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Intel&Sebastian posted:I think of the show and movies as a really good tale with surprising amount of internal consistency...that also completely drops the ball in places. There's a lot of stuff that was way more thought out and interesting that I initially thought and there's a lot of stuff that you're probably better off just forgetting about. It's one of those works where you think holy poo poo this probably should've been way bigger of a mess than it is. I think you should pop into the recommendation thread and ask for some suggestions. There's nothing quite like Eva(since Eva has had like 20 years to build on its absurdity) but there's plenty of top-notch series out there. I'll kick some suggestions your way myself via PM, but the entire genre of anime is incredibly vast to an extent I don't think you realize, and there are series that are just as good, if not better, than Evangelion.
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Aug 7, 2013 03:41
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I've always been of the opinion that Eva is simultaneously a fascinating and at times profound piece of art; and a pandering, half-conceived, loving disaster. I see no contradiction, really. If Shinji's story speaks to you, then it's art. If it doesn't it's schlock. These are both easily defensible positions.
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Aug 7, 2013 03:42
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MadRhetoric posted:Did BrandorKP hack your account, Tux? Kaworu is the last Angel, but he's also Adam, the progenitor of the other Angels. That moment in Terminal Dogma is his last chance to either realize the goal that every Angel strove for (which would have included the extinction of mankind) or to abandon their cause out of love for humanity. Maybe "redeeming" is too strong a word, but I think it's reasonable to say that Kaworu is acting for all Angel-kind when he lets himself die. MadRhetoric posted:And Tabris is the Angel of Free Will. Sacrificing himself on the altar of Shinji's love and hurt is the ultimate act of free will. Shinji feels he's been betrayed because Kaworu was nice to him, but since Kaworu doesn't actually go through with erasing mankind, it's not a full betrayal. Even if you believe it is, Shinji is willing to jump right back into his (giant, naked) arms to kick off pre-Instrumentality in EoE. I agree with all of this and don't think it contradicts what I'm saying, except for the last sentence. Shinji is forcibly led to the cross: the moment of Instrumentality is the moment at which his personal agency has reached its nadir. A friend of mine likes to describe EoE as "Shinji watching Lovecraftian entities fornicating while disguised as his best friends," and while I take a slightly less bleak view of the film than he does, I don't remember anything that suggests he was like "okay let's do this apocalypse" until he tells Lilith/Rei to make everyone die.
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Aug 7, 2013 04:02
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Spiritus Nox posted:I've always been of the opinion that Eva is simultaneously a fascinating and at times profound piece of art; and a pandering, half-conceived, loving disaster. I see no contradiction, really. If Shinji's story speaks to you, then it's art. If it doesn't it's schlock. These are both easily defensible positions. You don't have to give a poo poo about Shinji to stare mindlessly at the Rebuild movies and enjoy every second of it. It's one of those things that does everything right and has something for both sides to enjoy; it's simultaneously a well written character study set in a fascinating and deeply engaging world as well as a badass mecha action show featuring fantastic art and animation. It's drat near impossible to not find something to like.
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Aug 7, 2013 05:03
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ViggyNash posted:You don't have to give a poo poo about Shinji to stare mindlessly at the Rebuild movies and enjoy every second of it. It's one of those things that does everything right and has something for both sides to enjoy; it's simultaneously a well written character study set in a fascinating and deeply engaging world as well as a badass mecha action show featuring fantastic art and animation. It's drat near impossible to not find something to like. Well, yeah, I was just speaking more in terms of the artsy-fartsy 'Literary Merit' stuff.
