 22:39
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Spiritus Nox posted:Sahaquiel was really drat cool, and it was cool to watch Shinji take getting his hands impaled by a demonic living meteorite like a champ and keep fighting, but it all went rather too smoothly to match the drama of Ramiel for me. Take Rebuild's version of Operation Yashima with maybe just a little bit of the build up before hand, and you might have a pretty good encapsulation of the entire series (except for some of the meta-commentary, but I've never found that nearly as compelling as Shinji's personal story, so Yeah I agree Ramiel's fight was way cooler, especially when the angel starts shifting between geometric shapes and using it's beam. What I loved about the Sahaquiel fight was the lead up to the duel, combined with the amazing music. I love it so much when Sahaquiel sheds it's glass things while the opera singer is doing the highest pitch note. Then again when it opens up and does a big whine as its lowering to the Earth. It just seemed so freaking alien. Honestly I watch that fight at least once a day.
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May 22, 2013 23:52
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Ramiel is loving insane. It's just so POWERFUL. Like they just send the Eva up and the first thing that happens is the goddamn thing blasts through five skyscrapers and starts BOILING Shinji alive inside the Evangelion. Plus it's the most like an actual "apostle" or harbinger when it regally floats down the lake, humming as if announcing its arrival. I love the implied... personality, I guess you could say, about the Angels that come across from merely the smallest things about how they act and are designed. Especially if you think of them as the purest representation of how they want to appear, since it's implied Angels simply take the form that suits their purpose and character unconsciously when they are born. Ramiel embodies this sort of clean, pure, inhuman perfection. Oh, and when it transforms, it's like it's we're seeing an incomplete view of a four dimensional object rotating in extra dimensions or some poo poo. SHAOLIN FUCKFIEND fucked around with this message at 00:10 on May 23, 2013 |
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May 23, 2013 00:06
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Shinji's first go at Ramiel has a great character moment too. Gendo's just sitting there casually prohibiting Misato from ejecting Shinji and ruining Unit 1 while Shinji is screaming and crying to be let out of the plug. It's always a good time to say "gently caress Gendo."
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May 23, 2013 00:11
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ACanofPepsi posted:The Evas are a perfect combination of weightless and millions of tons. Yes, the athleticism of the Eva designs is what makes them so original and strange, I think. They're not the standard chunky mecha thing. That particular sequence is brilliant, but I haven't liked how the Evas are animated in a lot of the Rebuild stuff. The teaser for Rebuild 4 is particularly ugly to me... it looks like rotoscoped CGI action figure bullshit. The EoE Asuka battle remains unbeaten in terms of animation "weight" and visual drama. Another weird thing Rebuild 3 lacks is any sense of visual scale. They usually put a lot of stuff in the shot (cars, buildings etc) to show how gargantuan the Eva units are. They use audio cues too, like the rumbling sounds as the Evas get into position at the start of the clip you posted. In Rebuild 3, they're just floating in these hyper-abstract spaces the whole time, almost like old Looney Tunes cartoons, with no sense of scale by comparison. At the end they're running on all these skulls that are way too big to be human, knowing how big the Evas are, but it has the effect of making them seem human-sized. It feels like a deliberate choice they made but it certainly adds to how sparse and airy Rebuild 3 is, despite the density of poo poo going on in it half the time.
