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The importance of Wakanda being an African nation is that it subverts the expectations of what it means to be an African nation. African nations have been given a diminished role in the modern world. While the Middle East and Asia have been victims of European imperialism, there have rarely been points in history where there was a complete vacuum of power and political capital in those regions. Right now, China, Japan, South Korea, and India are seen as important players going into the 21st century. The Middle East, despite all its turmoil, still has nations like Saudi Arabia whose wealth forces the world to pay attention to them. Africa is often seen as a continent built on nothing but turmoil. It's a continent that, for many Americans, is defined by colonialism. Americans learn about Egypt, but that's about it. The history of Africa is a mystery for many between the sixth century and fifteenth century. And most of the history they learned is in the context of predominantly white nations. And this ties into a larger African-American narrative: Something was stolen. Beyond the indignities of slavery, the thing that can never be returned to the African American community is the heritage, culture, and pride that was robbed. That's why it's idiotic when people complain about the hypocrisy of people being proud of being Black, but not being able to be proud of White. Whites get to know where they come from (Or at least pretend they do). Asian and Hispanic communities tend to easily break down on ethnic lines once you're actually a member of those communities. For many blacks in America, history has been robbed. They don't know where they came from. Their heritage begins in America. A new culture and tradition had to be created based on the shared experience of slavery, prejudice, segregation, and the struggle that came with those things. That's why you'll find that immigrants from Haiti or Nigeria don't easily fit into black communities. Superhero stories parallel a lot of African-American stories because many superhero stories are built on the idea of secret power and being something other than what you are perceived as. You think I'm just some mild-mannered schlub, but I'm actually a Sun-God. You think I'm lazy and irresponsible, but I was really fighting an industrialist in a goblin costume. Wakanda applies that notion to a whole continent. It subverts the stereotypes of Africa. An African country cannot just exist on the level of predominantly white nations, but surpass those nations. That subversion doesn't really work for other places in the world and it doesn't serve an American context in the way that an African Wakanda does. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 16:52
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Lobok posted:It's easier for white males to agree to a race change when the default for characters across all media is white and male. Oh no, Spider-Man turned black, now I only have a billion other fictional characters I can identify with. What does it mean to black people to have a black character changed though? It's not so simple to say equality is being able to change any character's race or gender when there's such a huge imbalance by default. For me, there's a difference between having a separate character pick up the mantle, and deciding to just change a character's race. Peter being replaced by Morales or anyone else? Fine. Let's make Matt Murdock a black woman. What? Why? Marvel can be pretty lazy about these kinds of things, and rather than actually create new female or non-white characters, they figure they'll just use said character's already established popularity and change some poo poo to pander to a new demographic. It's dumb. This is why, for me, Falcon becoming Cap isn't a big deal, and is actually pretty great. At this point, Captain America is a title, not a person, and Falcon legitimately is a fantastic replacement for Rogers, based both on his relationship with Rogers and his history as a member of the team. Female Thor? Clearly a publicity stunt meant to cater to women. Why else would they go to the view to announce that kind of change? And again, Thor isn't a title. It's the dude's name. It just seems incredibly lazy to me. DON'T YELL AT ME IM NOT WHITE Timeless Appeal posted:Words And to top it all off, Wakanda has the one resource everyone wants, but no one can have, unless specifically allowed by TÇhalla: Vibranium. Xeremides fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 16:53
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Xeremides posted:For me, there's a difference between having a separate character pick up the mantle, and deciding to just change a character's race. Peter being replaced by Morales or anyone else? Fine. Let's make Matt Murdock a black woman. What? Why? Marvel can be pretty lazy about these kinds of things, and rather than actually create new female or non-white characters, they figure they'll just use said character's already established popularity and change some poo poo to pander to a new demographic. It's dumb. This is why, for me, Falcon becoming Cap isn't a big deal, and is actually pretty great. At this point, Captain America is a title, not a person, and Falcon legitimately is a fantastic replacement for Rogers, based both on his relationship with Rogers and his history as a member of the team. Female Thor? Clearly a publicity stunt meant to cater to women. Why else would they go to the view to announce that kind of change? And again, Thor isn't a title. It's the dude's name. It just seems incredibly lazy to me. They went to the Colbert Report to announce the Falcon, and we know that Stephen Colbert does not see race. We need to first see who the female Thor is.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:56
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Acting like Black Panther could be changed to a white dude and leave the character basically the same strikes me as some "no, you see, I don't see race, you should try to be more colorblind" poo poo.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:58
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bobkatt013 posted:They went to the Colbert Report to announce the Falcon, and we know that Stephen Colbert does not see race. We need to first see who the female Thor is. I mean, Colbert also covered the death of Cap pretty extensively, and has a giant Cap shield hanging up on set. That's a little different to me than rushing off to the View to inform a bunch of 40-somethings that Thor is now a woman, who is not really Thor because Thor is a person, but still totally Thor. Personally, I'm just waiting for Silver Surfer to be a sassy black woman.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:58
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Acting like Black Panther could be changed to a white dude and leave the character basically the same strikes me as some "no, you see, I don't see race, you should try to be more colorblind" poo poo.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:15
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Xeremides posted:Personally, I'm just waiting for Silver Surfer to be a sassy black woman. He was already a black man
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Jul 17, 2014 17:16
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bobkatt013 posted:He was already a black man Only in his voice box. He'll always be the lilly-white paleface wonderbread man in body and spirit, though.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:19
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I think I've posted it in this thread before, but I always wished that the first Thor movie was about Natalie Portman's lazy friend picking up the hammer and becoming the new god of thunder. Then Portman is mad jealous, o.g. Thor pinches the bridge of his nose and sighs heavily about the hammer being held incorrectly, etc.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:20
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Acting like Black Panther could be changed to a white dude and leave the character basically the same strikes me as some "no, you see, I don't see race, you should try to be more colorblind" poo poo. Arguably you could apply it to a Native American (or whatever the equivalent term is in South America) though.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:30
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computer parts posted:Arguably you could apply it to a Native American (or whatever the equivalent term is in South America) though. Sure, but as with any time people suggest poo poo like that my first thought is "Why not just make a new Native American/South American character instead?"
