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E: on second thought, never mind. So, in an attempt to purge my mind of that... Has this thread discussed any sorts of Eva parodies yet? Regalingualius fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Aug 2, 2013 |
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Aug 2, 2013 07:33
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Regalingualius posted:...Crap, now I've got mental imagery of some sort of Eva and menstruation symbolism that I can't get out. Pretty much the entirety of Evangelion is a bunch of crusty old rich dudes trying to conceive, incubate, and birth a god in their own image -- if only they weren't so reliant on those pesky women and children! Also the woman in question is symbolically associated with the moon, and the Impacts represent a cyclical failure to create new life. And every time the control capsules are removed from an Evangelion, it ejects the pilot in a gush of LCL. So yeah. You only just thought of this?  EDIT: TOO LATE Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Aug 2, 2013 |
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Aug 2, 2013 07:43
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Not to mention Rei's line about "the scent of blood from a woman who does not bleed" from when she's having her trip.
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Aug 2, 2013 07:54
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Paracelsus posted:Not to mention Rei's line about "the scent of blood from a woman who does not bleed" from when she's having her trip. Wow, now I feel like I'm off the atomic scale when it comes to density. Every time I'd hear that line I'd go "what the hell does that mean". EDIT: and... and... evangelion... periods??? Now that I think about it, Shinji spent like a month inside of Unit-01 after he got absorbed in the fight with Zereul. And he ends up just sort of splurting out of it.
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Aug 2, 2013 08:10
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Like some weird version where instead of popping everyone turned into an EVA and did a B-Ball jumpshot with their skull into the NervHoop.
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Aug 2, 2013 08:21
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Oh thanks guys. Now all I can think of is that this series is just a psychological product of Anno's menstrual envy.
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Aug 2, 2013 11:14
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Hey, at least it's not just "everything is penises" exclusively for once.
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Aug 2, 2013 16:14
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Regalingualius posted:Hey, at least it's not just "everything is penises" exclusively for once.
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Aug 2, 2013 16:44
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Paracelsus posted:The entry plug can be seen as both! Giant tampon
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Aug 2, 2013 17:53
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MadRhetoric posted:Giant tampon I love this thread  EoE question: During Instrumentality, right after Gendo gets eaten by Unit 01, and before the piture of the 3 Reis standing around, there's a scene with Gendo's glasses sitting on the ground, and someone standing in the background. Who is that person? Edit: This scene here:  Double edit: VVV Oh, I can kind of see that now. I thought Unit 1 ate him whole for some reason. A Pinball Wizard fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Aug 3, 2013 |
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Aug 3, 2013 02:16
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A Pinball Wizard posted:I love this thread
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Aug 3, 2013 02:19
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Paracelsus posted:I'm reasonably certain it's Gendo's headless body, after the less-armored image of Unit-01 goes chomp. So Gendo doesn't get turned into LCL?
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Aug 3, 2013 07:19
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Ekusukariba posted:So Gendo doesn't get turned into LCL?
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Aug 3, 2013 08:39
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I admit I'd always thought that it was a subjective portrayal of Gendo entering Instrumentality in a terribly painful and guilt-ridden way, trying to atone for how he'd treated Shinji, although I admit I'd never noticed his headless torso there. So perhaps not. Don't worry though, the Simple English Wikipedia explains everything: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion posted:Neon Genesis Evangelion (In Japanese: 新世紀エヴァンゲリオン Shin Seiki Evangelion) is a popular Japanese anime and manga that began in 1995. The anime was created by Gainax, written and directed by Hideaki Anno and co-produced by TV Tokyo and Nihon Ad Systems (NAS). It is an action series involving giant robots, troubled teenage heroes, shadowy government branches and huge monsters called Angels. It is set in the year 2015, and features many references to Christianity.
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Aug 3, 2013 18:16
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House Louse posted:I admit I'd always thought that it was a subjective portrayal of Gendo entering Instrumentality in a terribly painful and guilt-ridden way, trying to atone for how he'd treated Shinji, although I admit I'd never noticed his headless torso there. So perhaps not. I like this. Plus we never see Asuka turn into LCL either if I remember correctly, but she isn't left out.