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Aug 7, 2013 05:18
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A Pinball Wizard posted:Fake edit: Guys, I think I just realized Evangelion makes no sense Neither does postmodern thought as a whole, which Eva is almost as heavily influenced by as Japanese nerd poo poo. Buckle up. Spiritus Nox posted:I've always been of the opinion that Eva is simultaneously a fascinating and at times profound piece of art; and a pandering, half-conceived, loving disaster. I see no contradiction, really. If Shinji's story speaks to you, then it's art. If it doesn't it's schlock. These are both easily defensible positions. It is fascinating and profound in its hosed-uppedness. Art through adversity, as it were. Note that the episodes where Anno has it together mentally are the most dark and mean-spirited, while the thematically and narratively straightforward earlier episodes are both generally ignored and come from the man's deep depression. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Kaworu is the last Angel, but he's also Adam, the progenitor of the other Angels. That moment in Terminal Dogma is his last chance to either realize the goal that every Angel strove for (which would have included the extinction of mankind) or to abandon their cause out of love for humanity. Maybe "redeeming" is too strong a word, but I think it's reasonable to say that Kaworu is acting for all Angel-kind when he lets himself die. Only in Rebuild is he the true Alpha and Omega. In the series and the manga he is of Adam but he is not completely Adam. The important part of Adam is the embryo in Gendo's wanking hand. When he says he and Ayanami are the same, he means it on a couple of levels: both tools for shady powers, both tangibly alien and both children of Adam and Lilith. I would also argue that Kaworu is acting for himself and his love for Shinji when he lets himself die, given free will is his shtick. Even if you see his act as a redemptive one, it gets pissed all over not long afterward. Remember: humanity is the Eighteenth Angel and they undo all that hard work. quote:I agree with all of this and don't think it contradicts what I'm saying, except for the last sentence. Shinji is forcibly led to the cross: the moment of Instrumentality is the moment at which his personal agency has reached its nadir. A friend of mine likes to describe EoE as "Shinji watching Lovecraftian entities fornicating while disguised as his best friends," and while I take a slightly less bleak view of the film than he does, I don't remember anything that suggests he was like "okay let's do this apocalypse" until he tells Lilith/Rei to make everyone die. The scenes directly after he gets melty hugs from Giant Naked Kaworu show him disgusted by the sexuality of his caretaker, willing to angrily destroy what he worked so hard to create, yelling at the Woman as Other because she isn't clear and won't put out, get rejected by every woman in the world and go completely bugfuck only to get rejected again by his primary fetish of stability. And then choke the poo poo out of her to trigger the "gently caress it, everyone dies" movement. He doesn't actively want everyone to die yet because outside of the moments where he jacks off to Asuka, then wants to save Asuka, he doesn't do anything. He's near catatonic, then wracked with grief. And then he starts screaming. Your friend's on the money: just replace "his best friends" with "the clone of his mom he's kind of hot for".
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Aug 7, 2013 05:38
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MadRhetoric posted:I would also argue that Kaworu is acting for himself and his love for Shinji when he lets himself die, given free will is his shtick. Even if you see his act as a redemptive one, it gets pissed all over not long afterward. Remember: humanity is the Eighteenth Angel and they undo all that hard work. Except humanity doesn't (fully) go through with their suicide/apotheosis. Shinji recognizes the wrongness of it and returns to mortality as a human being. If you felt fancy, you might even interpret his freedom to make that choice as a gift from Kaworu (although it's literally presented as one from Rei and Yui, they're all inseparable parts of the process.) EDIT: And in Rebuild Kaworu gifts him the freedom to choose again, with immediately disastrous results -- but possibly, hopefully setting the stage for him to recover and become his own man in 4.44. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Aug 7, 2013 |
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Aug 7, 2013 05:45
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MadRhetoric posted:It is fascinating and profound in its hosed-uppedness. Art through adversity, as it were. Note that the episodes where Anno has it together mentally are the most dark and mean-spirited, while the thematically and narratively straightforward earlier episodes are both generally ignored and come from the man's deep depression. Wait you mean it's not the other way around? Some of the earlier episodes were completely generic and rightfully ignored by the rebuilds, like the nuclear robot one, or the synchronised dancing one, or the volcano one defeated by a random bit of science trivia chekoved out earlier. I mean they're not unentertaining, but they're unnecessary. You mean Anno actually got saner as Shinji and the series started to break down?
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Aug 7, 2013 06:00
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The early Evangelion episodes are much better (and more important) than anyone gives them credit for.
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Aug 7, 2013 06:02
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Phobophilia posted:Wait you mean it's not the other way around? Some of the earlier episodes were completely generic and rightfully ignored by the rebuilds, like the nuclear robot one, or the synchronised dancing one, or the volcano one defeated by a random bit of science trivia chekoved out earlier. I mean they're not unentertaining, but they're unnecessary. You mean Anno actually got saner as Shinji and the series started to break down? You eat poo poo, Dance like you wanna win is the best episode and Im still mad they cut it from the rebuilds.
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Aug 7, 2013 06:03
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Dred Cosmonaut posted:You eat poo poo, Dance like you wanna win is the best episode and Im still mad they cut it from the rebuilds. Don't give up just yet, with any luck the Mari/Asuka Unit-7/8/whatever will be exactly that.  EDIT: The best episode of the series is the one where Ritsuko saves everyone by learning to understand and communicate with her mother (in the form of the Magi) even though she's been dead for years and is presently trying to kill her. It's like the anti-Evangelion. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Aug 7, 2013 |
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Aug 7, 2013 06:04
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Well the early episodes are classic hero's journey, Shinji goes through alot of pain and seems to grow through it. It's almost endearing how domestic and how much he's enjoying living with Misato (and Asuka). But then where you normally him bouncing back from adversity after losing nearly everything, he completely fails that and he falls apart. Well actually he does recover in the TV ending, but they never managed to animate that properly, and when Anno got a budget he decided to ride the nihilistic glee train off the cliff. Dance was hilarious and would have made Asuka less of a drag but there was seriously no good place to fit it in 2.0. It would've killed the pacing. At least they could fit the positron laser into 2.0.
