DrPop posted:I just rewatched EoE and it got me thinking again. Some questions: Unit-01 is the only NERV Eva that actually matters. And, yeah, it seemed like all the Angels had to be defeated first - I think Gendo says as much after Kawaru was killed.
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Jul 24, 2014 04:24
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Milky Moor posted:Unit-01 is the only NERV Eva that actually matters. But, whhhhhhhyyyyyy?
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Jul 24, 2014 04:33
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Facepalm Ranger posted:But, whhhhhhhyyyyyy? Because it was made differently from the other Evangelions and was made directly from Lilith. That is why it is "Test Type"
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Jul 24, 2014 04:37
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ImpAtom posted:Because it was made differently from the other Evangelions and was made directly from Lilith. That is why it is "Test Type" Now I remember! Thank you for jogging my memory!
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Jul 24, 2014 04:45
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Facepalm Ranger posted:Kensuke Aida's English voice is perfect Kensuke is a total audience insert. He takes pictures of Asuka and sells them. He thinks being a pilot is the coolest thing in the world, despite experiencing how horrible it is firsthand. He's jealous of Shinji for being a pilot and living with a hot babe, ignoring literally every other aspect of that situation. He's a giant spergy military otaku. He watches the entire series from behind the lens of a camera. DrPop posted:What were SEELE's goals in directing the JSSDF to attack NERV HQ? Obviously kill the Children and anyone involved with NERV, but then what? Were they trying to take Adam back from Gendo, to then initiate Instrumentality under their own terms? What would the purpose of the Evas then be? They seem to still want to have all souls be jammed up together, and don't care--that much, despite their attack on NERV--by which means that's achieved (given Lorenz' seeming apathy toward getting zapped into LCL and ostensibly being aware of the fact that not everything is going as they wanted) They were trying to initiate Instrumentality, which is why the sent in the army in full force. Any and all repercussions didn't matter, because they were about to end the world. For everything else, the actual details of what they are trying to do never gets explained. We know literally nothing about SEELE's endgame and the only thing we know about Gendo's plot is that it would have ended with him and Yui together in some fashion. It seems pretty likely that Shinji's "gently caress everything" version of Instrumentality was nothing like what SEELE wanted. ImpAtom posted:Because it was made differently from the other Evangelions and was made directly from Lilith. That is why it is "Test Type" I'm pretty sure the important bit is that it has an S2 engine, making it a hybrid of Adam and Lilith. Also because Yui is stuck in there and Gendo could give zero fucks about what happens to any of the other people in the Evas.
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Jul 24, 2014 04:46
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. He's basically the goon insert for Evangelion.
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When does he do the take photos sell them thing??
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Jul 24, 2014 05:52
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Facepalm Ranger posted:When does he do the take photos sell them thing??
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Jul 24, 2014 06:02
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I'm not sure it's that episode but it's definitely when she's first introduced, there's a joke about all the boys falling in love with her before they realise what she's like.Tulul posted:Kensuke is a total audience insert. He takes pictures of Asuka and sells them. He thinks being a pilot is the coolest thing in the world, despite experiencing how horrible it is firsthand. He's jealous of Shinji for being a pilot and living with a hot babe, ignoring literally every other aspect of that situation. He's a giant spergy military otaku. He watches the entire series from behind the lens of a camera. This in particular also making him the creators' self-insert, no?
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Jul 24, 2014 13:44
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I guess I just wonder how SEELE planned to use Eva-01 (as a personal ark or otherwise) in NGE/EoE if they managed to kill Shinji. I imagine that Yui wouldn't be too pleased about being used as a tool to further the aims of the dudes who killed her son. Though maybe if SEELE had retrieved the Lance, it would have let them control Eva-01 regardless. Idk.
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Jul 24, 2014 15:15
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DrPop posted:I guess I just wonder how SEELE planned to use Eva-01 (as a personal ark or otherwise) in NGE/EoE if they managed to kill Shinji. I imagine that Yui wouldn't be too pleased about being used as a tool to further the aims of the dudes who killed her son. Consider that Eva-01 is crucified and dragged into the sky by the Mass Production Evas... but then their faces suddenly mutate into Rei's, they release their grip, and are caught up in what looks like religious ecstasy.
