rejutka posted:I reckon we could get mileage out Catelyn Stark is Lyanna Stark! Catelyn is Lyanna, but she is also secretly a merling that changed her identity with the help of her faceless man training to avoid being killed by Robert after the revelation that she was a secret Blackfyre Targaryean which is what inspired Rhaegar to kidnap her and father Jon Snow, but when she died in childbirth she warged into the Direwolf mother killed by the Stag at the beginning of the series, proving that Ghost is Lightbringer and Jon is the Prince that was Promised (because Ned PROMISED Lyanna, you see). Also, Benjen is the Night's King. Just because.
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Aug 1, 2014 16:06
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e:  ^^rejutka posted:I reckon we could get mileage out Catelyn Stark is Lyanna Stark!
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Aug 1, 2014 16:09
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"But you may call me... LYANNA STONEHEART ...TARGARYEN!"
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Aug 1, 2014 16:10
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I have only ever loved your sister; Lyanna "Catelyn" Stark-Targaryen-Tully-Hampton-Edgars-Garibaldi-Stark.
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Aug 1, 2014 16:22
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:I have only ever loved your sister; Lyanna "Catelyn" Stark-Targaryen-Tully-Hampton-Edgars-Garibaldi-Stark. Lyanna "Catelyn" Stark-Targaryen-Tully-Hampton-Edgars-Garibaldi-Stark-Crabb, of the Red-Apple Fossoways.
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Aug 1, 2014 16:24
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A cadet branch of the Sackville-Bagginses.
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Aug 1, 2014 16:25
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:I have only ever loved your sister; Lyanna "Catelyn" Stark-Targaryen-Tully-Hampton-Edgars-Garibaldi-Stark. i just rewatched this and I'm happy now Bran is going to warg into a tree, see Ned saying "Jon's mother is Lyanna..." and then get yanked out of his dream before Ned can say who the father is, and he's just gonna be all like "...ewww" and not tell anyone.
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Aug 1, 2014 16:27
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I am pretty sure that everyone has been theorized to be a SECRET TARGARYEN at this point, at least, every major/important character it seems. My favorite was when someone pointed to the vision/dream Jamie has of his mother at the end of AFFC as evidence that Aerys was actually Jamie and Cersei's father, not Tywin, because when she said that men dream of what they don't have, and that Tywin dreamed his son would be a brave night and his daughter a beautiful queen and that nobody would every laugh at them - and Jamie insists that this was true - and she just cries. People that actually read that scene and think, "Oh! This means that they're not really Tywin's kids!" are the ones who ruin it for the rest of us, really. It's like, that one dream sequence is spelling out the entire greater point of the Lannister family arc in AFFC in huge, block letters about twenty-feet high in the most obvious and opaque manner possible, and people still don't get it. As to the Jon Snow stuff, I do think it's absolutely true that if Jon comes out of this experience he is going to be significantly changed; after all, being treacherously murdered by people you thought of as your sworn brothers and comrade is a pretty huge trauma, I would have to think. Don't think you come out of that without your basic sense of trust dramatically shaken, and Jon Snow is/was a rather trusting individual. I have been reading too many silly theories lately. My favorite one was this "Grand Northern Conspiracy" one that I actually sort of bought into, because the principle is that every northern house is essentially a Stark loyalist by the end of ADWD and has turned on the Boltons/Freys, even the unlikely ones such as the widow Barbrey Dustin. It helps explain some things, like why Lady Dustin wanted to go into the Stark tombs (to corroborate the story Wex told to Manderly, which no doubt made the rounds via gossip between all the big houses at Winterfell) and it would seem the story was corroborated, by her astutely pointing out each and every instant of a missing sword, evidence of "squatters". Some other parts of the theory I didn't buy so much. One thing I'd like some opinions on is the following segment from one of the late ADWD Jon chapters: quote:... He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn," the bird said, and, "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow." That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall. Eerie part of the book. Are we assuming this is Bran or Bloodraven trying to obliquely tell Jon something? That was my thought, of course, but it takes place quite a long time after the final Bran chapter where he is warging into ravens. It even takes place hundreds of pages after we get Theon hearing (presumably Bran) calling his name in the Godswood at Winterfell.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:52
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I took that to be the irony of Cersei being physically beautiful and being such in a very literal sense while in every other respect not being beautiful in the slightest, and Jaime being brave in battle and about basically nothing else.
