|
I think it was implied that He got his spot in the Lawful Good afterlife and that anything he does while in Limbo won't nudge him out of that spot. Because it's pretty clear to me that being barred from his afterlife has made him a much worse person.
MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Feb 11, 2014 |
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 21:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 03:46 |
|
ImpAtom posted:That is the act that took her away from being Lawful Good. Every bit of lovely behavior prior to that didn't. That was just being unpleasant and angry, though. As hard as Rich piled dislikeable traits onto Miko and made a huge deal out of everyone hating her, she didn't really do anything that anyone could call evil or wrong until she lost it for good.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 21:34
|
|
|
Eifert Posting posted:I mean if there's some technicality stopping you from being eligible for a job, they don't waste their time interviewing you before telling you that. I can say from experience that this is false.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 22:38
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:That was just being unpleasant and angry, though. As hard as Rich piled dislikeable traits onto Miko and made a huge deal out of everyone hating her, she didn't really do anything that anyone could call evil or wrong until she lost it for good. That's the point I was making, basically. Being an rear end in a top hat doesn't make you not Good even if you're a remarkable snippy petty rear end in a top hat, and as far as we know of Eugene he was pretty firmly on the side of Good even if he was a pretty bad father and kind of an rear end in a top hat. It's the same as how you can be good to your family and still be Evil.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 23:01
|
|
|
It doesn't apply to Eugene because he doesn't care about his family, but there's the argument to be made that looking out for those you care about is, to a degree "selfish." So neglecting your family to go adventuring, where you'd be helping total strangers, is more Good than taking care of your family.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 23:20
|
|
|
reignonyourparade posted:It doesn't apply to Eugene because he doesn't care about his family Uh, not true (SoD Spoilers). The entire reason he didn't pursue the Blood Oath is because he didn't want to abandon his family.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 23:22
|
|
|
I thought Eugene's fault was he never stuck to one thing. He gave 110% until he got bored and moved on. When he was an adventurer he was drat good, but then he wanted a family. With his family he was good husband and father until he got bored of that too. And his hubris always let him convince himself that the new project was always more important that his old projects. It only in his afterlife that he is forced to stick to one project.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 23:32
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:I think it was implied that He got his spot in the Lawful Good afterlife and that anything he does while in Limbo won't nudge him out of that spot. Because it's pretty clear to me that being barred from his afterlife has made him a much worse person. This is most likely true. The Deva told Roy that atoning for misdeeds while alive is far more useful than after death; the same should apply in reverse.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 00:22
|
|
|
I think you almost have to let the people who are LG but lovely at it into the LG afterlife, because there basically isn't an afterlife plane for "good-but-bad-at-it" people. LG assholes don't belong on Mechanus or Elysium or the Outlands any more than they do on Mount Celestia.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 02:29
|
|
|
Shwqa posted:I thought Eugene's fault was he never stuck to one thing. He gave 110% until he got bored and moved on. When he was an adventurer he was drat good, but then he wanted a family. With his family he was good husband and father until he got bored of that too.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 02:38
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:I think you almost have to let the people who are LG but lovely at it into the LG afterlife, because there basically isn't an afterlife plane for "good-but-bad-at-it" people. LG assholes don't belong on Mechanus or Elysium or the Outlands any more than they do on Mount Celestia. They go into the second, less-well-known rear end in a top hat Wall surrounding the City of the Dead.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 08:05
|
|
|
Vorgen posted:They go into the second, less-well-known rear end in a top hat Wall surrounding the City of the Dead. Why would Kelemvor yell at people to get off his lawn when he can get an entire wall to do it for him?
