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They're random silhouettes compared to how fleshed out the whole Touji event is in the manga. In comparison. But fair enough, like I said I've got nostalgia bias probably.ImpAtom posted:The Eva-03 thing happens because Shinji is unwilling to take action and that is important because it is basically the out-of-Eva Shinji getting in the way of the in-Eva Shinji because his friend is in the machine. This leads to the scene where the Eva without Shinji's control is let loose. Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Aug 8, 2014 06:50
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I always thought the characters in general feel more fleshed out in the manga but the characters in the anime carry the show's themes better. Honestly Kaji's backstory, Asuka's origin and Hikari's last scene as a whole don't really matter to Evangelion as a finished product as much, say, episodes 25, 26 plus the original EoE ending do. The manga is kind of fanservicey, yes, but it is not any worse than anything Rebuild 2.0 did. The big difference is that the manga has a horrible ending while Rebuild 2.0 leads into 3.0.
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Aug 8, 2014 07:03
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Well, I can understand why people would like it, but not why someone would like it in Evanglion, basically. Shinji is interesting because of his passivity and fear and timid aspects, especially when put in conjunction with the aggressiveness he shows inside of an Evangelion. Shinji freaking out and making threats inside the Eva until they have to boil the LCL to control him, in comparison to his timid behavior outside of it, is an interesting and important character point leading up to the upcoming events. Shinji making a decision to return and take action at that point his a huge thing for him. It is devalued and weakened if he is willing to be aggressive and attack Gendo beforehand. The Eva-03 thing happens because Shinji is unwilling to take action and that is important because it is basically the out-of-Eva Shinji getting in the way of the in-Eva Shinji because his friend is in the machine. This leads to the scene where the Eva without Shinji's control is let loose. Shinji being crazy angry in the Eva and then sullen and retreating outside of it is more fitting for everything that comes after. I mean I enjoy SRW and that is full to the brim of scenes where Shinji tells Gendo to gently caress off or drops an Evangelion on him or whatever. Those scenes are fun in the context of the game entirely because it is intentionally subverting the themes and concepts in favor of... well, fanservice, which is sort of SRW's reason for existing. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Aug 8, 2014 07:06
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If you're saying you consider the Evangelion manga to be on the level of SRW, then you just really bummed out this guy:
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Aug 8, 2014 07:11
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TheFallenEvincar posted:If you're saying you consider the Evangelion manga to be on the level of SRW, then you just really bummed out this guy: I think after a certain point it gets to that level, yes. The manga ran for so long that elements of other material began to seep in which is why it has the goofy errata weapons from the toys and the later chapters and ending basically are something that exists in a universe influenced by the anime and its fanbase. It may have started before the show did but I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim it didn't get influenced by the show as it went on. The ending in particular is very obvious wish fulfillment for Evangelion fans. Rebuild, in comparison, feels less like fanfiction despite being wildly divergent because it sticks to the themes and ideas despite being actively antagonistic towards the fans who specifically wanted Shinji to do something super-heroic and awesome and be a badass. It's why Rebuild 2.0's ending annoyed me until Rebuild 3.0 and why Rebuild 3.0 annoyed so many people who liked 2.0's ending. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Aug 8, 2014 07:13
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GimmickMan posted:I always thought the characters in general feel more fleshed out in the manga but the characters in the anime carry the show's themes better. Honestly Kaji's backstory, Asuka's origin and Hikari's last scene as a whole don't really matter to Evangelion as a finished product as much, say, episodes 25, 26 plus the original EoE ending do. I hated 3.0 at first because it felt like a dick move. Now I love it because it is a dick move.
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Aug 8, 2014 07:15
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ImpAtom posted:The manga ran for so long that elements of other material began to seep in which is why it has the goofy errata weapons from the toys
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Aug 8, 2014 07:18
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TheFallenEvincar posted:Wait...huh??? Which ones were those?  This, for example. It was designed for the video game and model kits. Kaworu uses it while piloting Eva-02 in the manga.
