|
NikkolasKing posted:Anyway what I'm getting at is I'm curious about one aspect of the story that maybe I misunderstood and others with more patience than me did comprehend. Were the Angels the bad guys? Why were they attacking humanity at all? The Angels, just like many of the humans in the show, are primarily concerned with regaining lost love and stopping the pain of loneliness. They will stop at absolutely nothing to try and be together with Lillith/Adam again, willing to destroy an entire race just for that reason. They are dark mirrors of Shinji and company: Shinji endures all of the hate and pain that goes with piloting an Evangelion, willingly annihilating the Angels, just for the slim possibility of connecting with his father. They were antagonists, but they weren't really "bad" in any way that was fundamentally different from how the main characters were "bad."
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2014 03:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 10:31 |
|
|
They were here on Earth first. We're the invading aliens.  (Their space egg was here before ours, a second space egg was not meant to land here)
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2014 05:38
|
|
|
You snooze you lose. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2014 12:41
|
|
|
I was born here, this is my home; I am not an alien.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2014 15:05
|
|
|
The Angels (aside from Kaworu) have not partaken the fruit of knowledge and therefore have no understanding of good or evil.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2014 00:38
|
|
|
So I watched NGE and EoE for the first time maybe ten years ago, and aside from another rewatch maybe three years after that, haven't watched or read anything about it since. Until I marathoned the Rebuilds last night and, uh, all these old feelings. Coming back. gently caress. I was kind of disappointed that Rebuild 3 seemed to follow a pretty lovely sci fi trope where there's a time jump and no one has time to update the PoV character on what the gently caress happened over the past n years. So far I've really enjoyed them all. I think that after EoE I (like a lot of people) felt still totally unfulfilled with the ending, so probably part of what's driving my enjoyment is just getting to see new Evangelion poo poo. Has there been any word at all about the development/release of Rebuild 4? Also, I read the Eva Geeks wiki to refresh myself on everything. What the gently caress, it's all aliens? I mean, I guess some stuff went over my head when I watched it a decade ago, but drat. I honestly thought that Lilith, Adam, and such were actually "divine" in the conventional sense, not "artifices" to be controlled (or to attempt to control). One question (spoiling it because I don't know what's alright to spoil and what isn't): What's up with Kaworu saying "I'll promise I'll make you happy this time" at the end of Rebuild 2? Is it potentially teasing that the Evangelion universe is stuck in some Groundhog Day poo poo, and at the end of EoE resulted in everything starting over again? The bloodstreak on the moon (from EoE Lilith/Rei?) makes me think this could be true. Also please god shinji become a non-mopey motherfucker for once in this series. ONCE. I don't care if you become a generic action warrior. just loving do something. I had little patience for this emotional inertia poo poo when I was 14 and even less now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 04:17
|
|
|
How the gently caress do you enjoy watching Evangelion if you don't have any patience for Shinji being loving terrified of life?
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 05:32
|
|
|
DrPop posted:Also please god shinji become a non-mopey motherfucker for once in this series. ONCE. I don't care if you become a generic action warrior. just loving do something. I had little patience for this emotional inertia poo poo when I was 14 and even less now. That is kind of the point of Evangelion though. I mean a non-mopey Shinji is a really really boring character. (Even in SRW, where I enjoy it because he has a lot of ridiculous people to play off of.)
