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I think there's a trope named after him or something.
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Aug 16, 2013 21:25
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SHISHKABOB posted:I think there's a trope named after him or something. Yup, the "Xanatos Gambit", aka "the villain/antagonist ultimately wins no matter what you do, because he had it all planned out far in advance".
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Aug 16, 2013 21:29
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RebBrownies posted:I googled Xanatos and I don't know if you are referring to Star Wars or Gargoyles. This: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit
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Aug 16, 2013 21:42
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How does he know though!? I love the series to bits but I want to rip my teeth out when it comes to the Gendo/Scenario bits. Sometimes when there are deviations they are like "it's cool bro, even though that happened we can still achieve our goal," and I get that. There are many ways to achieve an end goal. But how does he predict stuff like Misato's actions, or what a depressed person will do when pushed, or what Kaworu will do? I don't see how there can be room for deviation in plans, but incredibly specific and detailed memos regarding key players and how they will respond to all deviations. The Dead Sea Scrolls can't be that long...right?
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Aug 16, 2013 22:00
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For all we know, the drat thing's 2000 pages of fine print.
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Aug 16, 2013 22:04
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RebBrownies posted:How does he know though!? I love the series to bits but I want to rip my teeth out when it comes to the Gendo/Scenario bits. Sometimes when there are deviations they are like "it's cool bro, even though that happened we can still achieve our goal," and I get that. There are many ways to achieve an end goal. Taking the information from the games into cannon, the Dead Sea scrolls were created by an ancient race of aliens that were seeding planets with Liliths and Adams, so the scrolls might as well be considered crystal balls. With Eva, it really helps to forget about the details and enjoy the ride.
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Aug 16, 2013 22:09
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Terminal Entropy posted:Taking the information from the games into cannon, the Dead Sea scrolls were created by an ancient race of aliens that were seeding planets with Liliths and Adams, so the scrolls might as well be considered crystal balls. Oh ok that actually does help. I thought I was supposed to be thinking that these were an alternate version of the actual dead sea scrolls. I just didn't see how a bunch of old dudes had enough pen and paper to account for all the possibilities that Japanese 14 year olds could get into in the 21st century. Thinking about them as a crystal ball that adjusts trajectory to meet the current circumstance actually helps. Thank you!
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Aug 16, 2013 22:15
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There's really no reason to think that the dead sea scrolls would have anything related to specific people and what they do. Gendo's just super smart and knows how to work people is all. I mean, if you consider Misato, her dad was working at the South Pole when Second Impact went down. Gendo was one of the people at the South Pole for a while, but he got the hell out of dodge before poo poo went to town because he knew what was going to happen. So, it's not too big of a jump to say that he probably knew Misato's dad, and probably knew Misato as well (since she was at the South Pole too when it happened). That means he's known her for 15 years, and maybe even more before that. He's a creepy guy who knows how to work people, if he's known you for a hella long time he probably figures out exactly what you're gonna do. I forget what stuff he predicts in relation to Misato though. He probably knew she was going to try to figure out more details about the Evangelions and Second Impact (she does eventually figure out exactly what happened at Second Impact, but of course we don't  ). He also knew that she knew Kaji, and he's very well informed of what kind of person Kaji is I'm sure. And he probably knew all about her desire to destroy the Angels for revenge or whatever.
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Aug 16, 2013 22:22
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PBS Ideachannel ran a video on NGE in case anyone was interested . It is only 4 minutes, and discusses the impact of what the creator's comments have on their finished work. e: I know this is late but jvempire I think you articulated why I liked Asuka a bit more in the Rebuilds, it is definitely the sense of potential redemption. That being said I really liked getting Rei III's character fleshed out in 3.0. I was never a huge fan of her character/s but I'm warming up to her with this additional glimpse at her character that this film provided us with. RebBrownies fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Aug 17, 2013 |
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Aug 17, 2013 00:23
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RebBrownies posted:PBS Ideachannel ran a video on NGE in case anyone was interested . It is only 4 minutes, and discusses the impact of what the creator's comments have on their finished work. I've always thought the individual interpretation as what really mattered, same as they concluded. However, I did not consider the author him/herself as an individual interpreter. The idea that the author hi/herself might not have the slightest understanding of his/her own creation is a fascinating idea. As far as Eva goes, it means we can call him a moron and he can call us morons and at the end of the day we've accomplished nothing.