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May 23, 2013 00:31
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Ramiel, both series and Rebuild, totally loving rules. I also really love how rebuild has started incorporating human screams into the angel sound effects, and I noticed this most when Ramiel charges up his laser for the second shot. The finality of the CLANK or whatever when it shifts is so dope too. Also could not get enough of a kick out of Sahaquiel's arms unfolding out, hands clasping Shinji's in the most... expressive visual of being-vs-being struggle, and then loving just, insanely transforming into horribly painful-looking stigmata. So sick. God it's incredible how much "personality" these loving aliens have. I won't lie, I also thoroughly enjoyed how easily and gymnastically Asuka kicked clock-Angel's rear end. Plus how it crucified that first fleet of destroyers before getting it's stupid rear end handed to itself. I'm going to just end up naming every angel but I still gotta shoutout Zeruel's loving arms, especially when they hit awakened Unit01's AT field and pile up like goo slamming into a wall at a million miles an hour (the animation, sound, and "friction" (gaming-term) of his Rei-arms unraveling like mummy wraps and then coalescing into iron drums before firing like cannons is also loving amazing). Popcorn posted:Yes, the athleticism of the Eva designs is what makes them so original and strange, I think. They're not the standard chunky mecha thing. Eva design/animation is the best "mecha" design I agree that the animation in teaser for Rebuild 4 really sucks because it's so "fluidly" rotoscoped CG poo poo. I miss the bendy, stretchy, human/animal animation of the series. I'm also not the hugest fan of Unit 02's beast mode paws and stuff. That said, for some reason I really like the faces in Rebuild. Asuka's face just kind of rules, and I loved the animation on Shinji's face as she was pulling his lip at the end of 3.33. Then going back to 1.11 and seeing that the faces are purely the style of the series, just HD-ified, and then 2.22 where the style slowly...matures? for lack of a better word? really made me love the progression all the way up to and through 3.33. I do agree that with 3 there wasn't as much of that (amazing) sense of scale (that I loving LOVE about 1.11/2.22; seeing severed Eva limbs fall on buildings is the poo poo), but that's also cause everything human has been destroyed, ya know? I actually kinda like that-- 3.33 had a very dream-like, lost feel, every frame of reference just obliterated and lost in history, which reflects the sense of like, disbelief and confusion that permeates Shinji's mental state as we watch him lose it. So I kinda love it, and totally agree that it was a conscious choice to give space and air and maybe even reduce the "awe" of the Evas' size to a....human scale? Wunder felt huge in comparison, with Eva's just like humans space-walking on the shuttle, fixing and fighting poo poo.Valentin posted:I don't know if this has been posted here before, but I only just discovered it and it seems relatively obscure. Whaaaaaat awesome If anyone has any more bonus Eva animation goodness please share! I need it like druggs mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 02:59 on May 23, 2013 |
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May 23, 2013 02:52
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notZaar posted:I don't see why the garbage can couldn't do that just as well. Because symbolically it's a lot more meaningful and in-tone to go "I'll help you carry your sins" instead of "Your sins aren't around anymore."
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May 23, 2013 03:02
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I'm watching episode 25 again and enjoying the meta-fictional level. Here's the mindfuck (if the end of TV wasn't enough of it already): On one side there's a very manifest subversion on a Kabbalistic idea. Kabbalah says that at the maximum of evolution (as we are today) human beings reach the maximum of their desires. And yet they feel a "lack" that pushes them toward "spirituality", which is the sublimation of desire and the consequent breach of the physical world as we know it. They call this feel as "the point in the heart", which is the mechanic used by Nature to push us toward it, or otherwise we wouldn't progress further and stop evolving. In Kabbalah evolution is guided by desire. In Evangelion there's the exact same concept. The setting explicitly mentions that it portrays humans at their evolutionary peak. The Longinus lance in the TV series is retrieved from the South Pole and thrust by Rei into Lilith in order to temporarily BLOCK the final evolution. When Gendo decides to speed up again the process, Rei pulls the Lance away, and we see Lilith starting to regenerate. When Kaworu meets Lilith, we see her having a swollen belly, all probably hinting that a "birth" was near. In this case this birth is the symbol of the next step on the evolutionary ladder (like in Kabbalah). Now in episode 25, all this is made quite explicit. Instead of calling it "point in the heart", Eva