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Aug 3, 2013 21:22
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I like this. Plus we never see Asuka turn into LCL either if I remember correctly, but she isn't left out. She wasn't exactly in one piece for Rei to turn her into tang like everyone else.
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Aug 3, 2013 21:30
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I guess it's left sort of ambiguous whether Asuka was alive or dead (though it's kind of hard to imagine she was alive after getting her arm sliced in two, and all that stuff). I think that Rei basically just "chose" people, like how she appeared with Misato before she's finished off by the explosion. I would bet that Rei chose Asuka as well, we just don't see it explicitly (or even at all, it's been a while since I've watched EoE).
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Aug 3, 2013 21:37
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Well, we see several copies of Rei wandering around Nerv HQ, hovering over pools of LCL that were clearly dead bodies not long before; I'm pretty sure everyone (except maybe Gendo?) gets tanged, but since we as the audience are invested in the main characters we get to see what tanging is like from their perspectives. Also, it's heavily implied that Rei transmogrifies into someone the target loved before dissolving them - Ibuki and Ritsuko, Fyutsuki and Yui, Hyuga and Misato - and since the whole point of the conversation before he gets eaten was that Gendo never really loved anyone (except Yui), not even his own son, maybe that means he never gets to join humanity in the great sea of Sunny D?
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Aug 3, 2013 22:31
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Plus we never see Asuka turn into LCL either if I remember correctly, but she isn't left out. We don't. A Pinball Wizard posted:Also, it's heavily implied that Rei transmogrifies into someone the target loved before dissolving them - Ibuki and Ritsuko, Fyutsuki and Yui, Hyuga and Misato - and since the whole point of the conversation before he gets eaten was that Gendo never really loved anyone (except Yui), not even his own son, maybe that means he never gets to join humanity in the great sea of Sunny D? Gendo met Yui though 
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Aug 3, 2013 22:45
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Paracelsus posted:I'm reasonably certain it's Gendo's headless body, after the less-armored image of Unit-01 goes chomp. You can even see the remains of his spine poking up where his head should be. Something I hold out hope for in 4.0 is a confrontation between Shinji and Gendo. Gendo is the real villain of the series, and he got off rather lightly in EoE all things considered, it'd be nice to have a moment where he has to own up to ruining Shinjis life to his face.
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Aug 4, 2013 01:26
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I think any confrontation between Shinji and Gendo should end with Shinji sparing Gendo's life and just walking away from it all. Considering how close he's come to becoming like his father, I find it would be fun to see that story end with Shinji abandoning his father instead.
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Aug 4, 2013 01:38
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Shinjobi posted:I think any confrontation between Shinji and Gendo should end with Shinji sparing Gendo's life and just walking away from it all. Considering how close he's come to becoming like his father, I find it would be fun to see that story end with Shinji abandoning his father instead. Best part is it works for either a happy or a dark ending. Happy Ending Shinji has finally developed his own sense of agency and doesn't need to deal with his father's insanity any more, successfully moving past it. Depressing Ending Shinji (...so, Shinji, basically ) can't bring himself to actually have any agency and remains incapable of successfully confronting Gendo, no doubt taking a good tongue-lashing and slinking away in defeat.
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Aug 4, 2013 01:45
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A Pinball Wizard posted:Well, we see several copies of Rei wandering around Nerv HQ, hovering over pools of LCL that were clearly dead bodies not long before; I'm pretty sure everyone (except maybe Gendo?) gets tanged, but since we as the audience are invested in the main characters we get to see what tanging is like from their perspectives. You're half right, Rei does appear as a persons love before tanging them, and if you notice one of the bridge bunnies gets tanged by a gang of Rei's while crying in the corner and shaking in fear, in direct contrast to the bridge bunny who tangs while crying tears of joy and hugging what's her name. The implication being that he never truly loved anyone, so when the end came he was all alone and scared while all the others had someone they could take comfort in joining with in death/the great tang in the sky. Gendo wasn't rejected from instrumentality because he didn't have a love, it was a more personal rejection by Rei (choosing Shinji to control instrumentality) and then Yui (chomping him via the EVA) Also I'd strongly recomend watching the english commentary of EoE, they have a guy whos job is to explain a lot of the esoteric references and symbolic stuff, as well as Shinji's voice actor talking about how he (kinda) got over his hate of Shinji's character, all interesting stuff!