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Jul 17, 2014 17:33
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Sure, but as with any time people suggest poo poo like that my first thought is "Why not just make a new Native American/South American character instead?" Exactly. And the answer is, "We make more money and faster through gender benders and flipping races by exploiting an established character's popularity and pushing a new narrative to expand our customer base. Once the flow of cash turns into a trickle, we switch back to the original character or establish a new narrative that allows the original character to exist alongside the new one".
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Jul 17, 2014 17:39
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Xeremides posted:I mean, Colbert also covered the death of Cap pretty extensively, and has a giant Cap shield hanging up on set. That's a little different to me than rushing off to the View to inform a bunch of 40-somethings that Thor is now a woman, who is not really Thor because Thor is a person, but still totally Thor. Thor has been a title in Marvel comics before and women have held the hammer and had the powers (Storm) HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Oh, that would be super easy. Totes. Uncle Boogeyman posted:Sure, but as with any time people suggest poo poo like that my first thought is "Why not just make a new Native American/South American character instead?" Ugh one is enough stop PCing up my safe space
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Jul 17, 2014 17:41
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DeimosRising posted:Thor has been a title in Marvel comics before and women have held the hammer and had the powers (Storm) Wielding Mjolnir doesn't turn you into Thor. It bestows upon the user his powers. Thor Odinson is his name. Thor, Son of Odin. It isn't a title. Storm with Mjolnir? Still Storm. Cap wielding Mjolnir? Still Cap. Thor wielding a cane? Still Thor. Even without the hammer, Thor still possesses the God Force. Because he's a God. He's Thor. That isn't his day job. It's who he actually is.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:44
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The white Black Panther would be Dr. Doom, essentially, or a Prester John character. Not for nothing does he butt heads with Namor and the like.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:55
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Xeremides posted:They need to just give Cap Mjolnir and the Worldmind and call it a day. and the Uni-Power...
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Jul 17, 2014 17:59
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:The white Black Panther would be Dr. Doom, essentially, or a Prester John character. Not for nothing does he butt heads with Namor and the like. Well, if you literally just made Black Panther into a white guy, I think you would basically be writing The Phantom. Which sort of makes it obvious why his race is important.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:06
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Xeremides posted:Wielding Mjolnir doesn't turn you into Thor. It bestows upon the user his powers. Thor Odinson is his name. Thor, Son of Odin. It isn't a title. Storm with Mjolnir? Still Storm. Cap wielding Mjolnir? Still Cap. Thor wielding a cane? Still Thor. Even without the hammer, Thor still possesses the God Force. Because he's a God. He's Thor. That isn't his day job. It's who he actually is. Thor is a God with the God part sealed in a hammer. He is only himself dependent on his actions. What is a name? What is an identity? In a world where people can change their names, divorce their parents and change their genders (even temporarily to become the mother of their father's horse), what is the entity formerly known as Thor without his hammer?
