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Ataxerxes posted:A question to the people who have run Shadowrun: how easy would it be to hack this system for a space opera game, where the focus of the action is in personal or, at most, small unit combat? I have hear good things about the combat system of Shadowrun and I'm considering running a game with the magic, the net and most of the non-human races tossed out. Also, I like priority systems for character creation. Shadowrun does not have a particularly good combat system. If you're tossing out magic, decking, and metahumans then there is literally no reason to use Shadowrun.
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Oct 4, 2013 14:52
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If you want space opera combat that's shadowrun-y why aren't you using Eclipse Phase
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Oct 4, 2013 15:15
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Ataxerxes posted:A question to the people who have run Shadowrun: how easy would it be to hack this system for a space opera game, where the focus of the action is in personal or, at most, small unit combat? I have hear good things about the combat system of Shadowrun and I'm considering running a game with the magic, the net and most of the non-human races tossed out. Also, I like priority systems for character creation.
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Oct 4, 2013 16:00
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Ataxerxes posted:I have hear good things about the combat system of Shadowrun From whom?
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Oct 4, 2013 16:54
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Gobbeldygook posted:If you're going to do this, go with SR4. There is no advantage to SR5 over SR4 if you throw out the matrix & magic subsystems. ...Right, other then melee being substantially better, the three types of guns having actual niches besides "Isn't Automatics," movement working better, dodging working better all around, initiative working better... If all you're doing is using the combat system I legitimately cannot think of one single thing SR4 has in it's favor. Plus he outright listed the priority system as something he liked. So...where on earth is the SR4 recommendation coming from? That said, do not steal the combat system from any Shadowrun game. Use Shadowrun to run Shadowrun. It's pretty bad at anything else.
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Oct 4, 2013 17:37
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Shadowrun is about distinct subsystems all going on. Magic is a subsystem. Decking is a subsystem. Combat is a subystem. Rigging is a subsystem. They all use the same overall mechanic of dice pool successes, but the specific rules each element (and the subsystems inherent to those) create more and more layers of complexity. Look at magic: Magic is comprised of: Spellcasting, each spell and the way it is resolved varies from school to school and spell type to spell type. The test undertaken changes each time. Each spell is essentially a layer of complexity. Conjuring, and the rules for Spirits. Spirits have their own powers, each of which adds a layer of complexity unto the rules for Spirits. Binding is a subset here. Enchanting, and the rules for Enchanting and Alchemy. These have their own rules. The total amount of complexity starts to increase when these rules systems interact with other parts of the rules. These conflicts cannot all be resolved in a germane fashion, because in some places the rules straight up do not work (gibberish), or contradict each other and precedence is not clear. Ultimately Shadowrun suffers from being Shadowrun. Its got 487 pages, and about 400 of those pages are 100% crunch. Tests are great, and limits are an interesting idea, except they seldom matter - often when they would, Edge is used and the limit removed. Basically I can't recommend the system do anything but what it does, which is let you play a magic elfman with a cyberman buddy doing the bidding of a shadowy Corporate Johnsonman.
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Oct 4, 2013 19:42
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Laphroaig posted:Basically I can't recommend the system do anything but what it does, which is let you play a magic elfman with a cyberman buddy doing the bidding of a shadowy Corporate Johnsonman. This. SR is so many moving parts together that it doesn't repurpose well.
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Oct 4, 2013 20:56
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Thanks for the feedback, I'll have to consider other options then. As for why I'm not using Eclipse Phase I have read it and I don't like the d100 percentile system one bit. What I'm looking for is a fairly crunchy system for small firefights and for cybertechnology, I was thinking of Cyberpunk 2020 at first but it's a bit dated and Shadowrun has seen development for years after Cyberpunk.
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Oct 5, 2013 00:58
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Ataxerxes posted:Thanks for the feedback, I'll have to consider other options then. As for why I'm not using Eclipse Phase I have read it and I don't like the d100 percentile system one bit. You should just kill your sacred cow already. The d100 system is beautiful in its elegance, and there are few systems that work smoother at the table. Unless you want something as simple as Apocalypse World or complex as Ars Magicka, d100 is almost always the way to go.