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Aug 4, 2013 14:59
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So I just finished the television series, and will probably watch EoE tonight. I have some questions about the "scenario" though. I guess I'm just trying to get this all straight in my head. What I understand to be the timeline below: 1. Second Impact? First(Or second  ) Angel explodes after appearing/being tested on.2. Man decides to replicate God-like angels by creating Evas, which are made from Adam (the remains of the second impact angel? ) 3. Angels start appearing 15 years later, and Evas fight angels. 4. Remains of angel from second impact/adam is grown in the basement of Nerv? (Seele's Logo is its face though? )If my timeline is completely wrong please correct me I'm still majorly confused. My question is all throughout the second half of the tv series Gendo, when speaking to Fuyutski and Seele, talks about his "scenario", and how things are going to plan. My question is how detailed is their plan/scenario? Was it like a game of chess where they thought ahead for every move and variable that could occur? Did they know all those people would die, and that Shinji would run and return when he did, and that Unit 1 would eat the angel? Was the scenario only Gendo's? Near the end Seele and Gendo keep trying to stay one step ahead of the other, but if they were both following the same scenario wouldn't that be impossible?  Sorry if my spoiler tag is all over the place.
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Aug 4, 2013 15:02
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Actually the Angel in the basement is Lilith, the precursor of all life on Earth, Kaji just misidentified it as Adam (Kaworu realizes this in Episode 24). Adam is still embryonic and Gendo have fused it to his hand as part of his plan, but this is only made completely clear in the Director's Cut version of the episode.
Utritum fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Aug 4, 2013 |
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Aug 4, 2013 15:15
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Also Eva Unit 01 was born from Lillith. There's a scene (not sure if it's in the original or Director's Cut) where they flash a picture of Unit 01 emerging/being grown from Lillith's legs, which I believe is why they are still messed up when we see her in Terminal Dogma. That's why it eating the S2 Engine was so important for the scenario: Lillith, progenitor of mankind, holds the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. The Angels hold the fruit of the Tree of Life (the S2 Engine, their power source). Eva Unit 01 has both and thus becomes God. (I think someone actually says that... Ritsuko maybe?) PootieTang posted:You're half right, Rei does appear as a persons love before tanging them, and if you notice one of the bridge bunnies gets tanged by a gang of Rei's while crying in the corner and shaking in fear, in direct contrast to the bridge bunny who tangs while crying tears of joy and hugging what's her name. The implication being that he never truly loved anyone, so when the end came he was all alone and scared while all the others had someone they could take comfort in joining with in death/the great tang in the sky. Gendo wasn't rejected from instrumentality because he didn't have a love, it was a more personal rejection by Rei (choosing Shinji to control instrumentality) and then Yui (chomping him via the EVA) Yeah, I knew about that, I just figured it was the difference between "never really got around to falling in love (Aoba) versus "closing off your heart from the one person you're supposed to love unconditionally because you're scared of people and emo about your wife dying" (Gendo)
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Aug 4, 2013 15:28
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As for the scenario, Gendo and SEELE more or less had the same plan until the end, though they did throw each other some hardballs (I.E. bringing down NERV's power grid, having Unit 01 absorb an S2 engine). At that point, SEELE wanted Kaworu to be the one that would merge with Lilith, while Gendo wanted Adam's embryo and Rei to be the catalysts. There was something about what would happen in Gendo's plan that SEELE did not want happening at all, though I can't quite remember what it was.
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Aug 4, 2013 16:46
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Regalingualius posted:As for the scenario, Gendo and SEELE more or less had the same plan until the end, though they did throw each other some hardballs (I.E. bringing down NERV's power grid, having Unit 01 absorb an S2 engine). At that point, SEELE wanted Kaworu to be the one that would merge with Lilith, while Gendo wanted Adam's embryo and Rei to be the catalysts. There was something about what would happen in Gendo's plan that SEELE did not want happening at all, though I can't quite remember what it was. Was the EoE scenario with the mass production EVAs their backup then basically? It seems like they were relatively happy with the final result when their monoliths were being switched off.