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Aug 17, 2013 00:51
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It's like Guillermo Del Toro (I assume) not really taking into account people might consider Pacific Rim a pro-fascism movie(crazy analytical people).
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Aug 17, 2013 00:56
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ViggyNash posted:The idea that the author hi/herself might not have the slightest understanding of his/her own creation is a fascinating idea. It really goes back to the idea that we often simply do not understand our own ideological leanings, in that we've been subtly imbedded with certain ideological assumptions that show up unconsciously in our work. Older superhero stories, for example, often have these bizarre circumstances wherein the heroes can perform magic, or they have superscientific prowess, etc., and they use these incredible powers to loving fight crime. It's simply a reflection of the dominant ideological mindset of the time (where crime was the problem, rather than merely being symptomatic of larger social issues), and one doubts most comic writers really put a great deal of thought into the implications behind what they were writing. In the case of Eva, it doesn't really matter whether Hideaki Anno really thought the whole weird Christian symbolism thing through. What matters is if one can make a concrete reading based off of that symbolism that incorporates it into the existential journey of Shinji (and I certainly think it's possible to do so). Vermain fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Aug 17, 2013 |
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Aug 17, 2013 01:02
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In either the series or Rebuild, what is the reason that Kaworu has for going into Terminal Dogma? Seele's intent was for him to make contact with Lillith in order to cause third impact. He believes Adam is in Terminal Dogma, though. What would he accomplish by going down to see his...brother? He's so gung-ho about it in Rebuild.
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Aug 18, 2013 07:20
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Raere posted:In either the series or Rebuild, what is the reason that Kaworu has for going into Terminal Dogma? Seele's intent was for him to make contact with Lillith in order to cause third impact. He believes Adam is in Terminal Dogma, though. What would he accomplish by going down to see his...brother? He's so gung-ho about it in Rebuild. In the series at least, Kaworu is the human vessel of the soul of Adam and was told by Seele (in the directors cut of 24) that they were okay with the Angels winning and that Adam's body was in Terminal Dogma. In a similar situation to EoE where Rei (the human vessel for the soul of Lilith) rejoined with Lilith, it would cause a Third Impact that would wipe out all Lilin and create an Angel ecosystem (like Antartica after Second Impact) and the Angels would take over Earth. Except it wasn't Adam, it's Lilith; Kaworu understands Seele lied and he decides to let Shinji kill him because of the power of love and wanting him to live. It's slightly overcomplicated by a continuity error or two regarding what Kaworu should know but that's pretty much the likely intended gist of it. Rebuild: whatever. Barely remember but they're doing something different anyway.
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Aug 18, 2013 14:15
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I'm still confused by what Rebuild is suppose to be, and I have a feeling a lot of that is fans else where on the internet who are just stupid and explain things as if they were facts; I see a lot of people claim that Rebuild is a sequel and this makes no sense to me. How could it be a sequel if it begins exactly where the series starts, and then deviates from there? What is the official explanation on Rebuild? To me it feels like it's suppose to be exactly what the name implies. A retelling of Shinji's story that is not at all related to the series.
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Aug 18, 2013 14:29
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I said come in! posted:I'm still confused by what Rebuild is suppose to be, and I have a feeling a lot of that is fans else where on the internet who are just stupid and explain things as if they were facts; I see a lot of people claim that Rebuild is a sequel and this makes no sense to me. How could it be a sequel if it begins exactly where the series starts, and then deviates from there? What is the official explanation on Rebuild? That's the "time loop" theory - the theory is that it's not an alternate reality so much as a future reality, because at the end of 1.11 Kaworu says something about "Oh, it's the third again! This time I'll make you truly happy."