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 05:35
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:That is kind of the point of Evangelion though. I mean a non-mopey Shinji is a really really boring character. (Even in SRW, where I enjoy it because he has a lot of ridiculous people to play off of.) I mean, if I'll be forgiven for paraphrasing Yahtzee, Shinji's much like Batman in that if he ever gets over his crippling neuroses he'll basically cease to exist as an interesting character. The entire message of the show revolves around precisely how and why Shinji is profoundly socially hosed, many viewers find the show compelling precisely because they're waiting for the moment where he either gets unfucked or terminally hosed, and some of the show's greatest moments of catharsis, as far as I'm concerned anyway, lie in those moments where he makes some small victory in unfucking himself. I mean, I'm coming off as really hostile which I honestly don't intend, I just don't grasp how anyone can stand to watch this show, let alone enjoy it, if they find Shinji's hosed-upness to be that grating.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 06:10
|
|
|
DrPop posted:I was kind of disappointed that Rebuild 3 seemed to follow a pretty lovely sci fi trope where there's a time jump and no one has time to update the PoV character on what the gently caress happened over the past n years.
quote:What's up with Kaworu saying "I'll promise I'll make you happy this time" at the end of Rebuild 2? Is it potentially teasing that the Evangelion universe is stuck in some Groundhog Day poo poo, and at the end of EoE resulted in everything starting over again? The bloodstreak on the moon (from EoE Lilith/Rei?) makes me think this could be true. quote:Also please god shinji become a non-mopey motherfucker for once in this series. ONCE. I don't care if you become a generic action warrior. just loving do something. I had little patience for this emotional inertia poo poo when I was 14 and even less now. And then he took initiative during Rebuild 3 in the hope of atoning for his past mistakes, and promptly shat the bed. It isn't just authorial fiat forcing him to be a mopey motherfucker; his depression reflects the state of the world (lovely), his self-esteem (non-existent), his sense of abandonment (total), and his ability to relate to the people around him (minimal).
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 06:39
|
|
|
Spiritus Nox posted:I mean, if I'll be forgiven for paraphrasing Yahtzee, Shinji's much like Batman in that if he ever gets over his crippling neuroses he'll basically cease to exist as an interesting character. The entire message of the show revolves around precisely how and why Shinji is profoundly socially hosed, many viewers find the show compelling precisely because they're waiting for the moment where he either gets unfucked or terminally hosed, and some of the show's greatest moments of catharsis, as far as I'm concerned anyway, lie in those moments where he makes some small victory in unfucking himself. The anime's ending was pretty satisfying and triumphant for Shinji and I, in retrospect, liked it a lot. One of the many reasons I don't like EOE. The ending of that....thing was anything but satisfying and triumphant. Also it's mostly an awesome moment for Kaji but when Shinji runs away the second time and just stumbles upon Kaji casaully watering his garden while the city is about to be destroyed. He has a little chat with Shinji and gets teh kid to go back. That was one of my favorite episodes. DrPop posted:Also please god shinji become a non-mopey motherfucker for once in this series. ONCE. I don't care if you become a generic action warrior. just loving do something. I had little patience for this emotional inertia poo poo when I was 14 and even less now. Kamille knows how to angst right. In between contemplating how much your life sucks, you beat up people. i hear Manga Shinji actually tried to punch Gendo. Good for him. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Jul 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 09:45
|
|
|
I understand that "Shinji's hosed up" is the crux of the series and I think that it's mostly done well (and I exaggerated how much it bothers me), but I still think that's overdone to an extent. Is the manga still being made, or has it wrapped up?