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 09:01
|
|
|
Now I'm imagining just that, the wails of thousands of souls going "GET OFFFF MYYYYY LAAAAAWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNN"
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 11:13
|
|
|
I assume that wall would have slightly fewer crusades against it too.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 11:58
|
|
|
Someone just casts a complementary Deafness spell on anyone who has to walk past it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 17:05
|
|
|
Dr Pepper posted:Uh, not true (SoD Spoilers). The entire reason he didn't pursue the Blood Oath is because he didn't want to abandon his family. I wouldn't say that's the entire reason. He has a thing about commitment.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 17:59
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:I think you almost have to let the people who are LG but lovely at it into the LG afterlife, because there basically isn't an afterlife plane for "good-but-bad-at-it" people. LG assholes don't belong on Mechanus or Elysium or the Outlands any more than they do on Mount Celestia. What are Arcadia and Bytopia even for, then?
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 20:33
|
|
|
Sefer posted:What are Arcadia and Bytopia even for, then? People who think doing good while staying organized is a nice bonus, and people who think being organized about being good is important, but not the most important thing, respectively.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 23:53
|
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:Well poo poo, no wonder Durkonula can still get spells from Thor- since Thor was in on the creation of the goblinoids, millions of sentient beings created only for suffering and death at the hands of the gods' favored races, there's no moral standard by which Thor or any of the gods can be considered good.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 00:49
|
|
|
Yeah, Pope Guilty is about as wrong as it is possible to be in that post. Thor and the other "good" gods are "good" because there is literally a book with the rules the game universe runs by written in it, and it says "these are the good guys" and Thor's on that list. The rules for good and evil are arguably hosed up in the OOTSverse, but "real world" morality does not apply to the RPG world. Somewhere in a Monster Manual there's an entry that says, "these guys are always evil and make good enemies for good PCs, the adults are worth 15 XP and children are worth 5 XP, 6 if they have an improvised melee weapon or 7 if they have missile weapons." No paladins fell during the massacre of Redcloak's village because none of them committed any evil acts. Burlew alludes to the in-game fact that goblin children are inherently evil when the MitD is performing at the circus and nearly all the humans in the audience are repulsed by his form and the goblin children think he's awesome and cool.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 01:59
|
|
|
Froghammer posted:Not exactly: Burlew's been rather up-front that Durkon's no longer getting spells from Thor because vampire clerics don't need to worship a deity in order to gain spells in 3.5. He's just worshiping the concept of Death/Evil/Destruction/Trickery and getting his magic from that. Egads! Then the prophecy regarding Durkon bringing Death and Destruction must actually mean--What? We've already done this one? Oh. ...Carry on, then. (Has anyone yet speculated that the MitD is a Blue-Eyes White Dragon?) (...I'll get my hat.)
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 01:59
|
|
|
I guess I was forgetting that morality in D&D isn't really meaningfully analogous to real-world morality.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 02:02
|
|
|
Durkon's going to exclusively worship trickery and get a prank show on whatever network Xykon watches.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 02:08
|
|
|
TheAceOfLungs posted:(Has anyone yet speculated that the MitD is a Blue-Eyes White Dragon?) That would be pretty great, but sadly his eyes are yellow.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 02:16
|
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:I guess I was forgetting that morality in D&D isn't really meaningfully analogous to real-world morality. It's better in most games to just think of them as opposing teams. Beating up members of the other team is usually the right move.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 02:30
|
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:I guess I was forgetting that morality in D&D isn't really meaningfully analogous to real-world morality. They are in so far as notions of what is acceptable and what is not are determined by power structures.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 02:44
|
|
|
Network Pesci posted:No paladins fell during the massacre of Redcloak's village because none of them committed any evil acts. Burlew alludes to the in-game fact that goblin children are inherently evil when the MitD is performing at the circus and nearly all the humans in the audience are repulsed by his form and the goblin children think he's awesome and cool. I'm pretty sure Rich would be horrified by that interpretation of the book. The Giant posted:And it's ridiculous to think that any given six-year-old may have committed a horrible act worthy of being executed unless the text says otherwise, just because that six-year-old has green skin and her parents bring her to their church services. That right there is enough reason for the story to be the way it is. No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are. The Giant posted:Suffice to say that the Twelve Gods are not beholden to put on the same visual display they did for Miko for every paladin who transgresses, and that all transgressions are not created equal. It is possible that some of the paladins who participated in the attack crossed the line. It is also possible that most did not. A paladin who slips up in the execution of their god-given orders does not warrant the same level of personal attention by the gods as one who executes the legal ruler of their nation on a glorified hunch. Think of Miko's Fall as being the equivalent of the CEO of your multinational company showing up in your cubicle to fire you, because you screwed up THAT much.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 04:29
|
|
|
quote:we don't see how many Detect Evils were used before the attack started, This is deeply, deeply amusing
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 04:53
|
|
|
RentACop posted:This is deeply, deeply amusing I don't get the joke 
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 05:08
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:I don't get the joke He's suggesting that the paladins didn't even bother to check what was or wasn't evil. They saw goblin, they killed goblin.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 05:39
|
|
|
Kruller posted:He's suggesting that the paladins didn't even bother to check what was or wasn't evil. They saw goblin, they killed goblin. Or maybe they all used it and all those evil gobbos showed up as evil and none of the paladins fell at all!