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Oct 5, 2013 01:53
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Ataxerxes posted:Shadowrun has seen development for years after Cyberpunk. This is technically true, but that development hasn't really been all that, uh, stellar.
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Oct 5, 2013 02:13
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So does SR5 have any improvements over SR4 in terms of cyberlimbs? I remember the first time I wanted to play I tried to slap together a street sam with cybered-up arms with gun slides so I could go all Equilibrium and fling guns out of my sleeves and blast everyone. But the way SR4 handled limbs having different stats than the rest of your body seemed confusing, and they seemed to be less efficient than just having higher base stats + muscle augments or something if you wanted high agility to blast people. It felt like cyberlimbs were kind of a trap for combat-heavy characters. Has it improved, stayed the same, or am I wrong in the first place and cyberlimbs are awesome?
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Oct 5, 2013 02:17
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Glagha posted:So does SR5 have any improvements over SR4 in terms of cyberlimbs? I remember the first time I wanted to play I tried to slap together a street sam with cybered-up arms with gun slides so I could go all Equilibrium and fling guns out of my sleeves and blast everyone. But the way SR4 handled limbs having different stats than the rest of your body seemed confusing, and they seemed to be less efficient than just having higher base stats + muscle augments or something if you wanted high agility to blast people. It felt like cyberlimbs were kind of a trap for combat-heavy characters. Has it improved, stayed the same, or am I wrong in the first place and cyberlimbs are awesome? Maybe it's just the Adept enthusiast in me, but if you're going Grammaton Cleric, Gunslinger Adept seems to make more sense, with Ares Firefight and the forearm slide modification for the pistols. Maybe with an addiction to Zen. BUUUUUT There are no rules for Firefight yet, I guess that's supposed to be the first splatbook though. Also, you can pay more when you buy the cyberlimb initially to boost the STR and AGI up to your natural level (or was it natural max? I don't remember). An Alphaware obvious cyberarm boosted to 5STR 7AGI, for example, costs 54k nuyen. Additional aftermarket enhancements can be added to go past that max. These stats only applies to tests involving that cyberarm, like swinging a sword or throwing poo poo or aiming a gun. I guess the point was if you wanted to do a character that was super fast but not strong, you could boost up the STR on your cyberlegs for Running tests, or other similar things? It's a bit confusing, but I like it more than the alternative of a flat bonus to the stat that could be exploited by certain types of players to apply to ALL tests involving that stat, you know? "My cyberlegs give me +5 STR, adding that to my Punching test" type stuff. EDIT: Speaking of which, maybe the answer to this would vary from GM to GM, but say I was rolling a Street Sam that, in her backstory, had a late Awakening that went violently wrong, to the point where she freaked out and had a bunch of 'ware installed to drop her Magic to 0. Would that require taking Magic as a priority other than E, or could it just be a bit of RP fluff? Doc Dee fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Oct 5, 2013 |
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Oct 5, 2013 03:24
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Glagha posted:So does SR5 have any improvements over SR4 in terms of cyberlimbs? I remember the first time I wanted to play I tried to slap together a street sam with cybered-up arms with gun slides so I could go all Equilibrium and fling guns out of my sleeves and blast everyone. But the way SR4 handled limbs having different stats than the rest of your body seemed confusing, and they seemed to be less efficient than just having higher base stats + muscle augments or something if you wanted high agility to blast people. It felt like cyberlimbs were kind of a trap for combat-heavy characters. Has it improved, stayed the same, or am I wrong in the first place and cyberlimbs are awesome? They're a little more expensive, so they're more of an investment if you want to slap an agility 9 cyberarm on a non combat character. They're still pretty rubbish for high stat supermen, but that was never their place... they were a place to put a lot of hidden gear you couldn't drop, so you could have a shotgun, a multitool, a grappling hook, a smuggling compartment, a few electromagnets, and a flask of whiskey.
