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freebooter posted:Also I think it's dumb how much faith readers put in prophecy in this series (re: Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei's potential murderer) given that it's a gritty realistic fantasy in which magic rarely plays a part. It would be much more appropriate for the prophecies to just be bullshit that never come to fruition. I really liked the use of prophecy surrounding the red comet. Everyone cites the same comet as proof that they are right about their own interpretation of prophecies and signs, and I hope the same is true of all these other prophecies and visions floating around. I think the same will be of Azor Ahai/ Prince that was Promised, with, like, five contenders that all explicitly fit the prophecy perfectly. I have no idea what the effect of that will be, though. Probably more of the same, everyone claiming the throne. Cersei's fortunes are a little different since she is the only one who's around to interpret them, but it's still the same idea. She was so paranoid about a younger and more beautiful queen causing her downfall, she fulfilled the prophecy herself by trying to get rid of Margaery, and I assume will be the same will be true of her killer. Very Greek tragedy. I love Cersei.  Also, Jon is totally warging into Ghost. The wolf's name is Ghost for gently caress's sake. There's no way this isn't going to happen. I know that since we're all discussing the ends of the books we should probably be posting in the other thread, but it's so much less, I don't know, intimidating here. I don't feel half as stupid next to the people who've been reading the series for twenty years.
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Jul 14, 2013 15:49
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Olivia42 posted:I really liked the use of prophecy surrounding the red comet. Everyone cites the same comet as proof that they are right about their own interpretation of prophecies and signs, and I hope the same is true of all these other prophecies and visions floating around. I think the same will be of Azor Ahai/ Prince that was Promised, with, like, five contenders that all explicitly fit the prophecy perfectly. I have no idea what the effect of that will be, though. Probably more of the same, everyone claiming the throne. (ADWD)the only person that has really met any part of the Azor Ahai prophecy is Dany (so far). Maester Aemon even comments how Stannis's sword is a fake being made through Melissandre's magic, and while she keeps thinking "revive dragons from stone" = Dragonstone it's pretty flatly stated that the eggs Dany was given as a wedding gift had turned to stone over the years/ages, yet she still hatches them. She also kills the one she loves and gains needed strength from it, similar to Azor Azhai stabbing his sword in to his lover/wife to quench it. All weight leans to Dany so far but Martin likes to gently caress with people so it'll probably be Sansa or something. 
Evil Fluffy fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jul 14, 2013 |
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Jul 14, 2013 16:02
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I have a feeling that (AFFC) the Valonqar might not necessarily be one of Cersei's younger brothers, for instance, Loras is the youngest of the Tyrell brothers. Might be a bit of a cop out but I really don't see how Tyrion or Jaime could fit the bill either. A possible culprit might be Osney Kettleback, the youngest of the Kettlebacks. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jul 14, 2013 |
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Jul 14, 2013 16:03
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I have a feeling that (AFFC) the Valonqar might not necessarily be one of Cersei's younger brothers, for instance, Loras is the youngest of the Tyrell brothers. Might be a bit of a cop out but I really don't see how Tyrion or Jaime could fit the bill either. Alternate option:(AFFC)It's Tommen? Having it be Tyrion or Jamie isn't impossible either. Tyrion just killed his dad in a rather big "gently caress YOU, DAD" moment and Jaime's starting to hate Cersei pretty clearly, but I guess he is less likely. Not to mention the prophecy given to Cersei's friend wasn't nearly as vague if you go with the belief Cersei murdered her, which seems plausible when reading over the few potential hints including one from her walk of shame.
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Jul 14, 2013 16:09
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All prophecies will turn out to be completely false, just you wait.
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Jul 14, 2013 23:39
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(AFFC) Maggy's prophecy has been 100% accurate in every detail so far, i.e Robert's bastards, Cersei becoming queen, etc, so unless Cersei doesn't remember everything correctly there's really not much doubt about the rest of it coming true as well.
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Jul 14, 2013 23:52
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Olivia42 posted:Also, Jon is totally warging into Ghost. The wolf's name is Ghost for gently caress's sake. There's no way this isn't going to happen. If that does happen (ADWD) I can't say I'm looking forward to reading ten chapters of Jon trotting around peeing on trees and biting the ankles of Wights or whatever the gently caress he'll be doing as Ghost until he gets put back into a human body.