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Jul 17, 2014 18:17
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sassassin posted:Thor is a God with the God part sealed in a hammer. He is only himself dependent on his actions. What is a name? What is an identity? In a world where people can change their names, divorce their parents and change their genders (even temporarily to become the mother of their father's horse), what is the entity formerly known as Thor without his hammer? Negative. God-Force and his genetic heritage grant him a ridiculous number of powers and abilities. Mjolnir is a tool that grants him additional abilities as bestowed by Odin, and a means by which to channel his energy abilities. Just by virtue of being an Asgardian, and the God of Strength, etc, he is a force to be reckoned with. It takes someone on Odin's level to actually remove all of his abilities in order to make him nothing more than a really strong dude. In fact, his life force, his God-Force surpasses the powers granted by Mjolnir. So, again, without his hammer, he's still a God. He's an Asgardian. He's still enormously powerful. He's still a force to be reckoned with. More than that, he's still Thor. That is who he is. He can change his name to Bob, he can become a janitor for a living, and he will still be Thor. It's his name, its his legacy and its his birthright. This isn't conjecture. It's straight up canon.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:25
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Xeremides posted:Wielding Mjolnir doesn't turn you into Thor. It bestows upon the user his powers. Thor Odinson is his name. Thor, Son of Odin. It isn't a title. Storm with Mjolnir? Still Storm. Cap wielding Mjolnir? Still Cap. Thor wielding a cane? Still Thor. Even without the hammer, Thor still possesses the God Force. Because he's a God. He's Thor. That isn't his day job. It's who he actually is. What are women's last names in cultures where they use the "Odinson" type naming scheme? Also, people who say it'd be impossible to have a Black Captain America with the same back story, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Bradley
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Jul 17, 2014 18:27
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Skwirl posted:What are women's last names in cultures where they use the "Odinson" type naming scheme? Odinsdottir?
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Jul 17, 2014 18:29
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greatn posted:Both of whom were her boss. Problematic. I guess its the Corporate HR drilled into my head, but this bothered me in both movies, and reduced the agency of Rachel's character since it could be argued in each movie she only has the job because she's sleeping with the boss.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:36
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Skwirl posted:What are women's last names in cultures where they use the "Odinson" type naming scheme? They're probably not called the sons of Odin. Maybe Odinsdottir. That's an interesting character, but that isn't exactly replacing Captain America so much as existing alongside him. They repeatedly state they were trying to reproduce the super soldier serum already proven to be successful in Rogers. Again, Rogers is important because he turns the Nazi program on its head, becoming the physical manifestation of the Nazi ideal, while being instrumental in their destruction. Isaiah is a cool character, but he doesn't accomplish the same kind of victory over the Nazis by virtue of not being representative of what the Nazis idealized in people. But again, this kind of character, or Falcon becoming Cap, are awesome because they don't try to negate the existence of Rogers, but build upon the mythos he created. They're their own people; not a gender or race bender for the sake of doing so. Edit: Dude above me covered the daughter thing. Xeremides fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 18:36
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Skwirl posted:What are women's last names in cultures where they use the "Odinson" type naming scheme? Depends on the culture, there are significant chunks of history where everyone not mega rich's full name was just "son of ____" or "____'s woman."
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Jul 17, 2014 18:43
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Myrddin_Emrys posted:He was in love with Rachael then she died, 8 years later Selina came along and he fell in love with her. I see no objectification of women here. What I mean to say is I think your talking poo poo. "Bruce, don't make me your only hope for a normal life."
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Jul 17, 2014 19:02
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Darko posted:"Bruce, don't make me your only hope for a normal life." Her being his only hope for a normal life is not the same thing as her only being a hope for a normal life, which is what you're suggesting.
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Jul 17, 2014 19:06
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Sir Kodiak posted:Her being his only hope for a normal life is not the same thing as her only being a hope for a normal life, which is what you're suggesting. Bruce only saw everyone in relation to what they could do for him, pre-pit, not just her. He was a giant man-child, which is a big part of his deconstruction. As pointed out, he was "in love" with a woman that he knew when he was 12 years old and saw like 3 times briefly after that, the first time of which, she slapped him for babbling about shooting people. That's not normal behavior. edit: Comparing it to other movies isn't really right. If you compare it to Nolan movies, a big theme is men using women only as an object of obsession or as tools for a means to an end. His first film, Following, was all that, Prestige blatantly stated that in dialogue with Angier (and the Bale bros were even worse), Inception was so ridiculous that she was actually a projection of his guilt. It's a running theme in Nolan's movies, and normally a negative indictment against the related characters. Darko fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 19:11
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Darko posted:Bruce only saw everyone in relation to what they could do for him, pre-pit, not just her. He was a giant man-child, which is a big part of his deconstruction. If you'll recall I agree with this. I was responding to the argument, not the conclusion. She was talking about him needing to grow in many different ways to have a normal life, not saying that he was objectifying her.
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Jul 17, 2014 19:23
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Darko posted:edit: Comparing it to other movies isn't really right. If you compare it to Nolan movies, a big theme is men using women only as an object of obsession or as tools for a means to an end. His first film, Following, was all that, Prestige blatantly stated that in dialogue with Angier (and the Bale bros were even worse), Inception was so ridiculous that she was actually a projection of his guilt. It's a running theme in Nolan's movies, and normally a negative indictment against the related characters. And then he goes on to make TDKR where Alfred tells Bruce to gently caress off with his obsession with Rachel, Bruce doesn't see his real enemy because he prescribes the villain's interesting back story to a male character, and has a more human relationship with Selina.