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Aug 4, 2013 16:56
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Considering the MPs had Kaworu as the basis for their dummy plugs, I'm thinking it was that and to also keep Gendo from starting his/Yui's Third Impact.
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Aug 4, 2013 17:08
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Regalingualius posted:There was something about what would happen in Gendo's plan that SEELE did not want happening at all, though I can't quite remember what it was. IIRC, Gendo's plan was that people would merge together into LCL while maintaining their individual personalities (thus allowing Gendo to reunite with Yui), while Seele's plan was to simply merge everyone together into a "perfected" being that lacked any sort of individual identity.
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Aug 4, 2013 17:25
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So was Lillith the god during second impact? Are the Evas aside from Unit 1 born of Adam? But I thought Adam was an embryo?  What was the deal with the Lance of Longinus? I remember the episode where they put it in, and then when they took it out and threw it into space, but what was its purpose?
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Aug 4, 2013 22:25
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Vermain posted:IIRC, Gendo's plan was that people would merge together into LCL while maintaining their individual personalities (thus allowing Gendo to reunite with Yui), while Seele's plan was to simply merge everyone together into a "perfected" being that lacked any sort of individual identity. Based on some videogame developer's second-hand summing up of Anno rambling about ideas he had for the series. RebBrownies posted:So was Lillith the god during second impact? No, the entity that started Second Impact was Adam. Think of it as he woke up, burnt off all his energy, and that's how he was reduced to an embryo. The Evangelions are supposedly based on Adam but this is part of the espionage and bullshittery that SEELE and Gendo are throwing at each other; they're actually formed from Lilith. There's a scene in the director's cut where someone (I forget who) takes Shinji down to Terminal Dogma and on the way they see thousands of Eva spare parts and spinal columns. The Lance of Longinus is a weapon or tool that can pierce AT fields. Going by the same source Vermain is alluding to, it's an alien artifact designed as a failsafe in case two world seeds like Adam or Lilith fell on the same planet; every seed has one, it's supposed to seal away the one that isn't meant for that planet. Earth was meant for Adam, but Lilith's spear was damaged, so instead his spear activated and locked him down and Earth was populated by humans instead of Angels. (Until Second Impact woke him back up.) Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Aug 4, 2013 |
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Aug 4, 2013 22:27
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RebBrownies posted:So was Lillith the god during second impact? Adam was the god discovered/tested on in second impact, he was shrunk into an embryo. The discovery of the Geo-Front led to Lilith, which was predicted by the Dead Sea Scrolls that SEELE seems so fond of. The Lance is a fail-safe device that basically halts an impact in its tracks, or puts a deity in suspended animation like Lilith is shown to be for most of the series. Though gently caress if I know how the Lance(s) are used in EoE. hope and vaseline fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Aug 4, 2013 |
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Aug 4, 2013 22:31
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Based on some videogame developer's second-hand summing up of Anno rambling about ideas he had for the series. I think the videogame information actually stated that SEELE's plan was for their souls specifically to be merged together (necessitating the tangification of everyone else) and stuffed into the S^2 equipped, awakened Eva 01 so they could gently caress off into deep space to live as a "god", like Lilith or Adam or whatever, while the rest of humanity get left to their own devices in the tang sea. So...yeah. Videogames!
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Aug 4, 2013 23:23
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Shazaminator posted:I think the videogame information actually stated that SEELE's plan was for their souls specifically to be merged together (necessitating the tangification of everyone else) and stuffed into the S^2 equipped, awakened Eva 01 so they could gently caress off into deep space to live as a "god", like Lilith or Adam or whatever, while the rest of humanity get left to their own devices in the tang sea. Well, isn't that basically what Yui did?
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Aug 4, 2013 23:41
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A Pinball Wizard posted:Well, isn't that basically what Yui did? Yui left humanity the option of returning to their original form, or at least arranged for Shinji to do so.