directly refers to "the void in the heart". But its purpose is equivalent. These are exact quotes from the show: "There is always a void, a part that has been lost in our hearts. That is what gives rise to the hunger in our hearts That's why you're going to bundle all human souls together," And: "That was the beginning of the instrumentality of people" Even in Evangelion there's this "lack" that, as in Kabbalah, is meant to push human beings toward "instrumentality". Both in Eva and Kabbalah, the lack in the heart is the Natural instinct that drives human beings toward the next evolutionary level. The second level of this mindfuck is instead related to Anno and the final part of episode 25. What the characters tell Shinji is that the world he sees is EXACTLY the world he "willed". That everything goes accordingly to his own desires and that this is just one of many possible futures (which also connects to the Rebuild as being "sequels"). Quoting again: "There are a lot of realities. This is one of them. This is the result you wished for. Yes, annihilation, a world where no one is saved. This is reality. It's your own world where you coexist with time, space, and other people. It's a world where you yourself decide how to perceive and accept it. Right now, this is your world, where everything is given to you. You're saying even this darkness and this world of half measures are all things I wished for? That's right. This is one of the many ends that could occur." Now consider the relationship I underlined in the past. God, his son, and Holy Spirit. Anno, Shinji, the audience. Anno is the "god", because he writes the reality of his fiction. He writes the show, the characters, the setting. So, being "outside" of his creation, he has god-like powers. In Christianity the dogma of the Holy Trinity says that each is essentially the same. God imposed on itself human limits and became Jesus in the physical reality. You can read that the "heavenly Son reflected his Father's qualities and personality". Anno writes Shinji as if he writes himself within the boundaries of the story. Shinji is Anno in the story, effectively his incarnation, with the limited powers as every other fictional characters. It's like if there's an opaque dome that covers the fictional layer, and so Shinji doesn't know that "outside" there's an Anno who's writing it in his liking. He is like Anno, but he's subject to the rules of the story. Can't escape them or transcend his condition, and has to suffer like every other human being (like Jesus). And then there's the audience. The audience is the singular "you" who watches the show and that can identify with Shinji, as well it represents the multitude of all spectators. The same as the Holy Spirit represents the "you", as well as the rest of humanity sharing it. Shinji is the mediator between god and audience. The same as Jesus brought on earth the message of God. The message of god is Anno's vision, and we become one with it because we identify with Shinji, and so "complement" with him (and so with god too). Now reread that last quote while having this context in mind. The "reality" Shinji lives in, IS effectively decided by him, because it's the Shinji-Anno who's writing it. He's effectively, literally the god of his world. He just doesn't know because there's the opaque dome that doesn't let him transcend his dimension. Yet Shinji is one with Anno, he "reflects his Father's qualities and personality". He's his own creation, on which Anno has total control. And so perpetuating the fact that this world follows EXACTLY the will of his heart. Just that hidden part of his heart that is concealed from him, because it belongs to Anno himself.
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May 23, 2013 03:43
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I just watched Eva 3.33. What the gently caress was that poo poo? I have no idea what just happened. This had almost nothing to do with the two movies before it. I feel so confused and insulted. Can someone explain either what I'm missing or what the gently caress happened that spawned whatever this movie was?
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May 23, 2013 05:16
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kthegreat posted:I just watched Eva 3.33. What the gently caress was that poo poo? I have no idea what just happened. This had almost nothing to do with the two movies before it. I feel so confused and insulted. Someone asked this very thing in the previous page. Try reading the past two pages, I think that's as close to a summary/explanation you can get for this movie.
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May 23, 2013 05:40
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kthegreat posted:I just watched Eva 3.33. What the gently caress was that poo poo? I have no idea what just happened. This had almost nothing to do with the two movies before it. I feel so confused and insulted. I felt the same way at first, but if you stop trying to make sense of the all abstract symbolism and meaningless babble they keep shoving in your face, it's really quite simple. Maybe try watching it again sometime.