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Jul 24, 2014 16:45
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So wait, Unit 01 has Yui's soul in it and Asuka's Eva had her mom's soul in it, right? Who's souls are powering the other Evas? Do they not actually need souls? And man, thinking about Gendo being a jackass a bit more, I realized Evangelion is just begging to be poo poo on for being misogynistic. It's a common enough topic in the Gundam fandom but I see very little of it for NGE in spite of the fact 3 of the women are largely defined by sex. One of them was so thoroughly brainwashed and manipulated by a man that her....personality....brain thing let him murder her daughter. The part of her "as a woman" did this I take it....yeah that's not going to go anywhere good. Captain_Person posted:The dub is worth watching just for Spike Spencer's commentary over the credits of the final episode. This was indeed the Best Thing. http://youtu.be/4hzjuf686oA?t=1m43s It's nice to know even the people who made the show were just as bewildered and upset as I was by the ending. Spectral posted:I like Asuka's English voice actor a lot. Her delivery in episode 22 hits a lot harder than her Japanese counterpart. Although partly that's to do with some changes to the script, which make Asuka seem a lot more hostile. For example they change Asuka's final rant to make it more pointed ("... and I hate YOU Shinji..."). In the original version she sounds more despairing and only mentions Rei by name. She was definitely one of my favorites as well. I also really liked Kaji's voice actor. For years and years before I watched Eva I heard about Shinji, Asuka, Rei and Gendo and I think a bit about Misato but the "ggeneral talks" I found here and there on the intrnet never went into Kaji or Fuyutsuki and they both turned out to be two of my favorite characters.
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Jul 25, 2014 04:10
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NikkolasKing posted:So wait, Unit 01 has Yui's soul in it and Asuka's Eva had her mom's soul in it, right? Who's souls are powering the other Evas? Do they not actually need souls?. Unit 00 is Rei. The EVA series are probably Shinji's classmates.
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Jul 25, 2014 04:14
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NikkolasKing posted:So wait, Unit 01 has Yui's soul in it and Asuka's Eva had her mom's soul in it, right? Who's souls are powering the other Evas? Do they not actually need souls? Eva-00 is debatable although it may have Rei I's. Eva-03 most likely has Touji's mother inside of it in the original series. That is why he was the chosen pilot. Shinji's entire class is a pool of potential Eva pilots. They all have dead mothers and that means that each one probably has a parent on soul-file in NERV somewhere. No word on who was shoved into Evangelion Unit 4 though although Kensuke gets it in video games. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 04:14
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Wait wasn't Ritsuko's mom on Eva 00, the reason why it went batshit when Rei first piloted it.
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Jul 25, 2014 04:32
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Ka0 posted:Wait wasn't Ritsuko's mom on Eva 00, the reason why it went batshit when Rei first piloted it. No, Ritsuko's mom is in the Magi. Eva 00 is probably Lilith.
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Jul 25, 2014 04:44
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Ka0 posted:Wait wasn't Ritsuko's mom on Eva 00, the reason why it went batshit when Rei first piloted it. The general theory is that it is the original Rei who Ritsuko's mom killed in a fit of jealousy over Gendo. (Eva 00 goes berserk and mistakes Ritsuko for her mom). It's super creepy to think that Rei is essentially interfacing with herself, or the "mother" of the Rei clones.
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Jul 25, 2014 04:46
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Not creepy, just immensely interesting. Imagine acting as an avatar to your own conscience.
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Jul 25, 2014 04:49
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Also it should be noted that none of this may apply to Rebuild where there's a significant implication that none of the Evas have souls in them except maybe Eva-01 (and even Eva-01 doesn't act the same way as it does in the original show.)
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Jul 25, 2014 05:00
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hope and vaseline posted:The general theory is that it is the original Rei who Ritsuko's mom killed in a fit of jealousy over Gendo. (Eva 00 goes berserk and mistakes Ritsuko for her mom). It's super creepy to think that Rei is essentially interfacing with herself, or the "mother" of the Rei clones. The trouble with this theory is that later Ritsuko specifically says that there was only one soul in Lilith's Chamber of Guf when they opened it, and that one soul is Rei's. Of course Asuka's mother technically survived division of her soul (at least briefly) so who knows. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 05:16
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ImpAtom posted:Also it should be noted that none of this may apply to Rebuild where there's a significant implication that none of the Evas have souls in them except maybe Eva-01 (and even Eva-01 doesn't act the same way as it does in the original show.) That's, in my opinion, the suckiest thing about the rebuilds making them more generic roboty.