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Oct 5, 2013 05:18
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First time post so here goes... Has anyone here played both 4th and 5th? Which do you prefer?
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Oct 5, 2013 05:28
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Eeeeeehhhhh... At this point I'd just go for whichever one everyone else at the table is playing. Given a choice, I'd go for whichever one is easier to gear a character for, because trying to do that by hard with an equipment chapter open is a nightmare. In practice that means 4e, because it has more/better character builders available. 5E does have cleaner matrix rules, and a reason to use them, and that's pretty nice.
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Oct 5, 2013 05:44
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Carusio_Rollard posted:First time post so here goes... 4th was a lot cleaner, and of course has a ton of splat books and community odds and ends. 5th has new matrix rules that seem less dense than 4th (at least when they aren't outright contradictory), and a few new ways to railroad the team into remaining vulnerable to matrix attack. If your group has no one interested in playing a decker, and a lot of groups seem to, then I'd stick with 4th.
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Oct 5, 2013 07:40
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Carusio_Rollard posted:First time post so here goes... SR5, every time. It's fixed quite a few problems with SR4 (Matrix rules, magic overpoweredness, cyberjesus 'ware, automatics making all other attacks pointless, utterly useless melee, etc) and I legit can't think of anything SR4 does better. I don't play rigger so maybe that? Not to mention SR5 just started, so you'll be seeing plenty of more stuff to come in various splats.
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Oct 5, 2013 10:11
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I could use some help clarifying how customized, enhanced cyberlimbs work. Say you have a character with a base STR of 5. The rules say you can only have +4 to a stat from augmentations (bio or cyberware), but what happens if you've got two identical cyberarms that each have a +2 to strength? Since they match, do you get a +2 total to your effective STR (effective total 7), or are they combined for a total of +4 to STR (effective total 9)? What if both arms have a +3? Is your stat STR+3 for any task on which you use just one arm, but only STR+4 (instead of STR+6, which would be illegal by two points) on a task in which you use both arms (like hauling open a stuck elevator door)? This questions springs from looking at the murdertroll I made and realizing that a starting character with a base 5 STR probably can't end up with a 13 STR by slapping on some industrial-strength grippyclaws without having his spine melt from shear forces.
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Oct 5, 2013 18:43
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Bularin posted:4th was a lot cleaner After it was reprinted as the anniversary edition, sure, but 4E at launch was just as poorly edited as 5E. I prefer 5E because it recaptures some of the feel that I feel 4E lost in trying to make the world more plausibly futuristic.
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Oct 5, 2013 21:49
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ProfessorCirno posted:SR5, every time. It's fixed quite a few problems with SR4 (Matrix rules, magic overpoweredness, cyberjesus 'ware, automatics making all other attacks pointless, utterly useless melee, etc) and I legit can't think of anything SR4 does better. I don't play rigger so maybe that? Not to mention SR5 just started, so you'll be seeing plenty of more stuff to come in various splats. That's true, a lot of what I don't like about 5e is going to get cleaned up as options appear in splatbooks.