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 13:32
|
|
|
The "official" NGE manga ended last year. I would read it but I don't want Evil Kaworu. The fact Kaworu was the one genuinely nice and honest thing in all of the anime was why he's my favorite.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 13:36
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:I would read it but I don't want Evil Kaworu. The fact Kaworu was the one genuinely nice and honest thing in all of the anime was why he's my favorite. Kaworu's role in the show and the Rebuild movies is defined almost entirely by lies of omission. Also Shinji could still be interesting without crippling neuroses, it's kind of baseless to say he can't. There are a whole string of episodes early in the series where he acts with nearly heroic motivations, is forming family-like bonds with Rei and Misato, etc. Imagine if he'd had the chance to continue down that path; he still wouldn't be exactly normal for a very long time (nevermind flawless) but he'd have a real chance to rebuild himself as a person, which is an important thing for teenagers to do anyways, really. We've already seen the end result of Shinji refusing all self-determination until it's literally thrust upon him at the last minute by God, and as much as I love EoE I think it would be redundant to show us that again. edit: Also why is it always "Shinji, Shinji, Shinji." The original pitch for Evangelion had Misato as co-protagonist and personally I'd like a conclusion to Rei's story that isn't "she stops being a person / commits mystical suicide." Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Jul 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 15:16
|
|
|
TV Shinji comes awfully close to doing all right, and it felt to me like the character development kept getting deliberately reset to use the characters as platforms for what seemed less like their own problems and more Anno's philosophical soapboxing. If only because there's really a difference between character-motivated writing, and plot-motivated writing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 15:26
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:Kaworu's role in the show and the Rebuild movies is defined almost entirely by lies of omission. I thought Kaworu's role was defined by saying he loved Shinji and treating him nicely and then being killed. That's all I took from it. Kaworu was the one character who has no emotional hang-ups, no deeply-rooted psychological trauma or need or ulterior motive. He just...cared. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jul 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 15:28
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:I thought Kaworu's role was defined by saying he loved Shinji and treating him nicely and then being killed. I think they mean more on the matter of 'is Kaworu evil/good' (in reference to calling manga!Kaworu 'evil') because he's just about entirely ambiguous, if only through lack of information about him, if not harmful, and it's hard to slot him into either category. We really don't learn a lot about him, Misato and Rei at least get a little elaboration.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 15:31
|
|
|
Basically thisTuxedo Catfish posted:Also Shinji could still be interesting without crippling neuroses, it's kind of baseless to say he can't. There are a whole string of episodes early in the series where he acts with nearly heroic motivations, is forming family-like bonds with Rei and Misato, etc. Imagine if he'd had the chance to continue down that path; he still wouldn't be exactly normal for a very long time (nevermind flawless) but he'd have a real chance to rebuild himself as a person, which is an important thing for teenagers to do anyways, really. And this junopsis posted:TV Shinji comes awfully close to doing all right, and it felt to me like the character development kept getting deliberately reset to use the characters as platforms for what seemed less like their own problems and more Anno's philosophical soapboxing. If only because there's really a difference between character-motivated writing, and plot-motivated writing. Were kind of what I was getting at in a really obtuse way when I said mopey Shinji bothered me. In the TV series, every step Shinji took forward felt like it was arbitrarily reset or deus ex machina'd for the sake of just making poo poo more hopeless for the sake of being hopeless (and plot advancement), and I also felt that his perpetual crippling neuroses eventually hit a point were it wasn't believable (I know, "believable" in a god robot anime) that he was still suffering from them, given everything he'd borne witness to. I'm really curious to see how they end the Rebuilds. I hope it's not just Shinji's Introspective and Inaccessible Instrumentality Fun Time again.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 16:19
|
|
|
I'm not sure it'd be evangelion if it were anything else...
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 16:27
|
|
|
Its not that Shinjis development is arbitrarily reset so much as every time he takes a step someone yanks the rug out from under him, and anyone whose been in an abusive situation understands that when you're surrounded by broken people they will do anything to pull you back down if you start raising yourself up.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 17:30
|
|
|
DrPop posted:Were kind of what I was getting at in a really obtuse way when I said mopey Shinji bothered me. In the TV series, every step Shinji took forward felt like it was arbitrarily reset or deus ex machina'd for the sake of just making poo poo more hopeless for the sake of being hopeless (and plot advancement), and I also felt that his perpetual crippling neuroses eventually hit a point were it wasn't believable (I know, "believable" in a god robot anime) that he was still suffering from them, given everything he'd borne witness to. Shinji's metal state is a pretty close depiction of actual clinical depression, which can similarly frustrating for anyone close to the afflicted. You're always looking for a reason to make everything go to poo poo again in your head, and Shinji gets bucketloads of reasons every day. The masochistic little symbiosis he and Asuka create would put anyone with his mindset in a psych ward.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2014 17:36
|
|
|
Shinji develops eventually through the final perception of the nature of his reality, that its his own perception that shapes who he is and how he feels. Its a big step for anyone to grasp this, let alone a socially inept PSTD suffering 14 year old. Hell most TV protagonists never learn this, having their hero's journey just be the reinforcing of their character or the learning of a simple lesson. I would argue Shinji should get a bit more credit, by the end of the original series and EOE, despite the trauma and mind fucks, he learns some key truths of human existance. As sad and pathetic Shinji is, he in fact figured out something most people never even begin to grasp.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 01:42
|
|
|
Yeah, and he only had to jack off on one semi-conscious girl to be able to get to that point!