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Aug 2, 2014 00:44
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GNC is ~aight as crazy GRRM conspiracy theories go, since it is an easy one to accept conditionally. We know the Manderlys, Glovers and Mormonts are up to something, so it's not that unreasonable to go "well, maybe some of these other people are in on it too" without having to assume that all the minor background actions of House Nobody are some kinda big intricate narrative clues. And to go "Well, they're desperate for Stark leadership, so mebbe they would accept Jon," pare out stuff like all the riverlords being involved and it's just a minor elaboration on what's presented in the books already. Huis Clos is probably the height of ridiculous theorizing because the dude reads way too much into everything without even drawing any conclusions. quote:Ser Bartimus' tales might support the notion that the old gods might control the weather. Here is what happened after slavers had taken the Wolf's Den. they were cold they huddled over their fire because that is what people do when it is cold we don't need to read into this
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Aug 2, 2014 00:45
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actually the irony is that both of them are universally reviled and cersei is a lovely queen and jaime was a lovely knight before, and is now incapable of doing the fighty part of being a knight now that hes less of a poo poo head
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Aug 2, 2014 00:47
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jsoh posted:actually the irony is that both of them are universally reviled and cersei is a lovely queen and jaime was a lovely knight before, and is now incapable of doing the fighty part of being a knight now that hes less of a poo poo head Yeah, exactly. The further irony is that Tywin grew up utterly ashamed of his own father (Tytos) being weak-willed, easily dominated, and the laughingstock of the entirety of Lannisport especially after his wife died. There is quite a bit about how much Tywin deeply mistrusted laughter and absolutely despised being laughed at himself. Tywin was absolutely obsessed with legacy, and trying to insure that the reputation of his family was fearsome and unimpeachable; that nobody would dare laugh at him or any of his family. As his dead wife's shade said, "... He dreamed that they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that noone would ever laugh at them." I honestly think that'e the key part here, not whether Jamie was a KNIGHT or Cersei was a QUEEN, Tywin wanted respectability and for his children to command both power and absolute fear an obedience, the way that he did. And yes, the joke is that Jamie and Cersei are (and always will be, no matter what happens) the entire and permanent laughingstock of the entire kingdom. House Lannister was going to survive because of Kevan, but Cersei endured the ultimate humiliation that Tywin would view as a thousand times worse than her death, and while she is still a "Queen", she is now officially "Queen oval office", as proclaimed by a Flea Bottom resident, till her last sad breath. And of course Jamie is probably now viewed as the worst and most dishonorable knight in all of Westeros now that The Mountain is dead, and knows it - he uses it to his advantage, even, knowing that he can't fight and must rely on his wits and reputation as the Kingslayer - ironic, considering the man he's become, but the whole realm still laughs at him behind his back and views him as pondscum.
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Aug 2, 2014 09:59
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Can someone post that giant wall of food descriptions? I need it for research.
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Aug 2, 2014 16:01
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PupsOfWar posted:GNC is ~aight as crazy GRRM conspiracy theories go, since it is an easy one to accept conditionally. GNC is pretty believable and makes a lot of sense. "All/most of the northern houses are conspiring to destroy the traitor that betrayed their beloved king" seems pretty well supported by the books so far. I would be more surprised if it wasn't true (even including riverlord participation).
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Aug 2, 2014 16:53
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kaworu posted:
another bit irony as far as Tywin's legacy goes is that his kids are so hosed up that they have even ruined the more functional parts of the extended Lannister clan (aka Kevan's Kroo) Kevan gets murdered after being brought in to clean up Cersei's messes (after trying as hard as possible not to get involved). Kevan's eldest son and heir, Lancel, renounces his inheritance and joins a religious order because of all the traumatic bullshit Cersei put him through. One of Kevan's other sons gets killed in the war that Joffrey/Cersei/Jaime started. His remaining son is probably (?) the heir to the Westerlands if Cersei is found guilty, and will not last long in that capacity at the rate things are going. Tywin and Kevan's nephew by one of their missing brothers gets killed in that riot, which, again, is Joffrey/Cersei's fault. Even Gemma loses her two sons in Joff's war. So it's not just that Tywin's kids are laughingstocks, it's that they've caused the whole Lannister family to go from being one of the more secure and extensive great families to being in these precarious straits, where they're in danger of extinction and could be supplanted by one of their lesser cadet branches or vassal houses. At this point I think there might be fewer Casterly Rock Lannisters left than there are Starks. PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Aug 2, 2014 |
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Aug 2, 2014 17:07
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I don't understand what GNC has to do with this series. Is Jon Snow going to pick up some Greens+ to stave off scurvy at the Wall? Will Sam Tarly be stuffing his pockets with MyoFlex bars? Are the Maesters switching from Milk of the Poppy to MuscleMilk? I don't understand this poo poo at all.