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Aug 18, 2013 14:38
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It's a sequel even if it isn't a time loop because everyone has progressed emotionally from who they were in the TV series -- just like the Utena movie. 
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Aug 18, 2013 15:16
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I said come in! posted:To me it feels like it's suppose to be exactly what the name implies. A retelling of Shinji's story that is not at all related to the series. Well it's weird because I think originally Anno said something about it being a more digestible retelling of the story for a new audience, and obviously since 1.0 it's become much more than that. You really need to have seen the original series before you watch rebuild because there are so many similar scenes with differences that you're supposed to pick up on and obviously if you havn't seen the series you can't do that. I don't think Gendo is going to literally show up in 4.0 and explain they're doing Groundhog Day Evangelion style, but there's enough evidence to say that there is a connection between the series and rebuild, even if it's just metatextual commentary on the original series, scenes that say even if it's treading over old ground there is meaning in the differences and it's taking the story forward, not just retelling it. The red ocean, the blood splatter on the moon, the chalk outline of the Eva series, even if it's not actually addressed in the movies they're deliberate callbacks to End of Evangelion and saying "Hey, we've been there and done that, lets go somewhere new now". So really it might as well be a sequel at this point. Zahki fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Aug 18, 2013 |
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Aug 18, 2013 15:31
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Szmitten posted:In the series at least, Kaworu is the human vessel of the soul of Adam and was told by Seele (in the directors cut of 24) that they were okay with the Angels winning and that Adam's body was in Terminal Dogma. In a similar situation to EoE where Rei (the human vessel for the soul of Lilith) rejoined with Lilith, it would cause a Third Impact that would wipe out all Lilin and create an Angel ecosystem (like Antartica after Second Impact) and the Angels would take over Earth. Except it wasn't Adam, it's Lilith; Kaworu understands Seele lied and he decides to let Shinji kill him because of the power of love and wanting him to live. It's slightly overcomplicated by a continuity error or two regarding what Kaworu should know but that's pretty much the likely intended gist of it. I am really confused by this as well, and I think this whole bit is the reason why I have never completely loved Kaworu as a character in the TV show, when I set out planning to enjoy him the most. I went on Evageeks (was this a mistake  ?) , and they were weighing Kaworu's motives out. Spoilers ahoy  As you said there is a scene in the extended episode where Kaworu is informed by Seele that Gendo has Adam's body inside him. So why would he think that he was going to see Adam in Dogma? They suggested: 1. Continuity error, since the audience has been under the impression that the being in Dogma is Adam, and a major revelation this episode is that it is Lilith. 2. Kaworu thought Seele meant that Gendo only had part of Adam  3. (This is the one that confuses me thoroughly) "Thus it is a very real possibility that Kaworu did, in fact know all along that he was seeing Lilith, and was playacting at being surprised because he wanted to tell Rei "this is Lilith". This has been dubbed the "Casablanca Theory" because Kaworu is apparently expressing false surprise." So if theory 3 is true, he knew that he was going to Dogma to see Lilith, but then has a change of heart about starting Third Impact? Was his intention just to show Rei that this is Lilith? Why would Seele want Kaworu to stop if they sent him there to initiate Third Impact? Then there is the theory that this was all a big staged play to make Shinji suicidal and more receptive to starting Third Impact  Can someone help please 
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Aug 18, 2013 16:23
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I'm thinking just a continuity error, since that contradiction only appeared in the Director's Cut of the episode, hence why it was cut: it made no drat sense for Kaworu to know Gendo had Adam in him, then head down into Terminal Dogma instead of taking Eva-02 and tearing apart what's left of NERV HQ to find Gendo.
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Aug 18, 2013 16:57
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It'd be hilarious if Kaworu in the series could trigger Third Impact by meeting his new boss at NERV and giving him a firm handshake.
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Aug 18, 2013 17:07
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But see, that's what the gloves are for! They're actually made with an anti-Third Impact material.