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Jul 15, 2013 02:00
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I finished ASOS and it was the definitely the best one of the series so far.
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Jul 15, 2013 03:05
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Vigilance posted:If that does happen (ADWD) I can't say I'm looking forward to reading ten chapters of Jon trotting around peeing on trees and biting the ankles of Wights or whatever the gently caress he'll be doing as Ghost until he gets put back into a human body. I am reasonably confident that the reason Melisandre became a POV character was so that we would have a perspective of the Wall while Jon is dead. I think Jon will be absent as a POV until he is reborn. Melisandre's chapters will focus on her realizing Jon is still alive (and that he's AA) and chronicle her efforts to restore him and keep the Wall under control. I also suspect that we might lose Jon's POV entirely, just as we lost Catelyn's, and he will be developed from a third person perspective from that point forward. Main reason why? Because at some point Robb's Letter will come into play and kings don't get POVs.
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Jul 15, 2013 03:16
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What was Rob's letter again? Legitimizing him and making his air? Did it ever get sent off? Stannis also offered to legitimise him, didn't he? Jon sure does have a multitude of option for becoming king and being not dead.
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Jul 15, 2013 03:45
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(ASOS/ADWD)Pretty sure that Robb's letter was destroyed along with him during the wedding. Plus all the guesses at why/how Jon survives is the biggest reason to have him dead. GRRM has even mentioned that Ned and Robb's deaths were pretty much a mandatory thing early on because "Ned does the right thing and rules" and "Robb avenges father's murder" were things that normally happen, just like "the hero survives miraculously" which would fit Jon. But in the end, all Stark men become honorable idiots (when they go through puberty? Bran seems sane still) and die because of it. Ned didn't just remove Cersei when he could've done so, Robb married a girl solely because he had sex with her, and Jon kept doing the 'right' thing even though it was dumb as hell and in some cases just got more people killed. It even lead to Brandon and Eckard Stark's deaths.
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Jul 15, 2013 04:42
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(ADWD) Jon is guaranteed to survive in one way or another, though if it's only through living his 'second life' through Ghost then his role in the story is pretty much over and it could still fulfill the GRRMish "gently caress your expectations" requirement. Regardless, Jon doesn't really do anything stupid short of thinking that his Nightwatch brothers have all come to realize that the threat posed by the others is more significant than whatever quarrels the Westerosi nobility is currently engaged in or their prejudice against the wildlings, as opposed to Ned and Robb's foolish death-by-honor Jon actually fights for a worthy and necessary cause.
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Jul 15, 2013 04:53
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Evil Fluffy posted:(ASOS/ADWD)Pretty sure that Robb's letter was destroyed along with him during the wedding. Plus all the guesses at why/how Jon survives is the biggest reason to have him dead. GRRM has even mentioned that Ned and Robb's deaths were pretty much a mandatory thing early on because "Ned does the right thing and rules" and "Robb avenges father's murder" were things that normally happen, just like "the hero survives miraculously" which would fit Jon. Nope, Robb trusted Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover with the information in the letter and they were last seen heading to Greywater Watch to instruct Howland Reed with Robb's plans to take Moat Cailin. As far as we know, they should have arrived and told Howland what they know. Not to mention that some of the survivors of the Red Wedding also know the truth: the Greatjon was another witness and he's still a prisoner. e: People grossly exaggerate GRRM's willingness to defy narrative conventions. He plays with expectations, but he never simply kills a character just to be shocking and waste books worth of development and foreshadowing. Characters have roles to play and each have a purpose. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Jul 15, 2013 |
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Jul 15, 2013 05:18
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In It For The Tank posted:Because at some point Robb's Letter will come into play and kings don't get POVs. This is one thing that irks me about the show. The lack of it there may very well speak to the tail wagging the dog, but only till we see how it plays out in the next book. No letter + Preggars and now dead wife = pretty hosed up detour.
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Jul 15, 2013 14:52
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Fog Tripper posted:This is one thing that irks me about the show. The lack of it there may very well speak to the tail wagging the dog, but only till we see how it plays out in the next book. No letter + Preggars and now dead wife = pretty hosed up detour. There's no reason the show can't introduce the Robb letter later if it turns out to be important, which it probably won't since Jon already turned down Stannis' offer to make him lord of Winterfell. I doubt he'd treat any proclamation by Robb much differently - he's pretty serious about being mr night's watch. Although we'll see how and if that all changes with his death/mortal wounding/warging into a tree/whatever.
