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The rule is that becoming a vampire traps the soul, so Durkon's soul is still in his body, and is still Lawful Good and will go to the LG afterlife if the body is killed, but Durkula the entity is Lawful Evil. Remember, Malack said that if he were resurrected, he would become his pre-vampire self. I think his soul is destroyed because he was killed by sunlight, though.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:08
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Brannock posted:Wouldn't this mean Durkon is in the afterlife, and Vampire Durkon isn't actually Durkon anymore? It would depend on if Burlew goes with the soulless or corrupted soul angle for his version of vampires.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:09
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Brannock posted:Wouldn't this mean Durkon is in the afterlife, and Vampire Durkon isn't actually Durkon anymore? In D&D lore, it's often indicated that becoming undead prevents one from reaching the afterlife, meaning in most cases undead have souls. In some cases (especially liches) undead very explicitly have souls. Only the mindless types are represented as being soulless.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:16
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Durkon can't be in the afterlife, because he asked the Oracle how he would return and the answer was posthumously. If he is in the afterlife, then he's going to visit it as a ghost like Roy did or get resurrected there. But I don't think Rich would go this route because it'd be so obvious.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:19
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When V reanimated the dragon's head to taunt her with the familicide spell, her soul was sucked from the afterlife and into her undead form. That would seem to imply that the undead body contains the soul in OOTSverse, though of course Rich will bend that rule however he likes if it adds more drama to the piece.
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Jul 30, 2013 21:52
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Vaarsuvius reanimated the dragon head in #639 using Create Greater Undead, which produces undead of at least 6 INT. The wiki says nothing about them having any memories of their previous life/soul, but if we went entirely by D&D rules this comic would've been 300 pages long and only fun to sperglords/GitP forum members.
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Jul 30, 2013 22:05
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Hmm, that is interesting in malack's case. Does his intial "live" soul go somewhere, or would the "vampiric" soul go to Nergal?
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Jul 30, 2013 22:06
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TunaSpleen posted:Vaarsuvius reanimated the dragon head in #639 using Create Greater Undead, which produces undead of at least 6 INT. The wiki says nothing about them having any memories of their previous life/soul, but if we went entirely by D&D rules this comic would've been 300 pages long and only fun to sperglords/GitP forum members. There's one line in there that implies the dragon does remember her life (and brief afterlife). Of course it could also be that V's necromancer-splice had researched a unique form of undead that traps souls so that she could continue to torment them after killing them. It's the sort of thing an epic evil necromancer would do.
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Jul 30, 2013 22:27
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I'm pretty sure there's only one soul. And when an undead it created, the soul is bound to it. In the case of a mindless undead, the soul is still there -- just a prisoner, fueling the animation of its corpse, but unable to control it. At least that's how I've always seen it used in my own anecdotal experience of D&D play. The fact that if someone has been turned into a mindless undead, the undead still needs to be destroyed for resurrection to be possible ("You can resurrect [...] someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed"; even true resurrection requires undead to be destroyed first despite not requiring any form of remains).
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Jul 30, 2013 22:27
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That's why the undead are an abomination, (as opposed to making bone golems out of someone, which is just rude) because it does warp the soul and nature of a person. There isn't some good Durkon floating about the afterlife enjoying beers. Durkon is right there, an evil monster doing the bidding of a different evil monster. And now he's going to go back home, and cause the absolute destruction he was prophesied to cause.
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Jul 30, 2013 22:37
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greatn posted:Don't most evil characters, even high level ones, just turn into slime for low level demons to eat? "Be a vampire, or a ghost, or an immortal with a paint-by-numbers portrait in the rec room. Hell, even a brain-in-a-jar, in a pinch. Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below." http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html
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Jul 30, 2013 22:42
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DoctorTristan posted:There's one line in there that implies the dragon does remember her life (and brief afterlife). Of course it could also be that V's necromancer-splice had researched a unique form of undead that traps souls so that she could continue to torment them after killing them. It's the sort of thing an epic evil necromancer would do. Yeah, I just couldn't remember if Haera was epic or not but anyone who's got the gold and XP to burn to create Familicide has clearly got the time on their hands to trap sentient heads for torturing purposes. edit: okay, all three splices were admitted to be epic in #633 TunaSpleen fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 22:48
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Johnny Aztec posted:Hmm, that is interesting in malack's case. Does his intial "live" soul go somewhere, or would the "vampiric" soul go to Nergal? Not sure about D&D specifically but I know a fair few vampire/undead lore systems have a 'redemption in death', where the soul is finally at peace. Putting their soul to rest, as it was. Unless they voluntarily opted to be a vampire, but then that's probably going to make them evil to begin with.
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Jul 31, 2013 01:46
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MikeJF posted:A long shot for the next comic: Nale grandly announces to Durkon that congratulations, he's free of Malack's thralldom and has his own will back; Durkon says 'thank ye' and kills him.
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Jul 31, 2013 02:42
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I doubt Nale is going to bite it anytime soon. He's been too built up to be snuffed so easily.
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Jul 31, 2013 02:45
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I assume if Nale bit it here Sabine would see to getting that fixed up.