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Oct 5, 2013 22:35
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Diaghilev posted:I could use some help clarifying how customized, enhanced cyberlimbs work. I think you'd just get the +3 for using both arms, since it does say if you're using multiple limbs to perform a task to use the average of all the limbs involved, or the one with the lowest stat if you need careful coordination of multiple limbs. Highest you could probably go is 9 to start, with 5 STR (that's the base for trolls, where are you putting all your points?). Standard obvious customized limbs would be 45k each, 10 availability. With 10 STR you could go to 13, with each limb costing 69.5k including Rating 3 Strength Enhancement, 11 availability (9R on enhancement). EDIT: clarification on the multiple limbs rule Doc Dee fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Oct 6, 2013 |
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Oct 5, 2013 22:54
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Doc Dee posted:(that's the base for trolls, where are you putting all your points?) He'd stop showing up to work, get augged out the rear end, and rename himself REX EVERYMAN. Highlights include chainsaw arms1, exploding knees2, a helmet wreathed in blue fire3, and, incidentally, a physical damage resistance dice pool over 40. 1: Refluffed spurs 2: Cyber machine pistols loaded with flechette rounds and a fan-spread laser sight in each knee. 3: AR fire. Diaghilev fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Oct 6, 2013 |
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Oct 6, 2013 01:53
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Carusio_Rollard posted:First time post so here goes... I'm running one 4e game and one 5e game, both systems run pretty well with some GM wrangling, but I prefer 5e for a few reasons: -Adepts are decent now -more balanced melee (instead of it being near-useless in 4e) -more balance between the gun categories (instead of automatics being king) -more room for character growth -simpler movement rules -I greatly prefer the matrix rules (with the exception of trying to find a 'running silent' device which is utterly awful) -electrical damage has been balanced a bit (stick'n'shock is no longer the undisputed god of ammo) -dragons are a bit scarier now 4e has a couple small things I like: -spirits aren't quite as unkillable as they are in 5e (due to changes in hardened armour) -the armour limit being based on body leads to more varied armour options instead of 5e's "All Jackets, all the time. For everyone. With Lined Coats on top." -recoil rules that are actually comprehensible -as of 20th Anniversary edition: editing isn't as horrible as 5e, and fewer rule inconsistencies Both are doable, but I like the balance of 5 a bit more. I initially didn't like 5e's priority character generation because I thought it was too restrictive, but having made a few test characters and had a look at the ones submitted I really like how it works out in practice and prefer it to point buy now.
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Oct 6, 2013 08:58
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Diaghilev posted:What would happen if a racially-downtrodden, Urban-Brawl-obsessed Troll working in middle management for MCT was denied a promotion for the fifth time and won half a million nuyen in the lottery on the same day? I am intrigued and would like to subscribe to Rex Everyman's newsletter.
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Oct 7, 2013 05:14
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MilkmanLuke posted:I am intrigued and would like to subscribe to Rex Everyman's newsletter. Feel free to use him as an NPC or player character or whatever. I've been keeping the character sheet up to date with party karma, but the only thing past what he came out of chargen with is 18 karma spent on three ranks of "Will To Live". He was firmly in the realm of GM beatstick/liquid preposterone when he still had (an incorrect) 13 STR, but now he's much more on the level. I'm currently playing a pretty straightforward young prodigy mage, but if he bites it, gets too injured to continue, or just flat out retires, REX EVERYMAN is on deck. I wish I could make that name look like it was on fire. Blue fire.
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Oct 7, 2013 08:33
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Diaghilev posted:Feel free to use him as an NPC or player character or whatever. I've been keeping the character sheet up to date with party karma, but the only thing past what he came out of chargen with is 18 karma spent on three ranks of "Will To Live". He was firmly in the realm of GM beatstick/liquid preposterone when he still had (an incorrect) 13 STR, but now he's much more on the level. I'm currently playing a pretty straightforward young prodigy mage, but if he bites it, gets too injured to continue, or just flat out retires, REX EVERYMAN is on deck. REXEVERYMAN
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Oct 7, 2013 14:35
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Wow, so, University libraries are kinda cool, but I have self control issues and it turns out the books for Warlord China were next to the books I needed for a research paper. I guess this counts as progress for for the Shadowrun China game? The book on arms dealing in Warlord China was lost, unfortunately. At this rate the Sixth World Edition will be out before I run a game. Low Dealings in the Middle Kingdom?