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 05:47
|
|
|
Detect Evil is certainly a spell that puts a lot of weight into the idea that the alignment system was stupid horseshit that did nothing but hamper storytelling, considering using it can apparently make MURDERING A CHILD not an ethical dilemma.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 05:49
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:Detect Evil is certainly a spell that puts a lot of weight into the idea that the alignment system was stupid horseshit that did nothing but hamper storytelling, considering using it can apparently make MURDERING A CHILD not an ethical dilemma. Werewolf: the Apocalypse has a similar ability in Sense Wyrm, with the caveat that while the child in front of you that's setting off Sense Wyrm might be a vampire or something, it also might be a child who ate at O'Tolley's today and not actually in thrall to evil forces. Of course, it undercuts that by having PC factions who believe the child should die anyway...
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 05:52
|
|
|
I really wish I could be a DM to a dude who wants to find the inherent goodness in goblins. I'd jerk him around SO much.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 06:33
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:Detect Evil is certainly a spell that puts a lot of weight into the idea that the alignment system was stupid horseshit that did nothing but hamper storytelling, considering using it can apparently make MURDERING A CHILD not an ethical dilemma. A child who is going to grow up and kill humans. It is total war. Goblin children are legit targets when taking out a goblin camp. A dead goblin child is a goblin you don't have to kill 10 years from now.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 06:38
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:I don't get the joke Sorry I should've said "amusing to me", basically for the reasons Kruller and Lurdaik said
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 06:39
|
|
|
Johnny Aztec posted:A child who is going to grow up and kill humans. It is total war. Goblin children are legit targets when taking out a goblin camp. If you don't put a caveat on this where you say "because of this arbitrary and ethically horrifying metaphysical rules imposed by the Gods" you sound like you're advocating for real world ethnic cleansing, just a heads up.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 07:31
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:Detect Evil is certainly a spell that puts a lot of weight into the idea that the alignment system was stupid horseshit that did nothing but hamper storytelling, considering using it can apparently make MURDERING A CHILD not an ethical dilemma. Are you referring to Burlew's stuff or just in general? Because if it's the former you should read his other post, where he states that murdering children is indeed a bad thing to do, even if they're goblins or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 08:10
|
|
|
Vorgen posted:I really wish I could be a DM to a dude who wants to find the inherent goodness in goblins. I'd jerk him around SO much. Forget goblins, their forums are crawling with people who are all big on the idea of not being racist against demons and dragons and so on.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 08:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 03:46 |
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:If you don't put a caveat on this where you say "because of this arbitrary and ethically horrifying metaphysical rules imposed by the Gods" you sound like you're advocating for real world ethnic cleansing, just a heads up. Goblins don't exist in the real world. Just a heads up. But if they did, we'd ethnic cleanse them SO HARD. Humanity has been training to kill the Evil Other for so long goblins wouldn't stand a chance.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 08:27
|
|