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Jul 31, 2013 02:51
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Yes, I expect at least one more appearance of Nale, Sabine and Thog working as a team doing something. But if Rich Burlew wanted to throw in a curveball in by suddenly offing him now, I don't think it would make the story feel incomplete in a significant way. Edit: Not to say if he doesn't die it would mean he's overstaying his welcome; it would work either way.
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Jul 31, 2013 02:55
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MikeJF posted:I assume if Nale bit it here Sabine would see to getting that fixed up. She can't if if Nale bit it because Durkula bit him. 
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Jul 31, 2013 03:00
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Durkon bites Nale, makes him HIS vampire thrall.
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Jul 31, 2013 03:01
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The thing that stands out to me most about this most recent comic is just how much hatred Nale has for Malack on a personal level. I mean, we've seen Nale do the angry, "The world owes me my due!" villainous monologue schtick before, that's nothing new. But here, look at how emotional he gets as he chews out Malack during the vampire's final moments. Look at the panel with the, "I murdered your children as a practice run," line; he's literally spitting these words at Malack. And the way he's panting at the end, he's actually out of breath. For a guy as long-winded as Nale to be out of breath, after what for him was a relatively short speech... it's kind of scary.
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Jul 31, 2013 03:06
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W.T. Fits posted:The thing that stands out to me most about this most recent comic is just how much hatred Nale has for Malack on a personal level. I mean, we've seen Nale do the angry, "The world owes me my due!" villainous monologue schtick before, that's nothing new. But here, look at how emotional he gets as he chews out Malack during the vampire's final moments. Look at the panel with the, "I murdered your children as a practice run," line; he's literally spitting these words at Malack. And the way he's panting at the end, he's actually out of breath. For a guy as long-winded as Nale to be out of breath, after what for him was a relatively short speech... it's kind of scary. I thought he was out of breath more from beating the poo poo out of Malack with his bare hands.
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Jul 31, 2013 03:08
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Colonel Cool posted:I thought he was out of breath more from beating the poo poo out of Malack with his bare hands. He didn't, though. He kicked Malack once, and that was more because it helped him rip off Malack's cloak than because it would have done any real harm at this point. Similarly, in the "Now BURN, you insufferable leech!" panel, he's just tearing off Malack's robe, not actually physically striking him.
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Jul 31, 2013 03:15
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I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was more that he didn't quite realize/know that Malack would catch fire if he was exposed to the sun, and expected Malack would've attempted to catch him in it too.
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Jul 31, 2013 03:49
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No, I'm with W.T. on this one. This was personal. I wonder what Malack did to Nale...and whether it was real or imagined...that set the time bomb that is Nale's hate ticking. Maybe we'll never know, but I hope we do find out sometime.
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Jul 31, 2013 05:30
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Wonder if we are going to get a flash back here soon. Some humanizing story of Nale finding a true friend, and that friend getting swept up in...whatever and Malack ate him. Or perhaps one of his Thralls did. Which would have been the same thing.
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Jul 31, 2013 05:34
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I kind of can't believe that we've had nearly three weeks of consistent updates. I hope this trend lasts, knock on wood.
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Jul 31, 2013 05:47
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jng2058 posted:No, I'm with W.T. on this one. This was personal. I wonder what Malack did to Nale...and whether it was real or imagined...that set the time bomb that is Nale's hate ticking. Maybe we'll never know, but I hope we do find out sometime. Drakyn posted:EDIT2: Oh cool, Nale probably hated Malack due to whatever his 'teaching' him entailed. Man, the stuff you forget between months. Here's a thought: Tarquin and his allies periodically switch partners and kingdoms, right? What if Tarquin switched, but left Nale behind to be raised by Malack for some reason. (Necessary for his next con? To seduce more women? Just because Tarquin is a bastard?) Baby Nale was already snatched away from his mother by Tarquin, and now six year-old Nale is left to be raised by a horrible undead monster; even if Malack tried to be a conscientious parent to Nale and teach him stuff, Nale would probably hella resent it.
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Jul 31, 2013 08:40
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But yeah, I think the root lesson here is that even if you're really skilled with magic and have a nice protective spell, you still shouldn't be that cavalier in exposing yourself to something that can utterly destroy you in approximately six seconds. It just opens up possibilities that you probably don't want to face.
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Jul 31, 2013 09:28
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So, Going back through the plot with the vampire from the beginning revelation and the knowledge of the posthumously thing. What happened to Hilgya again? She might actually come back and play a really big role?
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Jul 31, 2013 11:13
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I don't know if word of recall is too high level for Malack, and it probably is, but just like mastercard he should never have left home without it.
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Jul 31, 2013 13:06
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My question here - which I don't think has been brought up before - is "why didn't Malack have an enchanted item with continuous Protection from Daylight?" I haven't played DnD for a while, and I don't know what spell level it would be, but he seems to have access to a massive amount of resources with which to make one. It'd also be less vulnerable to dispel effects (barring something like a Disjunction). If he really wanted to, he could prepare both the spell and use the item in case someone disarmed him of the item (although I imagine "remove an amulet/ring from a vampire" is tricky at best).