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Aug 8, 2014 07:21
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ImpAtom posted:
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Aug 8, 2014 07:22
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GimmickMan posted:I always thought the characters in general feel more fleshed out in the manga but the characters in the anime carry the show's themes better. Honestly Kaji's backstory, Asuka's origin and Hikari's last scene as a whole don't really matter to Evangelion as a finished product as much, say, episodes 25, 26 plus the original EoE ending do. Okay I'll win back my "Eva Cred" by saying I preferred Anime Kaji's equivalent of "you gotta go back out there and fight" speech. Manga Kaji had a good backstory yes and I like that but his "you don't deserve to be happy, Shinji" line was bullshit. You cannot equate you selling out your brother so you can live or Misato being shipped off to safety while her father died with what Shinji did with Toji. Yes, Shinji's lack of action didn't help but it's still not anywhere near the same. Hell, Misato didn't even do anything wrong when compared to the two of them. I'm not blaming little Kaji for what he did - I like his backsory precisely because it's the first real gimpse we got of the hell normal people were in post-Second Impact. But that line to Shinji was just...really dickish.
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Aug 8, 2014 07:23
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MonsieurChoc posted:I hated 3.0 at first because it felt like a dick move. Now I love it because it is a dick move. This is why I thought that the fanservicey bits improved the manga, because having more points of light would have made the crushing despair of Evangelion's ending so much more deliciously bitter. Otherwise you're just beating a dead horse and we already had that in the anime. We don't need the exact same story told twice in different mediums. It just sucks that the story we got was rear end.
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Aug 8, 2014 07:23
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TheFallenEvincar posted:Is that really such a big example of fanservice though? I didn't even know about it, maybe as a more casual fan. It's just there for like, one random quick page and it's proved to be totally ineffective. It's not like, a plot point or very memorable... It is because it's really silly and out of place. The Evangelion weaponry is, by and large, fairly grounded in the original show. Rifles, a sniper rifle, the knives and I think Asuka uses an axe and a spear once, neither of which are meaningfully useful. It really drives home that these things are, despite being eldrich god-beasts, also bound and armed by man and treated like military weapons. The toys and video games give them a wide range of completely goofy poo poo because why not? It's fun when they have Thunder Break or a giant katana or, yes, a progressive chainsaw. It's all silly and fun but was specifically kept out of the show to emphasize a specific tone. Having Kaworu show up with a goddamn chainsaw (even an ineffective one) is weird. It's not like hugely terrible or ruinous or anything, it's just an example of how the manga was a bit more interested in pandering to fans than it was in telling its own story.
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Aug 8, 2014 07:35
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Fair enough, I just didn't find the totally ineffective chainsaw (I can imagine NERV's research wing making some stupid poo poo like that) that much goofier than the giant axe or shoulder spikes or weird future guns/hyperpowered sniper rifle I guess.
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Aug 8, 2014 07:55
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ImpAtom posted:Rebuild, in comparison, feels less like fanfiction despite being wildly divergent because it sticks to the themes and ideas despite being actively antagonistic towards the fans who specifically wanted Shinji to do something super-heroic and awesome and be a badass. It's why Rebuild 2.0's ending annoyed me until Rebuild 3.0 and why Rebuild 3.0 annoyed so many people who liked 2.0's ending.
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Aug 8, 2014 11:37
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Nate RFB posted:Rebuild 3.0 felt to me like it was made by a fan who really liked just the Asuka vs. Eva Series battle from EoE and wanted to make a whole film about shallow Evangelion action set pieces, and that's the main reason I don't care for it. The stuff with Shinji was fine even if the first 30 minutes felt really forced and kind of haphazardly constructed/storyboarded. The action scenes in 3.0 are at the start and end of the film. The entire middle of it is nothing but action-less Shinji. Characterizing it as wanting nothing but empty action sequences feels a little weird to me, especially because there are only two major ones (discounting the cold open which is like 7 minutes total) and they both serve distinct plot purposes. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Aug 8, 2014 11:52
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I think you're underestimating how long they are, "start" and "end" in this context basically corresponds to 2/3 of the film. It's like they took episode 24 but couldn't really figure out a way to make it film length and thus had to pad it with lots of explosions.
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Aug 8, 2014 11:57
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Nate RFB posted:I think you're underestimating how long they are, "start" and "end" in this context basically corresponds to 2/3 of the film. It's like they took episode 24 but couldn't really figure out a way to make it film length and thus had to pad it with lots of explosions. The first action scene is ~7 minutes long. The second is around 15 minutes long. The last is around 20 minutes long. That's including all the non-combat stuff that happens during the scenes. In total they run about 45 minutes or 1/2 the running length, which is a lot, but characterization and plot also occurs during them and I'm counting not just the actual fighting basically 'start of sequence" to "end of sequence." As far as action scenes go, the first is in fact honestly worthless and basically exists so they could have stuff to put in the trailer to gently caress with the audience but the other two serve plot purposes. They probably could have been trimmed (especially the last one) but they're not fighting for no reason. Edit: That said, I wasn't that big on the action scenes in 3.0. I get what they were going for with making everything semi-godlike but I liked them a lot less, and I'm certainly not looking forward to the next movie's ridiculous Kamen Rider W Eva. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Aug 8, 2014 12:02
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The fight where Misato and company activate Wunder establishes an important tonal change in the series. I mean, it's not even subtle about it, they literally call it The Ship of Hope. It's especially interesting that it's powered by Unit-01, as well, even though Unit-01 is seemingly empty; it implies a passing of the torch from Yui to Misato and Asuka, which is a connection that didn't even exist in any meaningful sense in the original series.