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Jul 18, 2014 15:06
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Timeless Appeal posted:Although it's important to remember that Inception is Nolan coming to terms with his issues involving women. The big catharsis that Cobb has at the end of the film is that his obsession cannot do justice to who his wife was as a person. It is acknowledgment from Nolan that a woman as motivation can never equal a woman as character. I don't really think it's "issues," though, because Nolan criticizes his characters through the lens of their obsessions. It may be a particular topic that he likes focusing on, but there's no way there's an endorsement there - in Following, this was the main character's downfall, in Memento, the main character was lying to himself constantly to cover his own guilt and is stuck in a perpetual fantasy, in Prestige, every character was completely screwed over, with only the one that cared the most, surviving. As you stated, Inception and TDKR are the only ones of his films with "happy" outcomes for the main characters, and in both, it's because they actually come to grips with related issues.
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Jul 18, 2014 15:26
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Xeremides posted:Wielding Mjolnir doesn't turn you into Thor. It bestows upon the user his powers. Thor Odinson is his name. Thor, Son of Odin. It isn't a title. Storm with Mjolnir? Still Storm. Cap wielding Mjolnir? Still Cap. Thor wielding a cane? Still Thor. Even without the hammer, Thor still possesses the God Force. Because he's a God. He's Thor. That isn't his day job. It's who he actually is. Both Erik Masterson and Red Norvell referred to themselves as "Thor" when they had the power.
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Jul 18, 2014 15:37
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Rhyno posted:Both Erik Masterson and Red Norvell referred to themselves as "Thor" when they had the power. Was he pretending to be Thor at one point? I've read some non-Thor issues where it seems as though he doesn't want to let on that he's not the usual Thor. [Checks Wikipedia] Actually, never mind. I can't make heads or tails of who Thor "was" back then. Mergings, unmergings, secret identities, etc.
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Jul 18, 2014 15:45
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Rhyno posted:Both Erik Masterson and Red Norvell referred to themselves as "Thor" when they had the power. He's given Thor's form and abilities, as well as having the actual Thor sealed within his mind by Odin. That's a little different than picking up a hammer. Norvell had to don a bunch of gear enchanted by Odin with Thor's essence, and even then was more of a Thor doppleganger. In both scenarios, you have Odin loving around to recreate his son. The first scenario has Odin saving Masterson by locking Thor within his mind. The latter has Loki tricking Red into wearing gear enchanted by Odin; gear created in case Thor died or was otherwise indisposed, rendering the wearer Thor-like, but not Thor. In both scenarios, the person isn't Thor, but Thor-like. Why? Because Thor is an actual person, not a title. Erik is closer to being Thor than Red as a result of actually having Thor within him. Red is just Bizarro Thor. Xeremides fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Jul 18, 2014 |
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Jul 18, 2014 15:51
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Captain America to be rebranded as an African American, what do you think of this? Marvel suddenly going all PC with the recent Thor sex change? http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/28340644
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Jul 18, 2014 15:54
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Myrddin_Emrys posted:Captain America to be rebranded as an African American, what do you think of this? Marvel suddenly going all PC with the recent Thor sex change? They do this poo poo all the time, but usually just with gender benders. I'm actually okay with Falcon taking on the mantle of Cap as that actually is a title, and certainly moreso than Thor. I don't like what they've done to Rogers in making him physically a feeble old man, even if he still is mentally sharp, but this actually feels a lot like Batman Beyond, with Falcon being Terry and old-rear end Cap being Bruce in his ear piece. That said, stop tearing down and exploiting popular characters for the purpose of pushing an agenda, Marvel.
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Jul 18, 2014 16:06
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Individual writers may have agendas, but Marvel doesn't. They have a bottom line.
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Jul 18, 2014 16:12
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Xeremides posted:That said, stop tearing down and exploiting popular characters for the purpose of pushing an agenda, Marvel. New characters in comics must do terribly right? It's safer to rebrand probably right?
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Jul 18, 2014 16:12
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Xeremides posted:That said, stop tearing down and exploiting popular characters for the purpose of pushing an agenda, Marvel. Oh please.
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Jul 18, 2014 16:15
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Jerk McJerkface posted:New characters in comics must do terribly right? It's safer to rebrand probably right? Rebranded characters usually do terribly too and they almost always revert to their original form after just a short run.
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Jul 18, 2014 16:26
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In the original mythology Thor, Odin and Loki all crossdress and even shapeshift into literal women. Making her 'a separate female character who is also Thor' is actually wussing out.
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Jul 18, 2014 16:29
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