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Jul 25, 2014 06:05
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NikkolasKing posted:One of them was so thoroughly brainwashed and manipulated by a man that her....personality....brain thing let him murder her daughter. The part of her "as a woman" did this I take it....yeah that's not going to go anywhere good.
It failed because Ritsuko admired Naoko-as-scientist and sought approval from Naoko-as-mother but disdained Naoko-as-woman. Naoko's romantic needs, and the relationships resulting from them, diminished her in Ritsuko's eyes. Ritsuko never sought to understand this aspect of her mother and she despised the same aspect of herself. Just as her mother trifurcated her mind, Ritsuko seeks to compartmentalize her relationships: she has her pet cats for emotional comfort, Misato and Kaji for reminiscence, Gendo for physical pleasure, Maya for parental pride. But we never see her turn to any of these people in moments of pain or weakness, confiding her doubts and asking for support. She's dealing with trillion-dollar budgets and fate-of-humanity decisions, but her only visible mechanism for coping with stress is nicotine. She seems jealous of the people around her who can form strong bonds, but she doesn't admit this to them. She sees herself as "ruined" but devotes all of her attention to the parts of her life that aren't actually broken (career, science, leadership). She assumes that she can make her problems go away by ignoring them to death. When she's kidnapped, stripped naked, and interrogated by SEELE, she insists that she feels no humiliation. She consistently refuses to treat herself as a complete person. Therefore -- She never bothered to install a backdoor for Casper's latent "I love Gendo" tendency because thinking about that subject is unpleasant for her. She didn't simply cut Casper out of the decision-making loop before issuing the self-destruct command, because it was too uncomfortably similar to her own motives for confronting Gendo (and for her prior destruction of the Dummy System). The scene isn't so much about Naoko-Gendo (which is admittedly a very abusive and hosed-up relationship) but moreso about Naoko-Ritsuko and Ritsuko-Ritsuko.
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Jul 25, 2014 06:09
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Ka0 posted:Not creepy, just immensely interesting. Imagine acting as an avatar to your own conscience. ... Don't I do that every day?
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Jul 25, 2014 06:34
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That's a great post and I'm in no position to argue NGE's plot or characters in any great detail. What you said makes perfect sense but I was mostly just making a half-joking commentary on how one could easily lob allegations of sexism at NGE's writing. Quite frankly, what I find most puzzling about Gendo and the "fandom view" of him is that it's always Shinji-centric. He mistreated Shinji, how much did he love Shinji, these are the things most commonly brought up when people argue about how good or bad he was, or if he was a straight up villain or not. Nobody seems to dwell on the other lives he ruined. What's more, unlike with Shinji, he expressed s no remorse for any of them. True, Naoko and Ritsuko are adults which makes them a bit more culpable than a teenage boy and they also did more horrible things than Shinji ever did But it seems pretty clear to me they both went more or less crazy thanks to Gendo's manipulation. Naoko stranglign Rei, to me, had less to do with jealousy and more to do with the fact lil Rei had repeated what Gendo sai dabout thinking Naoko was an old hag. Basically Naoko "snapped" then and there because her comfortable illusion that the man she loved returned her feelings were instantly crushed and revealed to be more or less the opposite. He probably hated her. A poster elsewhere said whicH NGE charactes you particularly like or dislike depends on which ones you can most readily identify with. I might honestly be able to more readily see myself in Gendo if he hadn't used his position to hurt other women. His love for Yui was his great motivation and I understand that perfectly. But "Love" was also the weapon that he wielded it against several people in one way or another.
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Jul 25, 2014 06:36
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NikkolasKing posted:But "Love" was also the weapon that he wielded it against several people in one way or another.
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Jul 25, 2014 07:55
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ImpAtom posted:Eva-00 is debatable although it may have Rei I's.