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 03:56
|
|
|
He didn't get any on her.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 03:58
|
|
|
Did Bisse watch rebuild yet?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 10:41
|
|
|
SHISHKABOB posted:He didn't get any on her. Yeah he did! It was gross!
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 10:49
|
|
|
DrPop posted:Yeah, and he only had to jack off on one semi-conscious girl to be able to get to that point! SHISHKABOB posted:He didn't get any on her. DiscoMouse posted:Yeah he did! It was gross!  No seriously, why do people like End of Evangelion again? I freely admit that when I watched it the one time I kinda just zoned out after about thirty minutes because I had no clue what was going on or why I should care. The only time I revived a bit was when Asuka came back awake because she was fighting off SEELE's Evas and I understood enough of this BS plot to know that she shouldn't be able to do that. She didn't have an S2 Engine and they did. Then they randomly kill her after losing for a few minutes for no apparent reason. If I didn't like Eva too much would I not enjoy RahXephon? Then again I don't even know if the two are actually alike. People have said they are but people also told me for years NGE was like Xenogears and that was bullshit. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Jul 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 11:06
|
|
|
EoE is so much fun to watch, even now. I enjoy it immensely for the experience, and to see if there's anything I've missed over the years. Great fun, every single time. I agree on the Shinji stuff, too. I understand people being frustrated with him, because there is hero potential inside of the kid. He doesn't NOT care, he just has a hard time putting his hand on the hot stove for the fifth time. Can't really blame a guy for losing any or all of his motivation when everyone he knows is either comatose, moving away, limbless, a clone, distant, or dead because of things that you did. Is it directly Shinji's fault for all of these things? No, but holy poo poo. There are two times in the series where I think Shinji tries to go beyond the "if I don't do it no one will" mentality; Leliel and Zeruel. In both of those cases he is nearly lost forever, and his psyche assaulted. It's one thing to be physically beat down when you try to stand up, it's another to nearly go insane when you try to do the right thing. Shinji wants to be better, and tries sometimes, but the series beats him down every step of the way. It's kinda why I enjoy the end of the TV series, personally. At the end of the road, Shinji admits he hasn't really helped himself in...uh, helping himself, and realizes he won't get anywhere if he just gives up. It's kinda uplifting, watching him realize that. I dunno, I really enjoy Shinji as a character. I can't help but root for him. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 11:22
|
|
|
Rahxephon is a happier Eva, but has just as much psychoanalytical nonsense. Well, happier until you reach THAT episode. It is kinda hosed in its own way but I liked it a lot. If you want super hosed up read the manga version, it has a COMPLETELY different story than the anime and is only 3 volumes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 11:23
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:
Basically how good a pilot is, relies quite heavily on how good they think they are. There was no reason she couldn't fight, she remembered "wait a second, I'm loving Asuka!" They didn't randomly kill her, she was a high priority target. All the S2 does is allow them to fight with out an external power source. Once Asuka's 5 minute battery ran out, she couldn't even make the Eva walk. After that, it was like spearing fish in a barrel.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 11:55
|
|
|
DrPop posted:Yeah, and he only had to jack off on one semi-conscious girl to be able to get to that point! Well he did think he was mentally hosed in the head and a awful human being, jerking off over her would not have been thar much of a stretch. This also highlights the main reason Shinji was annoying. He would say to himself "im a wimp and a horrible person", based on things out of his control, then go do something awful and wimpy and say to himself "im horrible this proves it". It is not until the end of the original series that Shinji learns that he is what ever he wants to be, people will perceive him by his actions and he has a choice. Put it this way, you can't have a redemptive arc without making GBS threads in a few beds before it. Its just in EVA its was in EOE and even then it was a ten second sequence. Foul Ole Ron fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Jul 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 11:57