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May 23, 2013 05:55
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kthegreat posted:I just watched Eva 3.33. What the gently caress was that poo poo? I have no idea what just happened. This had almost nothing to do with the two movies before it. I feel so confused and insulted.  I can't speak for the Kaballah part, as I'm not really familiar with how it works and what its purpose is, but I sure as hell can comment on the Christianity parallels you tried to evoke. Quite frankly I think it falls flat because it misses some key points in Christianity's beliefs system. I'll address two. Jesus wasn't just there to transmit a message, as a normal Prophet would do. His main purpose was to die for humanity's sins, dating back to Adam and Eve, to redeem humanity and ensure humanity was given a chance at eternal life in Paradise. The Death and Resurrection of Jesus for the sake of everyone is central to the faith, but nowhere seen in Shinji's development. Kaworu is a way more effective Jesus figure. He has a virgin birth, he contains the essence of God, he dies for Shinji's sins so that he can live. Since you see him in EoE afterwards you could even stretch it and say he was resurrected as well. Second is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the divinity of God and Jesus made manifest as a third entity. I was taught that it is often linked with divine inspiration, revelations, prophecies and other internal divine events. It was received by Paul and the founders of the first Church to help them shape it, and to guide them in their ordeals. We don't, in any way, shape, or form guide Shinji through his development. It just doesn't add up with what you wrote. Unless you want to clarify your meaning regarding Christianity, I'm not buying it one bit. I think the Kabbalistic ideas you brought up make way more sense as NGE uses alot of Kabbalistic imagery and there is a lot of chance Anno used some of the ideas in Kabbalah as well. Unfortunately I don't know the Kaballah so I can't follow you there. This just further proves to me that, for all that I can tell, NGE is so vague and obtuse that you can try to shoe-horn whatever you want in it. It's like a Rorschach test in a way. Suggesting new thread title - Neon Genesis Evangelion Thread : It's the Rorschach test of anime.
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May 23, 2013 06:08
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bof_man posted:I had to speculate a bit for this to make any lick of sense. Why do we have to speculate all this? Why were we not told anything to justify the bullshit that goes on in 3.33? Where is the loving movie explaining all this nonsense? Why did they arbitrarily decide to murder half the cast (intended hyperbole) off-screen between movies? They obviously had enough money for the cluster-gently caress they called art direction in this movie, so it couldn't have been that they didn't have enough money to pay the voice actors. Seriously, this movie was garbage. Fan speculation can't change this fact for me. This ruined how amazing 1.11 and 2.22 were.
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May 23, 2013 06:10
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Most of that's based off what we got in the movie, though. Really, the only thing I don't think the movie gave enough information about for me to basically get was how Unit 1 got put into orbit - and even that could be justified by someone (probably NERV or what passed for the rest of society following the impact) thinking Unit 1 needed to be sealed way the hell away, at least until SEELE or Gendo had a use for it/understand how to control it.
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May 23, 2013 06:19
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bof_man posted:Second is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the divinity of God and Jesus made manifest as a third entity. I was taught that it is often linked with divine inspiration, revelations, prophecies and other internal divine events. It was received by Paul and the founders of the first Church to help them shape it, and to guide them in their ordeals. We don't, in any way, shape, or form guide Shinji through his development. It just doesn't add up with what you wrote. You misunderstand me. I don't think at all that Anno had the Trinity in his mind. The analogy works because it's implicit in this type of metafiction. Even Toliken talked about the relationship between art and God. What is true is that Eva has a trinity: Anno - Shinji - audience. We know for sure that Shinji represents Anno in the anime and that the whole thing is a very personal story. And we know that Evangelion wants the "anime fan" to identify with Shinji. So everything I've said about god and his creation, about incarnation and about the message, is all stuff that applies directly to Eva. This is how Eva is conceived and how it works. THEN I simply made a parallel to the Holy Trinity. It's not stuff that Anno directly referred to or thought about, it's just that this type of work is very close with religion regardless of intention. The patterns are similar. And then the Holy Spirit is omnipresent in all of us. It's not like it arrives and goes away as it wants. In the parallel to Eva I simply meant it as the device through which comprehension works. In religion the message is spirituality, in Eva the message is Anno's own. But in both cases the message works through "empathy". By connecting with Shinji, or by connecting to your own spirituality (and so the Holy Spirit) in Christianity. In fact the Holy Spirit can only guide you if you listen to it. By listening to your "inner heart". It's simply a way of connecting.