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Jul 15, 2013 17:50
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Vigilance posted:There's no reason the show can't... Since the books are incomplete, there's no reason why the show shouldn't kill off Dany. (in fact something I would strongly support) My point is that (if it is ever written) the next book should show whether or not the tail is wagging the dog for the gurm.
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Jul 15, 2013 21:11
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The producers of the show have been told how GRRM intends to end the books. If the show catches up to the books (it will) and Dany dies in the show then either they've just spoiled any remaining book(s) or decided to go off on their own ending for whatever reason.
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Jul 15, 2013 22:17
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Evil Fluffy posted:The producers of the show have been told how GRRM intends to end the books. If the show catches up to the books (it will) and Dany dies in the show then either they've just spoiled any remaining book(s) or decided to go off on their own ending for whatever reason. There is a bit of stuff between the end of ADwD and the end of the series. The end be damned.
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Jul 16, 2013 00:53
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In It For The Tank posted:e: People grossly exaggerate GRRM's willingness to defy narrative conventions. He plays with expectations, but he never simply kills a character just to be shocking and waste books worth of development and foreshadowing. Characters have roles to play and each have a purpose. Yeah, this is how I immediately knew Bran and Rickard's deaths (well, Bran's at least) was bullshit.
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Jul 16, 2013 02:24
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I'm doing a reread while I'm on vacation and I've noticed that a lot of stuff is mentioned really early. Stuff like the Red Priests and the Unsullied are at least talked about as early as Dany's first chapter in AGOT. Obviously it's possible that GRRM just thought they would be cool sounding names but in hindsight it really makes the world seem more consistent and not just "making poo poo up as he goes on".
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Jul 16, 2013 16:27
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emanresu tnuocca posted:(ADWD) Sending the Nights Watch on a suicide mission to Hardhome while simultaneously taking the wildlings south to take back Winterfell was colossally stupid and if I had been a member of the Nights Watch I would have stabbed him too. It wasn't even a smart if you consider the others a legitimate threat sense. It was a sacrifice play that would diminish the NW and strengthen the zombie hordes.
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Jul 16, 2013 16:51
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Ashcans posted:
Plus that everyone that owns it ends up dead.
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Jul 16, 2013 21:30
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It seems counterproductive for Night Watch members to not be allowed to have any kids. They're always in need of more men... just make more! And it would cut down on desertions and whatnot if your family was established there.Petr posted:What was the Night's Watch going to do with someone like Biter, anyway? Why would they even take him? They've mentioned a few times that the trees have grown right up to the Wall in a lot of places. They were going to turn Biter loose on them. stratdax fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Jul 21, 2013 |
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Jul 20, 2013 10:16
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stratdax posted:It seems counterproductive for Night Watch members to not be allows to have any kids. They're always in need or more men... just make more! And it would cut down on desertions and whatnot if your family was established there. They should've just struck a deal with Craster and adopted all of his male offspring.
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Jul 20, 2013 11:21
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stratdax posted:It seems counterproductive for Night Watch members to not be allowed to have any kids. They're always in need or more men... just make more! And it would cut down on desertions and whatnot if your family was established there.
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Jul 20, 2013 22:03
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BjornOfBorg posted:They should've just struck a deal with Craster and adopted all of his male offspring. Craster liked living though. If he hadn't offered his sons he'd have been killed off by the Others.
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Jul 20, 2013 22:07
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BjornOfBorg posted:They should've just struck a deal with Craster and adopted all of his male offspring. Wouldn't that essentially be slavery? Compulsory labor for life, from birth.
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Jul 20, 2013 22:09
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Maarak posted:Wouldn't that essentially be slavery? Compulsory labor for life, from birth. They could've given kids a choice, at least. Like, live in the Wall doing odd jobs and stuff until you're of age and either join up as a Brother or go somewhere else.