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:No seriously, why do people like End of Evangelion again? I freely admit that when I watched it the one time I kinda just zoned out after about thirty minutes because I had no clue what was going on or why I should care. The only time I revived a bit was when Asuka came back awake because she was fighting off SEELE's Evas and I understood enough of this BS plot to know that she shouldn't be able to do that. She didn't have an S2 Engine and they did. Then they randomly kill her after losing for a few minutes for no apparent reason. How did you even get through the series?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 11:58
|
|
|
Ak Gara posted:Basically how good a pilot is, relies quite heavily on how good they think they are. There was no reason she couldn't fight, she remembered "wait a second, I'm loving Asuka!" I thought the S2 Engine made them all crazy powerful which is why it was so special when Berserk Unit 1 ate the one Angel and absorbed its S2 Engine? There was also another Eva research lab that was wiped of the face of the planet by mishandling their creation of an S2 Engine, right? Although I alway shad the vague idea it as sabotaged by NERV or SEELE or someone.... Facepalm Ranger posted:How did you even get through the series? I managed to enjoy the characters and tried to forget about the plot. I couldn't do that with EOE since it was all about the plot and the only character closure or development anyone got was death. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 12:39 on Jul 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 12:37
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:
EoE is Anno loving with the fans and putting in a bunch of stuff that people said they wanted in a 'real' ending and twisting it all horribly. Also I'd love any film that was the authors rage manifest on screen.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 12:40
|
|
|
Ak Gara posted:Basically how good a pilot is, relies quite heavily on how good they think they are. There was no reason she couldn't fight, she remembered "wait a second, I'm loving Asuka!" The rad thing here though it is that her self belief was reaffirmed by the realisation of her mother being with her, it is not a true self affirmation, she has her mothers approval but not her own.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 13:01
|
|
|
"This also highlights the main reason Shinji was annoying. He would say to himself "im a wimp and a horrible person", based on things out of his control, then go do something awful and wimpy and say to himself "im horrible thos proves it"." This is an actual real thing that depressed and hosed up people do. No wonder there's so little help or shits given for the mentally ill in our country, everybody just looks at them and says "god what a douche".
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 13:14
|
|
|
SHISHKABOB posted:"This also highlights the main reason Shinji was annoying. He would say to himself "im a wimp and a horrible person", based on things out of his control, then go do something awful and wimpy and say to himself "im horrible thos proves it"." Well actually that and a lot of otuko and anime fans also see themselves in the character of Shinji and the resultant hate is their denial/self disgust made manifest and projected on him.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 13:37
|
|
|
I see myself pretty dang strongly in Shinji and connect with his character, but I never hated him. Maybe that means I don't actually hate myself. But thinking that just makes me want to hate myself even more. Evangelion is a dumb show for dumb depressed kids. If you're not a dumb depressed kid then I don't think you'll like it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 13:41
|
|
|
Rah Xephon is about a pedophile who wants to bang the time-frozen, still-teenaged version of her highschool crush and was dating his clone for years. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 15:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 10:31 |
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:I managed to enjoy the characters and tried to forget about the plot. Why would you continue watching it if you actively tried to ignore the plot??  Did you just watching it going "look [character] is on screen!" and "ugh, their talking about thiiiinnnngggs". I'm not trying to offend you, just trying to understand how you can watch only basically a part of a 26 episode series.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 15:30
|
|