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Aug 4, 2013 23:43
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Just finished EoE. Loved the animation. I was really rooting for Shinji throughout the whole anime, but this movie really left me with the impression that he was an unreliable narrator? Maybe I'm not using the right term, but the tv series really hammered in the sense of persecution and empathy with Shinji on the viewer, and I was left as confused as Shinji. Like when all the characters at the end were lecturing him, I really didn't understand where they were coming from or understand their criticisms. I definitely empathized with that sense of helplessness and being left in the dark. In the film though I felt the viewpoint was shifted from that of the "persecuted victim" to that of the persecutors looking at Shinji's action in the real world. I was now seeing what I perceived as Shinji's fear and confusion as extreme cowardice and rejection of any responsibility. ...So yeah I feel like the whole mecha thing was just a really awesome vehicle for a character study  .The whole thing was loving bonkers. 3 questions: 1. Why did Gendo get left out/ Unit 1 eat his upper body? I thought Yui was in on all this instrumentality/scenario hocus pocus. 2. Any significance to the live action shots used in the film? Like the movie theatre? 3. Concerning the final scene: Is there any explanation to the dynamic between Shinji and Asuka in the end? I read that the strangling bit was the need to hold another human/be yelled at (attaining acknowledgement), but Asuka gently touches his face which struck me as reassuring. Then she said "disgusting" which strikes me as the exact opposite. What is going on
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Aug 5, 2013 02:47
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1. Yui was the secret mastermind behind everthing, she was using Gendo all along so that she could become a giant robot and drift in space forever as a testament to mankind's existence or whatever 2. To gently caress with you 3. No one knows
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Aug 5, 2013 02:55
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RebBrownies posted:In the film though I felt the viewpoint was shifted from that of the "persecuted victim" to that of the persecutors looking at Shinji's action in the real world. I was now seeing what I perceived as Shinji's fear and confusion as extreme cowardice and rejection of any responsibility. It's kind of both. The situation Shinji is placed in is completely unfair and unlivable from day one; he has no role models, what little advice he's given is often accidentally or even deliberately misguided, and driving him to a nervous breakdown appears to be an essential part of the Instrumentality process. The thing to remember is that Evangelion was meant to "kill" the mecha genre -- you're supposed to compare Shinji to the heroic, selfless protagonists of Gundam or Macross or whatever and see that's he's obviously incapable of living up to that standard. More than that, by EoE he really is a pathetic, sick person. But I don't think you're meant to dwell on this, but rather ask -- why? How did the quiet, well-intentioned protector of the weak from the first half dozen episodes become this? So really neither your sympathy nor your repulsion are wrong. RebBrownies posted:2. Any significance to the live action shots used in the film? Like the movie theatre? Lots of possible answers to this one. Anno symbolically erases the audience, which seems like an insult, but it also means that the audience is included in Instrumentality, which has (arguably) just the opposite meaning. RebBrownies posted:3. Concerning the final scene: Is there any explanation to the dynamic between Shinji and Asuka in the end? I read that the strangling bit was the need to hold another human/be yelled at (attaining acknowledgement), but Asuka gently touches his face which struck me as reassuring. Then she said "disgusting" which strikes me as the exact opposite. What is going on And this is literally the most debated question in the entire series. But I think the contradiction you're asking about is a pretty decent answer; the whole series is about Shinji (and everyone's) broken and mismanaged attempts at forming connections, while only managing to hurt each other. Here's something I said about it a while ago: Tuxedo Catfish posted:... the remarkable thing about the scene where Shinji strangles Asuka isn't that he tries to kill her. The Instrumentality sequence itself has at least one scene where they express their loathing for each other, IIRC Asuka even says she'd rather die than erase the boundary between them. (Well, not explicitly, the scene's constructed so she could be talking about anything from Instrumentality to sex to simply co-existing. But they're degrees of the same thing, at least for this purpose.)
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Aug 5, 2013 03:00
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Dred Cosmonaut posted:1. Yui was the secret mastermind behind everthing, she was using Gendo all along so that she could become a giant robot and drift in space forever as a testament to mankind's existence or whatever So did Yui know everything that was going to happen? What do they mean when they say humanity was the 18th angel?
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Aug 5, 2013 03:02
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