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Aug 18, 2013 17:12
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RebBrownies posted:Can someone help please EvaGeeks is fine for information but take theory and analysis pages with caution. I refamiliarised myself with the Theory page I'm guessing you looked at and I would suggest ignoring most of that. It's just an error because... Regalingualius posted:I'm thinking just a continuity error, since that contradiction only appeared in the Director's Cut of the episode, hence why it was cut: it made no drat sense for Kaworu to know Gendo had Adam in him, then head down into Terminal Dogma instead of taking Eva-02 and tearing apart what's left of NERV HQ to find Gendo. The directors cuts aren't cut (as in removed) material, it's all new and inserted retroactively to make certain things make more sense, in this case, Seele's link to Kaworu and their intentions. In the process of adding the shot of Adam in Gendo's hand and the monolith scene they completely forgot that the two are contradictory. That or, as I'm starting to suspect, the translation MIGHT (probably not) be bogus and "within Gendo" should be interpreted as "with Gendo" (or "in the possession of Gendo").
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Aug 18, 2013 17:55
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I was under the impression that Third Impact could only be triggered if Adam and Lillith made contact. It's also possible for Third Impact to be triggered if Adam makes contact with Adam (Kaworu shaking hands with Gendo) or Lillith with Lillith (Rei and Lillith)?
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Aug 18, 2013 17:59
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It's the particular type of Third Impact that depends on which Angel touches which. Through rather... Convolted ways, the one we saw in EoE involved Adam (fetus) and Lilith (Rei serving as a container for her soul) making contact with Lilith. And I just realized I indirectly said Lilith touches herself.
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Aug 18, 2013 18:04
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Raere posted:I was under the impression that Third Impact could only be triggered if Adam and Lillith made contact. It's also possible for Third Impact to be triggered if Adam makes contact with Adam (Kaworu shaking hands with Gendo) or Lillith with Lillith (Rei and Lillith)? The Angels' wish is to trigger an Impact that involves them returning to Adam, but that destroys humanity. The Instrumentality project wants a Third Impact that uses Lilith instead. That's why they tricked Kaworu into thinking that Adam was in Terminal Dogma when it was really Lilith, and why it's hilarious that (3.0 spoilers) Kaworu was tricked twice by Gendo Ikari and fell for a slight variation of the same trap he did in the original series in 3.0 despite apparently already knowing what happened the first time around. My personal theory is that Rebuild Kaworu has the box DVD set of the Evangelion TV show...it'd explain why he was aware of so much going in. Even so, he still fell for the same trick of "what's in Terminal Dogma was not what he was expecting." Rebuild Kaworu failed much harder than the original one did because he should've seen this coming.
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Aug 18, 2013 18:19
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Raere posted:I was under the impression that Third Impact could only be triggered if Adam and Lillith made contact. It's also possible for Third Impact to be triggered if Adam makes contact with Adam (Kaworu shaking hands with Gendo) or Lillith with Lillith (Rei and Lillith)? There are different impacts achieved with different combinations with different outcomes that can be completed or aborted at various stages. Second Impact = unspecified human DNA + Adam's body + Adam's soul Angel Impact resulting in Angel takeover = Kaworu (Adam's soul) + Adam's soulless body Angel Impact resulting in Angel takeover = Angel + Adam's soulless body Angel Impact resulting in Angel takeover = Angel + Lilith's soulless body Gendo's Impact = Gendo + Adam's soulless body + Lilith's soul + Lilith's body (maybe? you'd think not but why else were they there?) + abort it part way through to stay with wife Seele's Impact = someone desirable in control + Adam's body + Lilith's body + Lilith's soul + Adam's soul (somehow) Third Impact = Shinji in control + Adam's body (in Rei) + Liliths body (Rei) + Liliths soul + Adam's soul (somehow) + aborted And Adam and Lilith can supposedly be interchanged with (or interfaced with via) clones i.e regular Eva's for Adam or Eva-01 for Lilith. Also, spears. Except for when it isn't. It's all dumb and arbitrary and not worth thinking about to be honest. Szmitten fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Aug 18, 2013 |
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Aug 18, 2013 18:44
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The Spears are the emergency breaks. It's why it's a key part of Gendo's plan, the Spear allows him to abort the awakening when he wants to. Also why they should've realized the implications of what was going on in 3.0: Removing the spears just had third impact resume where it left off 14 years ago.