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May 23, 2013 06:37
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kthegreat posted:Why do we have to speculate all this? Why were we not told anything to justify the bullshit that goes on in 3.33? Where is the loving movie explaining all this nonsense? The only thing you need to "justify" 3.33 is that Shinji did something horrible, but doesn't understand what or why. That's literally all you need to understand 3.33 as a narrative, apart from some helpful trivia like "so what's up with that tape recorder thing?" If you needed to know what happened in the intervening fourteen years they would have shown you. But you don't, because Shinji didn't experience any of that and the whole point is to put you in his shoes, sharing in his confusion and frustration. bof_man posted:The Death and Resurrection of Jesus for the sake of everyone is central to the faith, but nowhere seen in Shinji's development. Shinji is crucified and reborn in EoE to nullify the Instrumentality initiated by SEELE. So actually, yeah: he dies and is resurrected, for the sake of all humanity, to absolve the sins of his parents' generation (Second Impact, etc.) EDIT: He even has his moment of doubt on the cross. "Oh god, why have you forsaken me?" vs. "They can all just die... I should die too." Of course Shinji is doubting humanity where Christ was doubting God, but like Abalieno and others have pointed out, Evangelion isn't really about religious truth so much as material truth expressed in terms of religious capital-M Mystery. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 07:02 on May 23, 2013 |
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May 23, 2013 06:41
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I finally finished the original TV series (inc. director cuts) and EoE. I actually found EoE more confusing the original 25/26. Though Episode 26 must be the most insane episode of TV ever. One question I have about the series, how much of it is a critique of Japanese society and culture? I can't help but feel a lot of what goes on in terms of the personal relationships between the characters and how they feel is, in some way, uniquely Japanese. Or at least as a result of certain ways things may be done in Japan. One thing that makes me think this how Asuka, as an outsider, behaves and gets frustrated by being in Japan and how others treat her. Is that a valid way to look at this series? I have to admit, I am mystified by some of the decisions the characters make during the series and perhaps that is due to cultural reasons beyond my understanding. Of course it may not have anything to do with that and just be a huge group of dysfunctional dickheads. EDIT: VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV Epic answer! Thanks! Interesting that not a lot of Eva analysis talks about how it relates specifically to Japanese culture/society. In a way it helps join the dots on character motivation. One thing Eva is great at is message of the importance of communication. Which is actually a timely life lesson for me right now. Wank fucked around with this message at 07:54 on May 23, 2013 |
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May 23, 2013 06:50
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Wank posted:I finally finished the original TV series (inc. director cuts) and EoE. I actually found EoE more confusing the original 25/26. Though Episode 26 must be the most insane episode of TV ever. The answer to your question is twofold. In terms of Anno's intent, it's not a critique of Japanese culture as such; Anno actually voices some pretty conservative opinions in interviews and has said at length that he considers modern Japan a society of children that don't live up to their forebears. He cites adult men reading comic books in public as an example of this. This is consistent with the text. The adults are all immature in some way, and through their neglect pass on this trait of immaturity-into-adulthood to the children. If we focus on the text itself, it's a broader attack on the stifling repressiveness of Japan's other-oriented, face saving culture. Shinji is pretty brutally forced to own up to responsibilities that aren't his and carry burdens that don't belong to him- most of the stuff that happens in the series that he blames himself for or reacts badly to are the fault of the adults, but he can't express or acknowledge that. This is a major reason for the values dissonance that causes so much confusion in Western viewers watching 3.33. Shinji can't defend himself for the end of 2.22 even though it clearly isn't his fault, because that would be denying responsibility and that is heavily frowned upon; for him to expect his superiors to take the blame for his actions while he was piloting would make him highly unsympathetic. Eva is also sharply critical of gender roles. Rei is an attack on the meek, submissive woman, while Asuka's failed relationship with Shinji demonstrates how stifling social rules of courting and interaction between men and women are. Though she's usually thought of or spoken of as a very butch character, Asuka projects a mask of hyperfemininity and is obsessed with becoming an adult woman (demonstrated by her emulation of Misato in clothing in behavior, and more obviously in bits such as her attempt to borrow