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Oct 8, 2013 00:00
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Diaghilev posted:Feel free to use him as an NPC or player character or whatever. I've been keeping the character sheet up to date with party karma, but the only thing past what he came out of chargen with is 18 karma spent on three ranks of "Will To Live". He was firmly in the realm of GM beatstick/liquid preposterone when he still had (an incorrect) 13 STR, but now he's much more on the level. I'm currently playing a pretty straightforward young prodigy mage, but if he bites it, gets too injured to continue, or just flat out retires, REX EVERYMAN is on deck. I think the Cyberlimb base strength is off a little. They start at base 3, no matter what your attributes are, and then you can buy them up to racial maximum. So right now they are: Customized +2 STR, +1 AGI), Enhanced (AGI Rating 2, Armor Rating 3, STR Rating 2); Cap 10/15 filled (Implanted spurs [3], enhancements [7]) or: 7 STR (3 base for cyberlimb + 2 customization, +2 Enhancement (up to the cap of +4 from whatever for Enhancements, in case someone casts a spell on you or you take some kind of drug that would give +3 strength) and 6 AGI (3 base for cyberlimb + 1 customization + 2 enhancement). To get to STR 9 you'll need to customize for 2 more, so each limb is gonna cost you 12000 nuyen more (Alphaware, 1.2 x 2 x 5,000).
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Oct 8, 2013 15:26
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Laphroaig posted:I think the Cyberlimb base strength is off a little. They start at base 3, no matter what your attributes are, and then you can buy them up to racial maximum. So right now they are: This is still kind of unclear to me. I've been thinking of it in the following way, and it seems like either case is justifiable: Case 1: Someone with a normal arm has a strength of X. Someone with a single enhanced cyberarm has a strength of X+Y. If having one enhanced cyberarm makes you stronger, then having two cyberarms would give you a strength of X+Y+Z. (This is the interpretation I have gone with in R.E.'s character sheet.) Case 2: All characters have a strength of X. Once any augmentations are made, the character's strength is no longer a single unified number, and every action must be considered in terms of which limbs it involves and the individual attribute scores of those involved limbs. Laphroaig, even though you can customize a cyberlimb to an arbitrary base attribute, I don't think it's possible to enhance an individual limb's STR higher than +3, since Rating 3 Strength is the maximum value listed in the book. This leaves us with a conundrum: Can a prodigal Street Sam purchase two arms, each at +3 STR and wonder how he's going to get that last +1 to STR from some other, non-cyberwear source (perhaps vat-grown muscle bioware that implies it covers the whole body)? Or does he lay out the nuyen for two +2 STR arms which total his STR up to X + (2 + 2), capping out the aug bonus and leaving lots of room left over for laser-guided party poppers and hidden harmonica sheathes? I hope I've just missed a rule somewhere in this maze of a book. While it's frustrating to try to guess tabletop game designer authorial intent, I also hope that their big idea wasn't that an augmented player character would need to maintain a working knowledge of 6 different iterations of any given attribute.
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Oct 8, 2013 17:14
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Diaghilev posted:This is still kind of unclear to me. I've been thinking of it in the following way, and it seems like either case is justifiable: It's Case 2. You have to average limbs for doing everything. You never add together multiple limbs or base strength. Cyberlimb bonuses and other bonuses are completely separate. If you have a character with a Cyberam with Strength 7 and he has strength 4 otherwise, and he buys Muscle Toner 2, he still has a Strength 7 cyberarm.
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Oct 8, 2013 17:28
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Piell posted:It's Case 2. You have to average limbs for doing everything. You never add together multiple limbs or base strength. Cyberlimb bonuses and other bonuses are completely separate. If you have a character with a Cyberam with Strength 7 and he has strength 4 otherwise, and he buys Muscle Toner 2, he still has a Strength 7 cyberarm. I'm entirely willing to believe this, but is there a passage in the book that clarifies this interpretation either implicitly or explicitly?
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Oct 8, 2013 17:42
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Diaghilev posted:I'm entirely willing to believe this, but is there a passage in the book that clarifies this interpretation either implicitly or explicitly? What I could find: SR Page 455-456 posted:Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings. When a particular limb is used for a test (such as Also it's the same way it worked in SR4, and since nothing in the SR5 book contradicts it and it makes sense I'd go with it.