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Jul 25, 2014 11:52
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Nate RFB posted:I've always been on board this theory in general, but it is kind of weird since isn't Rei's soul supposed to be Lilith? Or rather she is the vessel for Lilith's soul. So whatever Rei I left behind would've been...well I don't know, actually. The most likely answer, based on the show, manga and movie, is that Rei does have Lilith's soul but that is not her soul. Evangelions seem to function under a similar principal where they have their own souls but synchronize with another begin inside of them for greater effectiveness. It's possible for Rei to be both her own individual being and house the soul of Lilith as well. Ritsuko says that the Rei clones don't have souls but there's a pretty real chance she's speaking out of personal bias, especially considering that we've got fairly good evidence that Rei I's soul is the one inside of Eva-00. When Shinji tries to test-pilot Eva-00, it's Rei whose 'impressions' he picks up in his mind. (And the script specifically states that it is Rei I, not Rei II.) Likewise, in Episode 23, Rei talks about the "me inside the Eva." The alternate choice is that it's just a part of her soul and Rei's bizarre mishmash Lilith soul is split up between the Evangelion and her body until both are destroyed and reunited in Rei III. This might also explain why Rei I acts so drat differently from Rei II. If her soul got torn into pieces and the vindictive human part of her was shoved into the Eva, it'd make sense that Rei II is what is left, basically the parallel to Asuka's mom. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 12:21
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So I'm sorry for the bombardment of questions but this is something I've received multiple answers to when looking up other Eva discussions. How much truth is there to the "Yui was the evil mastermind all along" belief? Some say Gendo was only ever her puppet and others say his death in EOE proves that she maybe disapproved of all the poo poo he had done. Was she complicit in Instrumentality and all that apocalypse stuff?
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Jul 25, 2014 15:53
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NikkolasKing posted:So I'm sorry for the bombardment of questions but this is something I've received multiple answers to when looking up other Eva discussions. Gendo wasn't Yui's puppet. It's more that the two of them are both terrible at communication (sensing a theme, here?) and are working at cross purposes at many crucial moments in the story. Yui unquestionably knew that Third Impact was coming and had her own plan for it, distinct from SEELE's (Fuyutsuki says as much in a conversation with her in a flashback) and from Gendo's (Rei tears Gendo's hand off and defies his wishes when he tries to start his version of Instrumentality.) But according to her, she just wanted to make her son happy and leave eternal proof that mankind existed even if we go extinct. I wrote a big post a while back where I argued that Yui isn't evil or even insane, just unreasonably pessimistic. She hid in Unit-01 to escape from SEELE and interfered with their plans only slightly until the last minute, and she didn't even try to prevent the apocalypse, just to soften the blow. By contrast Gendo is willing to play eleven-dimensional chess with the men who rule the world and almost wins, his only downfall being that he was too blind to realize the woman he supposedly loves and who he hijacked the apocalypse to be with doesn't want what he wants.
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Jul 25, 2014 16:19
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So how does everyone want their own damned version of Instrumentality? I just know everyone turns to goo and I guess their souls or minds or something all combine maybe? How does Gendo want a version of this, SEELE want a version of this and Yui want a version of this? It seems like it would all be the same thing. Also while she wasn't exactly aiding the apocalypse like Gendo was, she wasn't impeding it either. Doesn't that kinda make her bad? Anyway, finished Rebuild 2. It kinda feels like a Shinji x Rei fic, especially with that ending. I recall hearing a lot of people back when this movie first came out saying "it completely misses the point of the original series." I guess I can kinda see that with Shinji's whole "I WILL SAVE REI!!!!!!" moment. The funny thing is that Shinji had his heroic moments in the original but none of them felt as....heroic? Or badass? Yeah, I guess that's it. He saved the day sure but he never felt particularly badass while he was doing it. Rebuild Shinji there at the end was definitely a bit more like something out a conventional robot show. Or even just a conventional shounen anime. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 22:08
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Watch Rebuild 3.
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Jul 25, 2014 22:11
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NikkolasKing posted:So how does everyone want their own damned version of Instrumentality? I just know everyone turns to goo and I guess their souls or minds or something all combine maybe? How does Gendo want a version of this, SEELE want a version of this and Yui want a version of this? It seems like it would all be the same thing. It's more about the motives and the specifics. It helps if you don't consider it an objectively bad apocalypse, even if it's horrific that such a thing is being orchestrated. Gendo wants it so he can be with his wife again by any means, which likely includes collateral damage. He doesn't get what wants in the end. SEELE want to get tang everyone in the world, including themselves so they can use the Evas as individual Arks so they come out on the other end as gods and the plebs are a collective puddle. In EoE, as Keel liquifies, he concedes that this is fine too (as far as he knows, Shinji decides later). Yui knew about SEELE's plan and wanted to be a means to throw a spanner into the works by enabling her son to choose, and ultimately allow everyone the choice to remain in instrumentality or to reembody.