perfume) and with the ideals of romance represented in fiction (in scenes where she's watching television, it's usually soap operas) and one of her several frustrations with him is that he won't assume an aggressive stance towards her despite all her signals, when acting as the aggressor in their interactions would obviously suit her. Continuing on gender roles, there's also a sharp criticism of the way that Japanese society and society in general treats adult women- Misato's "Christmas Cake" status and Ritsuko's hosed up sexuality are the means by which this criticism is shaped and delivered. Ultimately, even capable women who are intelligent or effective administrators are valued based on their sexuality, and internalization of this leads to destructive, self defeating or risk taking behavior. Misato's characterization is on point here- she cultivates the appearance of a wild party girl, but clearly only ever had sexual relations with one man in her entire life and spends most of her time at home in a drunken stupor. She's so internalized society's expecation that no one actually has to criticize her, she turns herself into something she actually despises. Ritsuko, on the other hand, is so ruled by trying to become cold and clinical and eliminate her sexuality that it rules her, as symbolized by her ordinary attire- she wears a labcoat over a miniskirt and fishnets, the image of the clinical scientist inadequately covering powerful sexual urges. To go even broader, Evangelion is about the Cold War and the failure of the postwar generation to create a better world for their children. Yui specifically embodies this, as she pursues her own selfish designs, superficially promising a better world for future generations while working exclusively towards her own bizarre, self-defeating goals. Nerv as a whole represents this issue. The Evangelions are a metaphor for the new powers of the postwar world- nuclear power of course, but also communications technology and mass media. In order to procure their goal of a "better" future (which is actually a global murder-suicide) the adults build technological monsters that destroy the environment (the dead seas) and literally eat children. The Evangelions are gargantuan techno-monster-gods, Gisburg's Moloch given physical form. At the root of all of these problems is a failure to communicate and connect. There's actually a pretty serious disconnect between the deeper meanings of the series and the surface reading of Shinji overcoming depression. The reason EoE is so bleak in its final moments (the protagonists wake up on the shores of a literal sea of blood) is because the individual epiphanies found in depression are a) often manic episodes that don't lead to any personal growth, change, or escape from depression and b) don't rate a flying gently caress in the long run, since the world really does suck. To become truly self aware, to wake up from the comforting fantasy of Instrumentality into the harsh world is to realize that we're already in hell and no one is doing anything about it. The world is depressing, brutal, bleak, and temporary. Yui gives us some speech about the possibility of happiness and stars and poo poo but what the gently caress does that even mean? It's a platitude delivered by a lunatic committing suicide to escape the responsibility of caring for her child. It ends up balancing bleakness with the will to exist, raising a question but not answering it- "Now that the Cold War is over and we are in the end of history, what do we do with all that we've created, these dangerous technologies that are out of control and generation of children raised by a generation of children-as-adults, doomed to a strip-mined world that's been run into the ground by generations waiting for the bomb to drop? Where do we go from here?" I don't know, but I feel sick.
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May 23, 2013 07:23
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The only thing you need to "justify" 3.33 is that Shinji did something horrible, but doesn't understand what or why. That's literally all you need to understand 3.33 as a narrative, apart from some helpful trivia like "so what's up with that tape recorder thing?" kthegreat posted:Why do we have to speculate all this? Why were we not told anything to justify the bullshit that goes on in 3.33? Where is the loving movie explaining all this nonsense? Why did they arbitrarily decide to murder half the cast (intended hyperbole) off-screen between movies? They obviously had enough money for the cluster-gently caress they called art direction in this movie, so it couldn't have been that they didn't have enough money to pay the voice actors. You sound mad enough to ignore the advice of your only friend in the world that something has gone horribly wrong with the plan he came up with and that you should stop, and then follow through with it anyway Abalieno posted:"There are a lot of realities. This is one of them. bof_man posted:Suggesting new thread title - Neon Genesis Evangelion Thread : It's the Rorschach test of anime. Neon Genesis Evangleion Thread: This is the result you wished for. mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 07:35 on May 23, 2013 |
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May 23, 2013 07:30
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