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Aug 2, 2014 17:31
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Reading my way through AFFC right now. Does anything truly import happen in Samwell Tarly's chapters, or can I just skip the sad fat gently caress? I am bored out of my mind reading about Aemon dying, Gilly crying, and him beinhg unsure of what to do (Punching the gently caress out of Daeron was barely cathartic). Cersei's chapters on the other hand are enjoyable to read for all the politics and how much she's loving things up, it's just tragic she's going to bring down so many decent or less terrible characters with her tantrums and lack of foresight.
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Aug 2, 2014 19:11
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Sam's last chapter or two make it clear his story is at the very least going to make an impact. It cuts off right when you get to the interesting part though.Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Is Jon Snow going to pick up some Greens+ to stave off scurvy at the Wall? Will Sam Tarly be stuffing his pockets with MyoFlex bars? Are the Maesters switching from Milk of the Poppy to MuscleMilk? Yes.
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Aug 2, 2014 19:50
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Reading my way through AFFC right now. Does anything truly import happen in Samwell Tarly's chapters, or can I just skip the sad fat gently caress? I am bored out of my mind reading about Aemon dying, Gilly crying, and him beinhg unsure of what to do (Punching the gently caress out of Daeron was barely cathartic). A couple of them have some (seemingly) important foreshadowing and implications. mastajake posted:It cuts off right when you get to the interesting part though. Sounds like ADWD.
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Aug 2, 2014 19:52
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AFFC and ADWD get a lot of flak for being slow but I really enjoyed how things slowed down a bit and we just spent time with the characters. This part of the story is roughly the "middle" and kind of functions as the eye of the storm. We went through hell to get to this point and it's kind of calm for a while before we head back into the crazy poo poo. At least I hope so, this analogy only works if the next
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Aug 2, 2014 22:41
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Colonel Whitey posted:AFFC and ADWD get a lot of flak for being slow but I really enjoyed how things slowed down a bit and we just spent time with the characters. This part of the story is roughly the "middle" and kind of functions as the eye of the storm. We went through hell to get to this point and it's kind of calm for a while before we head back into the crazy poo poo. At least I hope so, this analogy only works if the next I agree, but when he spends 15 years writting 2 books that were supposed to be one and his solution to the big Meeerrrreeeeneeeessseeee Knot was to have none of the characters interact and for Dany to fly away on a dragon it is a bit annoying.
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Aug 2, 2014 23:06
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I'm about halfway through AFFC/ADWD right now (using the Boiled Leather reading order) and it hasn't been nearly as bad as you guys made it out to be. There's the occasional "where do whores go" for sure, and not a ton is happening, but it's still a decent read. Maybe it helps to be flipping back and forth all the time so I never get too bored of a character before I don't read about them again for a while.
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Aug 2, 2014 23:16
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Solice Kirsk posted:I agree, but when he spends 15 years writting 2 books that were supposed to be one and his solution to the big Meeerrrreeeeneeeessseeee Knot was to have none of the characters interact and for Dany to fly away on a dragon it is a bit annoying. To me the length of time it takes him to write is irrelevant. I don't think the Meereenese Knot is unraveled or solved; Dany may just end up deciding that trying to rule there and abolish slavery in a day was a bad idea and move on to her real purpose. I thought what happened was a good way for her to come to that realization. And what do you mean the characters didn't interact? Lots of characters interacted.
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Aug 2, 2014 23:23
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The Berzerker posted:I'm about halfway through AFFC/ADWD right now (using the Boiled Leather reading order) and it hasn't been nearly as bad as you guys made it out to be. There's the occasional "where do whores go" for sure, and not a ton is happening, but it's still a decent read. Maybe it helps to be flipping back and forth all the time so I never get too bored of a character before I don't read about them again for a while. You're sort of answering your own complaint here. Yeah, you're reading it in an improved reading order. That's your first red flag, and it begs the question: why weren't these books better editted the first time 'round. Also, you're reading them all at once rather than enjoying the long wait most people had to endure. Most of the frustration comes from the meta-problems existing outside the books themselves--like GRRM being an absolute fucker.
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Aug 2, 2014 23:24
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Even the improved order doesn't solve the fact that nothing was loving wrapped up in a narrative sense at all. It's just one giant cliff hanger.
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Aug 2, 2014 23:36
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Colonel Whitey posted:To me the length of time it takes him to write is irrelevant. I don't think the Meereenese Knot is unraveled or solved; Dany may just end up deciding that trying to rule there and abolish slavery in a day was a bad idea and move on to her real purpose. I thought what happened was a good way for her to come to that realization. And what do you mean the characters didn't interact? Lots of characters interacted. Most people read them separately. I don't think they are very satisfying with the improved order but they are very loving dire reading them the way they were released.