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Aug 7, 2013 06:11
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The early Evangelion episodes are much better (and more important) than anyone gives them credit for.
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Aug 7, 2013 06:13
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Phobophilia posted:Wait you mean it's not the other way around? Some of the earlier episodes were completely generic and rightfully ignored by the rebuilds, like the nuclear robot one, or the synchronised dancing one, or the volcano one defeated by a random bit of science trivia chekoved out earlier. I mean they're not unentertaining, but they're unnecessary. You mean Anno actually got saner as Shinji and the series started to break down?
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Aug 7, 2013 06:33
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Is there any explanation for the relaxation of the rules about who can pilot Evas in Rebuild? In the TV series everyone could pilot one Eva and that was that (except maybe Rei). Kaworu couldn't even pilot anything according the classified info (he could just control Evas remotely). But in Rebuild pretty much everyone except Asuka has piloted more than one; Mari is the worst offender, but Shinji, Rei, and Kaworu are guilty as well.
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Aug 7, 2013 07:33
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Spectral posted:Is there any explanation for the relaxation of the rules about who can pilot Evas in Rebuild? In the TV series everyone could pilot one Eva and that was that (except maybe Rei). Kaworu couldn't even pilot anything according the classified info (he could just control Evas remotely). But in Rebuild pretty much everyone except Asuka has piloted more than one; Mari is the worst offender, but Shinji, Rei, and Kaworu are guilty as well. Because Rebuild is more concerned with sin than Oedipus.
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Aug 7, 2013 07:36
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The early episodes are fine, it's the early-middle ones (Jet Alone through Sahaquiel) that drag and have questionable Angel design. Matariel was basically an Angel that only stood a chance if the Evas couldn't deploy for a few hours for reasons. Apparently Chrome's spellchecker recognizes Sahaquiel as a word. 
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Aug 7, 2013 08:43
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The early Evangelion episodes are much better (and more important) than anyone gives them credit for. Looking back at them, I think the original series should be essential watching for new viewers, even before the rebuilds. The rebuilds are brilliant, they tie up some loose ends and developed characters in a way that the original series didn't or couldn't. But they lack the progression and the plot development style the OS had. From start to finish the OS had its own way of letting you relate to the characters and explained character traits or plot points which the rebuilds have only glossed over (or left out entirely). Its hard to totally describe, but the tone is definitely different in OS when compared to the rebuilds. Couple this with End of Evangelion and episodes 25-26 (which I call the shows spiritual ending rather than the actual one) the OS is perfect so much so I used to think that the rebuilds were not necessary (the ground hog day theory has changed my mind totally though). Foul Ole Ron fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Aug 7, 2013 |
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Aug 7, 2013 10:55
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Spectral posted:Is there any explanation for the relaxation of the rules about who can pilot Evas in Rebuild? In the TV series everyone could pilot one Eva and that was that (except maybe Rei). Kaworu couldn't even pilot anything according the classified info (he could just control Evas remotely). But in Rebuild pretty much everyone except Asuka has piloted more than one; Mari is the worst offender, but Shinji, Rei, and Kaworu are guilty as well. The cores of the Eva had the souls of their dead moms effectively keying who could and who couldn't pilot them, though Rei and Unit 0 is a special case and mystery, in the series. So far the only soul mentioned being in an Eva in Rebuild is Yui with no indication one way or the other for the other Eva so far.
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Aug 7, 2013 11:15
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Terminal Entropy posted:So far the only soul mentioned being in an Eva in Rebuild is Yui with no indication one way or the other for the other Eva so far. And she may not even be in it any more by 3.33, given the 0.000% sync ratio thing.
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Aug 7, 2013 11:20
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Terminal Entropy posted:So far the only soul mentioned being in an Eva in Rebuild is Yui with no indication one way or the other for the other Eva so far. Well I think there's been a bit of an indication. The hints that are dropped about Asuka's mom not having gone through the same mental break in Rebuild makes it unlikely that Unit 2 has the same deal as in the T.V. series.
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Aug 7, 2013 11:25
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Arujei posted:Man, Dance Like You Want to Win is a great episode, how can you call a fight ending in an Inazuma kick unnecessary? It's not bad, I mean I like it, certainly more of the other stuff, but whenever I watch it it always feels about 5-10 minutes longer than it needs to be.