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Aug 18, 2013 18:52
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Szmitten posted:There are different impacts achieved with different combinations with different outcomes that can be completed or aborted at various stages. Second Impact has nothing to do with Third Impact. Regalingualius posted:I'm thinking just a continuity error, since that contradiction only appeared in the Director's Cut of the episode, hence why it was cut: it made no drat sense for Kaworu to know Gendo had Adam in him, then head down into Terminal Dogma instead of taking Eva-02 and tearing apart what's left of NERV HQ to find Gendo. But why would they add it back in if they'd cut it because it was nonsense? It's more likely Kaworu just didn't believe what SEELE told him. Or perhaps he looked at Gendo and thought "Hmm, no giant winged figure destroying Antartica in him. Now, how about that secret basement?".
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Aug 18, 2013 20:17
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Szmitten posted:Third Impact = Shinji in control + Adam's body (in Rei) + Liliths body (Rei) + Liliths soul + Adam's soul (somehow) + aborted Third Impact in this instance also creates a God like being, at least when done in EoE. Going by something said in EoE, any kind of Lilith and Adam combination creates a God.
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Aug 18, 2013 20:48
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House Louse posted:Second Impact has nothing to do with Third Impact. Second Impact is still an Impact scenario. The scenes in the directors cuts were neither removed or re-inserted; they were created from scratch for Death and were inserted into the Japanese home release of the series specifically to help make portions of EoE make sense (e.g without the shot of Adam in Gendo's palm you have no idea what he's doing with Rei).
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Aug 18, 2013 21:01
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Szmitten posted:The scenes in the directors cuts were neither removed or re-inserted; they were created from scratch for Death and were inserted into the Japanese home release of the series specifically to help make portions of EoE make sense (e.g without the shot of Adam in Gendo's palm you have no idea what he's doing with Rei). Yes, my mistake (I didn't know they were from the EoE period though) but the point still stands. Szmitten posted:Second Impact is still an Impact scenario. It seems to have more in common with the other contact experiment (Yui's), given that it didn't involve Angels, Lilith, everyone dying, or tang. Gendo grafting Adam onto his hand wasn't an Impact either. The Second/Third Impact names are misleading.
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Aug 18, 2013 21:39
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House Louse posted:It seems to have more in common with the other contact experiment (Yui's), given that it didn't involve Angels, Lilith, everyone dying, or tang. Gendo grafting Adam onto his hand wasn't an Impact either. The Second/Third Impact names are misleading. One could argue that the Second Impact contact experiment could be considered an Impact because of it using a real "deity" and the Yui one not so much because it's just a human soul and a Lilith clone but sure, it's semantics. And this stuff wasn't very well planned in the first place.
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Aug 18, 2013 23:02
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So what you're saying is quasi-mystical union of judeo-christian mythology plus technology results in catastrophe for the human race.
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Aug 18, 2013 23:18
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You can't write a user's manual for the apocalypse.
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Aug 18, 2013 23:20
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:You can't write a user's manual for the apocalypse. Isnt that what the dead seas scrolls are? (In the series of course)
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Aug 18, 2013 23:25
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ViggyNash posted:Isnt that what the dead seas scrolls are? (In the series of course) Unfortunately we never get to see those
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Aug 18, 2013 23:27
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ViggyNash posted:Isnt that what the dead seas scrolls are? (In the series of course) Yeah, and look where they got everyone who tried to use them!
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Aug 18, 2013 23:35
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Yeah, and look where they got everyone who tried to use them! They got pretty close.
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Aug 19, 2013 00:08
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Yeah, and look where they got everyone who tried to use them! Shadow government positions and control, super computers, and giant robots that aren't really robots but what ever. Seems like everything worked good!
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Aug 19, 2013 00:18
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