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Aug 2, 2014 23:40
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CharlestheHammer posted:Most people read them separately. I don't think they are very satisfying with the improved order but they are very loving dire reading them the way they were released. I read them in release order and enjoyed them pretty well.
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Aug 3, 2014 00:22
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Colonel Whitey posted:I read them in release order and enjoyed them pretty well. Obviously that is not true for everyone.
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Aug 3, 2014 00:41
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CharlestheHammer posted:Obviously that is not true for everyone. I understand that. You're not really replying to anything I said in my post though.
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Aug 3, 2014 00:47
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Colonel Whitey posted:I understand that. You're not really replying to anything I said in my post though. I actually meant to quote The Berzerker. To the point, I have no issue with nothing really important happening, but nothing happening for two straight books, one of which jumps backwards in time somewhat to add more nothing of important happening, it gets grating. Especially considering how long these books tends to be. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Aug 3, 2014 |
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Aug 3, 2014 00:51
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Blind Sally posted:You're sort of answering your own complaint here. Yeah, you're reading it in an improved reading order. That's your first red flag, and it begs the question: why weren't these books better editted the first time 'round. Also, you're reading them all at once rather than enjoying the long wait most people had to endure. Most of the frustration comes from the meta-problems existing outside the books themselves--like GRRM being an absolute fucker. I'm not complaining about anything... both of your points are valid and I'm not arguing those. There's just a lot of hyperbole in this thread of "GOD all Tyrion ever says is where do whores go" (etc.) and because of that, my expectations were pretty low and so I've been pleasantly surprised.
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Aug 3, 2014 02:23
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Hyperbole is funny.
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Aug 3, 2014 02:52
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He really does say "where do whores go?" an awful lot too.
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Aug 3, 2014 03:03
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aaaaannd thrum goes the crossbow.
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Aug 3, 2014 03:10
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visceril posted:aaaaannd
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Aug 3, 2014 03:52
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Oh, I like AFFC/ADWD, it just annoyed me how the apparent climax that ADWD was building toward wasn't in the book. It would be like if The Empire Strikes Back ended just as Luke was heading to Cloud City.
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Aug 3, 2014 05:30
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Fhate posted:Oh, I like AFFC/ADWD, it just annoyed me how the apparent climax that ADWD was building toward wasn't in the book. It would be like if The Empire Strikes Back ended just as Luke was heading to Cloud City. This is really my only gripe with those books too. He just let the story grow as he wrote, not accounting for the originally intended climax and then being forced to postpone it to the next book. That was a misstep but one I can forgive.
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Aug 3, 2014 06:23
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CPFortest posted:I don't know where I read this, maybe here on SA, but someone said that the reason why Books 4 and 5 were of lesser quality is due to both books focusing more on the series' metaplot, through Book 4 being essentially a thousand page holding pattern for most of the characters that aren't relevant to the Night's Watch or Essos just meandering about, and Book 5 being solely concerned with Jon and Dany's stories and showing how other characters need to get further involved in them. no. books 4/5 suck because GRRM wrote them himself. As everyone knows, GRRM - after a lifetime of being a poorly known borderline-pedo sci fi writer, managed to sell his soul to the devil. ( personally I expect it was the Wild Cards scene where Dr. Tachyon is turned into a 16 year old girl and then raped by his own nephew that brought him to old Nick's attention.. but I digress ) In exchange for his sad little soul, he was to write the epic dark fantasy trilogy of a generation. He would become the "American Tolkien". But the twist is that GRRM - instead of finish the story in 3 books and living on in history - pridefully tried to stretch the story out. You can see how well that has worked out. He has written 1 book since then, ( afoc/adwd ) without the Devil's help and it is a travesty. Think about all the great moments of the original trilogy .. ned dying / red wedding / jaime's hand + redemption as a character / Lady Stoneheart! All in the first 3 books! Can you think of a single exciting moment from afoc/adwd that you just "can't wait" for the show watchers to see? Get those cameras ready for the "Tyrion rides a pig" reaction videos! And before you say "Arya's assassin training" he's already said that he wrote that poo poo along time ago - I'm guessing while the first 3 books were being written. Anyway - like all deals with the devil, you never get what you really wanted. GRRM got his fame, but his story will be finished by a loving team of TV writers on HBO.
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Aug 3, 2014 11:13
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frey pies and arya playing sansa in the in universe play about the first three books are pretty cool things.
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Aug 3, 2014 11:34
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mastajake posted:Sam's last chapter or two make it clear his story is at the very least going to make an impact. It cuts off right when you get to the interesting part though. ASoIaF: It cuts off right when you get to the interesting part, though.
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Aug 3, 2014 13:02
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