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Aug 8, 2014 12:59
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The fight where Misato and company activate Wunder establishes an important tonal change in the series. I mean, it's not even subtle about it, they literally call it The Ship of Hope.
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Aug 8, 2014 13:08
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A lot of Rebuild 3.0 feels messy. The character introductions are rushed but the action sequences drag on and on. The soundtrack is full of epic battle themes that are clumsily played back-to-back for the final action scene. The transition from Kaworu's death to a shot of Mari's bouncing boobs stands out as one of the most bizarre transitions in any animated movie (although in general the fanservice is much more subdued than 2.0).
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Aug 8, 2014 16:39
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The best scene in 3.0 is the piano scene. 
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Aug 8, 2014 16:42
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Here's my fan remake of EoE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBlQZyTF_LY
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Aug 8, 2014 16:42
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The thing that bugged me about the Dummy Plug/Unit 03 fight in the original series was that it seems like Shinji could have, I don't know, kicked it's rear end and pulled the entry plug out of it to save the pilot before demolishing the Eva itself. It isn't like the Dummy Plug's berserker pulverizing of the other Eva put it at any less risk of also being infected or anything.
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Aug 8, 2014 16:53
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Wade Wilson posted:The thing that bugged me about the Dummy Plug/Unit 03 fight in the original series was that it seems like Shinji could have, I don't know, kicked it's rear end and pulled the entry plug out of it to save the pilot before demolishing the Eva itself. Well, yeah, that was kind of the point, if Shinji had actually acted instead of going 'noooo there's someone in there' and forcing them to use the dummy system, things would probably have worked out a lot better, but Shinji's gonna Shinji.
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Aug 8, 2014 21:33
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Rebuild 3 might have been a mess, but it was a ridiculously pretty mess and I enjoyed the nightmare hellscape a huge chunk of the movie happens in.
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Aug 9, 2014 00:18
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TheFallenEvincar posted:Weeeeell, I totally made this argument earlier, and I'm on Nikk's side as horrifying as a realization as that is for me (just kidding). I don't know if you've read the manga or not, but the impact of Touji's death really is a thousand times more powerful. The scene just works. You can't properly judge the scene out of context anyway, it needs to be read naturally reading the manga. Maybe he's not Anime Shinji, but he's definitely a Shinji.
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Aug 9, 2014 00:37
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TheFallenEvincar posted:ALSO: Oh yeah, forgot to mention this earlier. LOLOL Holy poo poo the manga is trash, way to completely gently caress up Kaworu's character.
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Aug 9, 2014 01:10
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Sakurazuka posted:Well, yeah, that was kind of the point, if Shinji had actually acted instead of going 'noooo there's someone in there' and forcing them to use the dummy system, things would probably have worked out a lot better, but Shinji's gonna Shinji.
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Aug 9, 2014 01:15
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Yup, that 'probably' should have been maybe. It could have ended just as badly, and considering how well Shinji taking initiative and actually doing something usually works out, maybe what really happened was the best that could be hoped for. 
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Aug 9, 2014 01:19
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Nate RFB posted:I think there was a certain level of expectation that attacking Unit 03 meant killing the pilot inside. Most of the other Angels loving exploded when they got killed even. Even if that weren't the case Shinji being Shinji probably meant he didn't have the confidence to pull it off anyway. Kinda wish Kaworu exploded now. Rebuild 3.33 excluded
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Aug 9, 2014 01:20
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 I think we know how Eva 4.0 is going to end.
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Aug 9, 2014 01:29
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ImpAtom posted:
It all turns out to be a hallucination of Anno playing an Eva pachinko machine?
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Aug 9, 2014 02:00
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Do Pachnko players actually care about the way the machine is decodrated?
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Aug 9, 2014 02:03
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I imagine about at much as people who play fruit machines care that they're themed around Deal or No Deal or Coronation Street or something ie. not really as long as it pays out occasionally.