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Aug 7, 2013 11:38
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I'm also a huge fan of the blackout episode.
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Aug 7, 2013 11:59
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Terminal Entropy posted:The cores of the Eva had the souls of their dead moms effectively keying who could and who couldn't pilot them, though Rei and Unit 0 is a special case and mystery, in the series. So the popular theory is that the Eva control system has been decoupled from human souls, with the exception of Unit 1? I guess that makes sense. I forgot that Asuka was also expected to pilot Unit 3, making her just as bad as everyone else.
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Aug 7, 2013 12:04
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Spectral posted:So the popular theory is that the Eva control system has been decoupled from human souls, with the exception of Unit 1? I guess that makes sense. I forgot that Asuka was also expected to pilot Unit 3, making her just as bad as everyone else. So far with Rebuild souls don't matter with Evas at all, it just so happens that Yui went with the contact experiment as in the series but to what end or reason hasn't been brought up yet. She wasn't really expected, she volunteered to do so; seems like if she hadn't, Rei would have been ordered to pilot it since her Eva was the only one having problems.
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Aug 7, 2013 12:15
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Nate RFB posted:I'm also a huge fan of the blackout episode. It's such a jarring episode because it's a Ghibli episode both in artstyle and tone.
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Aug 7, 2013 12:33
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Paracelsus posted:Matariel was basically an Angel that only stood a chance if the Evas couldn't deploy for a few hours for reasons. I've been re-watching the series, and the day before I re-watched this episode, I was talking to my friends about why they would ever bother giving Evas guns.
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Aug 7, 2013 23:36
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Paracelsus posted:The early episodes are fine, it's the early-middle ones (Jet Alone through Sahaquiel) that drag and have questionable Angel design. Matariel was basically an Angel that only stood a chance if the Evas couldn't deploy for a few hours for reasons. The early-middle ones introduce Asuka as a character, show Shinji's competence and has the single most fun part of the series. Dance Like You Want To Win is the show's entire Shinji/Asuka dynamic in microcosm. also it has an inazuma kick
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Aug 8, 2013 01:47
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DOUBLE Inazuma Kick. 
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Aug 8, 2013 01:55
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Dance is the best episode but my favorite scene of "fun" eva is when Asuka is first introduced. Touli don't take no poo poo.
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Aug 8, 2013 01:58
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Dred Cosmonaut posted:Dance is the best episode but my favorite scene of "fun" eva is when Asuka is first introduced. Touli don't take no poo poo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPyQ6dHsG3I
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Aug 8, 2013 02:21
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By the way, what is the current speculated release date for the final rebuild film?
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Aug 8, 2013 09:39
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Foul Ole Ron posted:By the way, what is the current speculated release date for the final rebuild film? There was a two-year gap between the first two films, and three years plus change between the second and the third. In theory there was more overlap in the production of the third and fourth films, but at the very least, it's not coming out this year: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2012-11-19/final-evangelion-film-no-longer-listed-in-2013
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Aug 8, 2013 10:06
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jvempire posted:Best "fun" Eva has to be the english dub Alternate reality. Baloney Poney is one of the greatest phrases in the english language
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Aug 8, 2013 20:53
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I just looked back at the OP, and man, after Rebuild 3.33, calling it a "stripped-down, less confusing version of the story" is hilarious.
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Aug 8, 2013 23:36
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Well it is stripped down and less confusing, but also entirely different now.
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Aug 9, 2013 00:04
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It's a different sort of confusing this time around.
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Aug 9, 2013 02:52
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cafel posted:Well I think there's been a bit of an indication. Probably because they just haven't had the time to fit that into the movies. But at this point chances are it has been cut altogether.
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Aug 9, 2013 08:24
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Yureina posted:Probably because they just haven't had the time to fit that into the movies. But at this point chances are it has been cut altogether. Except they explicitly show Asuka still has the doll her mother 'replaced' her with in the T.V. series. She probably wouldn't have held on to that if her mother also went through that. Also Asuka in Rebuild is much more stable then in the T.V. series, again suggesting she doesn't have any of the trauma associated with her mother's break down. cafel fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Aug 9, 2013 |
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Aug 9, 2013 09:19
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cafel posted:Accept they explicitly show Asuka still has the doll her mother 'replaced' her with in the T.V. series. She probably wouldn't have held on to that if her mother also went through that. Also Asuka in Rebuild is much more stable then in the T.V. series, again suggesting she doesn't have any of the trauma associated with her mother's break down. I'm going to have to re-watch the rebuilds to look for that. Perhaps some surprises will be awaiting us in the last rebuild movie about this.  One among many.
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Aug 9, 2013 10:15
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