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Jul 25, 2014 22:45
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NikkolasKing posted:Anyway, finished Rebuild 2. It kinda feels like a Shinji x Rei fic, especially with that ending. I recall hearing a lot of people back when this movie first came out saying "it completely misses the point of the original series." I guess I can kinda see that with Shinji's whole "I WILL SAVE REI!!!!!!" moment. The funny thing is that Shinji had his heroic moments in the original but none of them felt as....heroic? Or badass? Yeah, I guess that's it. He saved the day sure but he never felt particularly badass while he was doing it. Rebuild Shinji there at the end was definitely a bit more like something out a conventional robot show. Or even just a conventional shounen anime. Rebuild 3.0 is entirely about that and how incongruous it is.
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Jul 25, 2014 22:55
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ImpAtom posted:Rebuild 3.0 is entirely about that and how incongruous it is. Rebuild 3.0 basically can be summed up as being, Shinji made a choice, things dont pan out as well as he thought they would, welcome to life. This is the Evangelion way.
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Jul 26, 2014 00:25
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Facepalm Ranger posted:That's, in my opinion, the suckiest thing about the rebuilds making them more generic roboty. It is what everyone has wanted since the end of evangelion, more pew pew pew and less photo collages.
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Jul 26, 2014 01:06
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Ka0 posted:It is what everyone has wanted since the end of evangelion, more pew pew pew and less photo collages. They should watch the Zone of the Enders: Idolo movie and call it a day, then. Here is the ending (I think the full movie is also on Youtube) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZv07Fv8408
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Jul 26, 2014 03:19
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Szmitten posted:It's more about the motives and the specifics. It helps if you don't consider it an objectively bad apocalypse, even if it's horrific that such a thing is being orchestrated. So wait, did Gendo not know Yui's soul was in Unit 01? I was talking about this on another board and someone said only Fuyutsuki knew about what she did to herself. Their interpretation was that Fuyutsuki hated Gendo and let Gendo continue his scheme to be reunited with Yui knowing it would all be in vain because Yui's soul was in the robot. As for Rebuild, I have to wait for whenever Rebuild 3 is released on DVD or Blu-Ray here so I can see it dubbed. In the meantime, I still have Eva on the brain. I'm probably gonna buy the first 3 volumes of the manga next week when I have some money. It's only $13 on Viz's site. Anyway, to keep my ever-wandering attention span on Eva related things, are there any character people here like more in "alternate continuities?" I guess a popular theory based on 3.0 is that Rebuild is actually the same continuity as the original series (?) but forget those details. Do you guys like any Rebuild incarnations more or less than the original? Speaking of the manga, I know a lot of people dislike its version of Gendo. EDIT: Maybe while I wait to get paid I'll re-watch the TV series and see if I can remember more of it this time.... Regardless of what I thought of the show, I'm too much of a perfectionist to enjoy having all these holes in my memory and having to ask so many questions about things. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 11:29
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NikkolasKing posted:So wait, did Gendo not know Yui's soul was in Unit 01? I was talking about this on another board and someone said only Fuyutsuki knew about what she did to herself. Their interpretation was that Fuyutsuki hated Gendo and let Gendo continue his scheme to be reunited with Yui knowing it would all be in vain because Yui's soul was in the robot. He definitely knows she's in there. That's why he's always talking to Eva-01, or when they tried to send it out with a dummy plug and it wouldn't go and he's saying "Why are you refusing me, Yui?"
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Jul 26, 2014 13:19
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Hm, you're right. I misunderstood what they said. Their point wasn't that Gendo didn't know Yui was in there but rather that he didn't know why she was in there. Only Fuyutsuki knew it was her plan all along to get stuck in the robot and Gendo just thought it was an accident. That's kinda bitchy....
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Jul 26, 2014 21:27
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I don't think it's that she never told him. I think it's that Gendo didn't want to hear it.
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Jul 26, 2014 21:33
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Gendo seriously didn't care. That's one of Gendo's problems kind of. He really and wholeheartedly loved Yui but he was kind of selfish and a dick and if faced with a choice between "no Yui" and "Yui + the Apocalypse," he chooses the latter 10 times out of 10.
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Jul 27, 2014 06:40
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