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Jul 20, 2013 23:17
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Evil Fluffy posted:Craster liked living though. If he hadn't offered his sons he'd have been killed off by the Others. Are you really spoilering stuff from that early on? Re-re-read update: Pre-Stoneheart (AKA, bitchface Stark) meets with Walder Frey and agrees to have Robb marry one of his daughters. Cat is like the Kevin Bacon of really lovely results. Everything lovely is less than 7 degrees from the fool. Most are 1 degree.
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Jul 21, 2013 02:01
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captain platypus posted:Y'know, Luke Skywalker had this same problem. I don't get it.  Also the more I read these books the more I realize we're supposed to be rooting for the "smallfolk" to rise up and cast down their masters. The entire point of these books is "nobility sucks". Also, will Gendry ever learn who he is, or is it just a kind of running joke? (AFFC)Brienne got so close to telling him then some stupid assholes showed up and ruined everything.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:36
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stratdax posted:I don't get it. It doesn't really matter, since bastards have no rights
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Jul 21, 2013 04:39
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stratdax posted:I don't get it. Whenever the smallfolk rise up against their masters they end up just as bad as the one they cast down. Daenarys liberates two slave cities and after while it all goes to poo poo. The former slaves turns out be just as cruel as their slavers. The entire point of these books is "people sucks".
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Jul 21, 2013 10:18
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Vigilance posted:It doesn't really matter, since bastards have no rights I swear, the things people spoiler in here Then why did Cersie insist on killing any and all she could find in the very first book? Alhazred posted:Whenever the smallfolk rise up against their masters they end up just as bad as the one they cast down. Daenarys liberates two slave cities and after while it all goes to poo poo. The former slaves turns out be just as cruel as their slavers. The entire point of these books is "people sucks". Or a subliminal nod to Arab Spring? Daenarys: The USA of ASoIaF Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Jul 22, 2013 |
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Jul 22, 2013 01:02
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Fog Tripper posted:Then why did Cersie insist on killing any and all she could find in the very first book? Because they were all living proof of Joffrey's illegitimate birth. It's also the reason why Varys was so concerned with protecting Gendry and Stannis was willing to kill Courtnay Penrose to get Edric Storm.
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Jul 22, 2013 01:12
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If you're gonna spoiler tag stuff from the first book, please say which book you're spoiling. I haven't finished the series, so I try to avoid reading any spoilers that don't say which book they're from. There are probably a lot of other people like that in the thread.
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Jul 22, 2013 02:13
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Vigilance posted:It doesn't really matter, since bastards have no rights Bastards can be given rights, just look at Ramsay Bolton. Stannis also offered to make Jon a Stark instead of a Snow
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Jul 22, 2013 11:25
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stratdax posted:I don't get it. In the show, Melisandre tells Gendry who he is.
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Jul 22, 2013 12:48
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Alhazred posted:Bastards can be given rights, just look at Ramsay Bolton. Stannis also offered to make Jon a Stark instead of a Snow They can. It's unlikely anybody would do that for Gendry, though. The only one who might is Stannis but more likely he'd just sacrifice Gendry to make some stone dragons if he knew about him.
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Jul 22, 2013 16:09
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captain platypus posted:The Night's Watch is a lot like the Jedi Order, and Luke renounced a lot of its rules when he founded it post-Return. Oh EU stuff. Anyway I know it wouldn't change much for Gendry, I just like the kid and want him to know who his parents are. But hey speaking of Bastards, I think this happened in Storm of Swords? Not sure. The Dayne kid tells Arya that Ned and Lady Dayne hooked up and had Jon. So that's settled, right? Also, I just finished AFFC. I'm assuming "Pate" is Jaqen H'Gar? Or perhaps another Faceless Man. I had to go back and reread the prologue to see what was up.
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Jul 23, 2013 00:53
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stratdax posted:But hey speaking of Bastards, I think this happened in Storm of Swords? Not sure. The Dayne kid tells Arya that Ned and Lady Dayne hooked up and had Jon. So that's settled, right? (ASOS) Edric Dayne says Wylla is Jon's mother based on the fact she was his wetnurse. quote:Also, I just finished AFFC. I'm assuming "Pate" is Jaqen H'Gar? Or perhaps another Faceless Man. I had to go back and reread the prologue to see what was up. (AFFC) You're right, it's definitely the Faceless Man who was once Jaqen H'ghar. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Jul 23, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 01:01
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