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Oct 8, 2013 17:46
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Do you guys think that a cybergun shotgun (as a cyberarm implant) could work as a 1-handed weapon, possibly alongside a riot shield? The description in the book says it's Single Shot. Does this mean I need to pump my own arm? Also, as far as cyberarm attributes go, are we all in agreement that +Agi on the same cyberarm as a cybergun can always count for attacks with that gun?
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Oct 9, 2013 02:59
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H posted:Do you guys think that a cybergun shotgun (as a cyberarm implant) could work as a 1-handed weapon, possibly alongside a riot shield? I'm sure you could work the pump (  ) as fluff, but it really only means that you're only capable of shooting it once per pass. I would assume enhanced Agility on your cybergun arm is definitely going to count toward your attack rolls. Why else would you get an enhanced AGI arm?
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Oct 9, 2013 03:06
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Doc Dee posted:I'm sure you could work the pump ( One-handed juggling.
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Oct 9, 2013 03:23
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Also rating 3 strength is an enhancement to strength, which is different from a cyberlimb's base strength which can go up to racial maximum. The highest ANY stat can go is racial maximum + 4 enhancement. So the Adept Boost power adds an enhancement The Improve Attribute spells add an enhancement Drugs add an enhancement The total combination of enhancements (on the cyberlimb, from magic, from powers, from drugs) can never go above +4. So your troll could get a Used Cyberarm with STR 10 (3 + 7) as Racial Maximum, and get a rating 3 Enhancement to Strength on it, for 13 total strength. He could take a combat drug, but even if it gave +2 strength he'd only get +1, for the maximum of 14 strength. 14 strength + 5 (with a combat axe, or 19P) means that if you connect with 1 net hit, you deal at least 20P though, so that is always impressive. Can you swing a combat axe one-handed? With 14 strength you can! Its a bit silly. Even with spurs, its still 18P - more than enough to kill anything that lives~
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Oct 9, 2013 03:26
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Can a riot shield be used with a 1-handed weapon to gain the full +6 to armor (assuming you have 6 strength)?
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Oct 9, 2013 03:34
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Laphroaig posted:Also rating 3 strength is an enhancement to strength, which is different from a cyberlimb's base strength which can go up to racial maximum. The highest ANY stat can go is racial maximum + 4 enhancement. It should be silly - you've sunk as much of your resources as literally possible to boost your strength. I'm absolutely ok with that. That said I don't think you can swing a combat axe one-handed regardless of your strength?
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Oct 9, 2013 07:15
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Sup I made a combat decker.Main gimmick for this guy is to AR Deck with the benefit of wireless wired reflexes/reaction enhancer combo (Slaved to the Transys Avalon Commlink), possibly while hopped up on some Jazz. He goes in with the team, helps clear room and stuff and shuts people guns down/hacks turrets/does anything that might be required. Pre-Run he teams up with a Matrix Gang (in Contacts) to help him do Smash and Grabs for datas on tougher targets or recons on his own. I think I squeezed out all the potential I can get out of the most basic cyberdeck and I feel that it might just work out in play. Suggestions welcome as I'd like to make sure I got everything covered. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agu-ssbXNGYMdEdnSXBXNUktbFlXQUNCRjBWNElSUXc&usp=sharing
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Oct 9, 2013 11:35
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Was thinking of house rules. One of these is just taken directly from SR4. How do these sound? STREET GAME: for a street game, one category in priorities must be lower (you choose which). So ACCDE or ABDDE or BBCDE. You choose. MONOWHIPS: 8P rather then 12P. 8P is what a human with 5 strength and a katana does, so monowhip is still really loving powerful in comparison, but the human can take it higher. UNARMED: Killing Hands also makes your unarmed attacks +3P but doesn't stack with bio-bones or wolvering claws. This is to allow unarmed punch-adepts to go pure adept with no 'ware. MELEE: This is the SR4 one. Melee fightan is a standard, not a complex. You can still make only one attack per turn. I for the life of me can't understand why this is still the way it is other then verisimilitude.
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Oct 9, 2013 11:50
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