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Jul 31, 2013 14:48
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Pyrolocutus posted:My question here - which I don't think has been brought up before - is "why didn't Malack have an enchanted item with continuous Protection from Daylight?" I haven't played DnD for a while, and I don't know what spell level it would be, but he seems to have access to a massive amount of resources with which to make one. It'd also be less vulnerable to dispel effects (barring something like a Disjunction). If he really wanted to, he could prepare both the spell and use the item in case someone disarmed him of the item (although I imagine "remove an amulet/ring from a vampire" is tricky at best). He did, it was the staff, as was explicitly stated in the comic
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Jul 31, 2013 15:01
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Pyrolocutus posted:My question here - which I don't think has been brought up before - is "why didn't Malack have an enchanted item with continuous Protection from Daylight?" I haven't played DnD for a while, and I don't know what spell level it would be, but he seems to have access to a massive amount of resources with which to make one. It'd also be less vulnerable to dispel effects (barring something like a Disjunction). If he really wanted to, he could prepare both the spell and use the item in case someone disarmed him of the item (although I imagine "remove an amulet/ring from a vampire" is tricky at best). But rest easy - if you want to indict Malack for Crimes Against D&D Common Sense, greatn brought up a much stronger point in that it was completely retarded for him not to prepare word of recall (6th level spell). I can't come up with a justification for that one other than the blanket "it's a comic strip, it doesn't have to be 100% consistent", which isn't really a justification, more like a shrug.
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Jul 31, 2013 15:06
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Well, the staff holds the spell for him to cast, but I think it's more about a ring or whatever that grants him protection as long as he wears it. To which the most realistic answer probably is "because the story demands Nale can kill him here." But also, presumably after you get turned learning the spell becomes a big priority, after that making a staff is cheaper than making a permanent item so you start with that, and once that has worked for you for 5 to 10 to 100 years you go "eh, this works fine, I can save some cash" and chuck the plans for the permanent enchanted version in the bin.
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Jul 31, 2013 15:06
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Pyrolocutus posted:My question here - which I don't think has been brought up before - is "why didn't Malack have an enchanted item with continuous Protection from Daylight?" I haven't played DnD for a while, and I don't know what spell level it would be, but he seems to have access to a massive amount of resources with which to make one. It'd also be less vulnerable to dispel effects (barring something like a Disjunction). If he really wanted to, he could prepare both the spell and use the item in case someone disarmed him of the item (although I imagine "remove an amulet/ring from a vampire" is tricky at best). For the same reason as every other variant of "Why didn't character X take action Y which would clearly be optimal because  ": the characters in OOTS are not robots and often make poor choices, be it through ignorance, arrogance, or simply panicking in the heat of the moment. Nearly every character in the strip has been guilty of this at some point - I'd argue that the destruction of each gate up to this point has been in large part due to the hubris of its protector - and the strip could barely function as a story if every character behaved optimally.If you want a more specific reason though, pick one or more from: * He chose not to take the 'Craft Wondrous Item'/'Forge Ring' feat * He had his abjuration prepared twice, plus more in his staff, and assumed he was safe * It's been a very long time since he faced a serious threat, and he got cocky/forgot how vulnerable he actually was
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Jul 31, 2013 15:21
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Don't forget assuming Nale would be too stupid to realize what would happen as soon as their mission was done, and even if he did, assuming that Nale would be far too injured to face him in a head-on fight OR Nale would have to contend with Tarquin and his men if he waited to recover. And apparently never learning how to defend against grappling. (Can you actually learn to? I've never played D&D, so all I know is that grappling is usually far more trouble than it's worth on a meta sense for all parties involved.)
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Jul 31, 2013 15:45
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"Learning to defend against grappling" is basically taking the improved grappling feats. Outside of a few gimmick builds and certain classes (Monks and fighters) there really isn't much of a point of taking it, and even still for Monks and fighters it's only because it's one of their free feat choices. (And most Monks are going to take Stunning Fist)
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Jul 31, 2013 15:58
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Besides, you can dispel magic items. It only suppresses them for 1d6 rounds but that's a 84% chance of being sufficient in this case. And it also puts you at the mercy of a sleight of hand check. A difficult one in the case of a magic ring but for a well trained equal level rogue it'd be possible. A smart caster would probably put more preparation into this if death was only a single dice roll away but Malack was never put forward as terribly well prepared. peak debt fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 16:03
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You can't make a wondrous item with a particular magic property, or cast permanency on a spell unless the book says you can. So Protection from Daylight, which is not a book spell, would never work as an enchanted ring. Malack's real boner here is going to the middle of a desert without preparing word of recall. But hell, he probably did prepare it and had to burn the spell to spontaneously cast harm on himself so he didn't get killed by Durkon earlier.
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Jul 31, 2013 16:37
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You can make a magic item that continually casts any spell with a duration. Anyway, a magic item containing protection from daylight would have the lowest possible caster level to cast that spell at. So since a single dispel puts Malack in such a bad situation, unless he was exactly the level needed to cast PfD and he never planned on getting a new character level ever again, it makes a lot of sense to cast it fresh each day.
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Jul 31, 2013 16:44
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