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Aug 9, 2014 02:07
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TheFallenEvincar posted:Honestly the manga delivers a lot of the emotional blows a lot more impact and has more room for detail and storytelling. I don't really think it goes off the rails completely until that final ending. It's just another telling of Evangelion, one skewed less Anno-dominant but still from an important creative part of Evangelion and still pretty fun in a Rebuild-esque retelling sort of read. I agree with the storytelling being better in the manga. It feels more...streamlined or continuous while I felt a lot of events in the anime just "happened" and then the plot moved on and forgot about them. Kaji being killed for example. Did anybody besides Misato know or care? In the manga where it just happened, Shinji and Asuka are both still thinking about it. I don't think Shinji did ever go back and water Kaji's garden.... And man, Shinji punching (or trying to punch) Gendo is nothing to this.  Even if it was all a hallucination. That was a weird couple of chapters since one Yui was doing the evil ghost thing of "join us" and then Shinji said that wasn't Yui and saw "the real Yui" who was nice. Also Ghost Yui boobs everywhere. Finally getting to the Crazy Akagi Hour though. I've been waiting on this since the whole "the Magi are my mom's Motherhood, Womanhood and Scientisthood" plot element was introduced fairly early on in the anime I believe but has been totally ignored by the manga. I wondered if the manga was gonna feature Naoko at all but judging by Ritsuko's looking at her picture and then almost killing Rei, I think that should all be coming up fairly soon. I think Mom and Daughter Akagi are the two great victims of Gendo Ikari no one seems to care about as he's always judged just by what he did to Shinji. Kaworu shows up in Volume 9 which I will be starting sometime later. I'm excited. I initially swore off the manga because I heard he strangled a kitten and was known as Evil Manga Kaworu. I thought it missed the point of the character to portray him in such a way. But I've thoroughly enjoyed myself up to this point and Volume 8 was probably the best yet so I'm gonna continue ahead and give Sadamoto the benefit of the doubt to do one of my favorite characters justice, even if he's characterized differently. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Aug 9, 2014 |
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Aug 9, 2014 09:49
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It astounds me how interested you are in the Eva as a whole, yet you seem to miss a lot of what the anime shows.NikkolasKing posted:I agree with the storytelling being better in the manga. It feels more...streamlined or continuous while I felt a lot of events in the anime just "happened" and then the plot moved on and forgot about them. Kaji being killed for example. Did anybody besides Misato know or care? In the manga where it just happened, Shinji and Asuka are both still thinking about it. In the episode where Kaji dies, Misato is visibly crushed by the news while Shinji is more ashamed of himself for not being able to comfort Misato. It is because Shinji realizes he still has to grow up. That is what he is troubled with. Whose to say if he does care about Kaji's death. He probably did care but was too busy sulking over his own shame because that is what Shinji does. As for Asuka, she definitely cares that Kaji died. In ep 24(err...the DC), the beginning shows a part where Asuka is in the bath after disappearing. There is a part where she remembers an argument she had with Shinji which was her not accepting the news that Kaji is "gone" while Shinji insists on it. She is obviously in some form of denial. She cared. jetpackhewy fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Aug 9, 2014 |
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Aug 9, 2014 11:06
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I watched the anime through only once and it was the end of last year. I already confessed I forgot a lot of it and I do plan to re-watch it after I am done with the manga. Well, Volume 13 of the manga anyway. That's close enough to the end and I'm not waiting to re-watch the anime until end of November. By then it'll be a full year since I watched Eva the first time. Or almost...I think i watchedit in December...I remember I watched it when I first moved to Texas so it might even have been last October. In any event I clearly did miss a lot or simply forgot a lot and I want to fix that. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 11:18 on Aug 9, 2014 |
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Aug 9, 2014 11:15
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Oh, well alright then. If that is what you want to do, then go for it. Hopefully it's better the second time around.
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Aug 9, 2014 11:34
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Honestly Evangelion is just an incredibly dense show, I must have watched the whole thing 6 or 7 times by now and I'm pretty sure I've noticed something new every time.
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Aug 9, 2014 13:41
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Sakurazuka posted:Honestly Evangelion is just an incredibly dense show, I must have watched the whole thing 6 or 7 times by now and I'm pretty sure I've noticed something new every time. This. I've watched the whole series about four or five times, give or take some episodes. Back in the age of VHS, I watched what I could and I watched it a lot.
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Aug 9, 2014 16:16
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