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Spiritus Nox posted:It seems a bit much to ask a person to extrapolate all the way from "it can walk under its own power" to "it can gently caress up the planet so bad that it grows a giant toothy mouth-shaped-canyon with which to scream." Yes, but you ignored the AT fields thing there. They have the power to manifest human will as a barrier of immense strength as well as other things. The full nature of the disaster is unforeseeable but there are plenty of other things that could have gone disastrously wrong. Tuxedo Catfish posted:The difference is Shinji sets his sights even lower; he's given up on heroism and just wants to save one person. His despair has to set in faster than it did in the series because in the series hitting rock bottom is the finale of the show, while in Rebuild it's just a transformative moment leading up to whatever happens in 3+1. But that scene in the show isn't Shinji setting his sights low. It is him raising himself up. Its failure is certain a big despairing moment but it is also followed by him pulling himself together. (If, to admittedly, be shot down again even harder later on.) There's a tremendous difference between how the two are portrayed. Even the act of saving Shinji afterwards is very different. Tuxedo Catfish posted:More like very few anime 14-year-olds act like 14-year-olds, but again, you just got through saying a moment ago that Shinji does. (And if you go back on that, I'll still say it, because it's a large part of what makes the series work.) Shinji acts like a 14 year old but the plot does not treat him like one and that is fairly important. He isn't alone here, because the transformative growth into adulthood is a pretty important factor for stories of those ages and very few will actually treat or expect the audience to treat a character as they would an actual 14 year old. Sympathy and empathy for their youth and inexperience and important, of course, but not the legal legal-and-mental viewpoints that would be applied to an actual 14 year old. Paracelsus posted:Please elaborate on what exactly he did and what consequences of it were foreseeable. Damaging the terrain of the Geo-Front is the sort of thing you'd expect from going after an Angel. Maybe some loss of life as collateral damage, but given that the person he's trying to save is one of a handful of people who can actually defend the planet I'd call that an acceptable risk. But if the argument is "Evangelions are dangerous and capable of unknown and seemingly impossible things, so Shinji assumed the risk of whatever happened," then there's nothing about the Zeruel fight that's actually special; that's the same risk he took every single time he got in the plug. Shinji achieved godlike power and chose to use it to try to save Rei Ayanami, not because she was an Evangelion pilot or anything like that but because of his own desires mixed with his own guilt. At no point after he decided to pilot did he acknowledge or care about anyone but Rei except to reject them. Unlike in the series, Shinji is aware when the Evangelion goes into its godlike form. He is conscious and speaking and states his wants and desires clearly. This is not a case of it being a usual battle that just happened to cause Third Impact. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 23:01
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ImpAtom posted:Evangelions are weapons who have demonstrated immense power before. They can project AT fields and do seemingly impossible things including move on their own. Even if the worst possible outcome is not envisionable it doesn't mean they can't be aware of serious consequences. Here's the thing. Shinji is absolutely responsible for 3rd impact in a causal "do step 1, do step 2, impact" way. The problem is that you're conflating causal responsibility with moral responsibility. The causal process is pretty much "fight angels, save friends, ?*, world ends", where ?* is a bunch of crazy mystical bullshit that even the adults/manipulators barely understand. There is all kinds of deeply nested metaphysical craziness in those Evas but Shinji is trained to treat it like a giant robot he uses to protect people. He might know that there are "consequences" to his actions in the sense that he might be changed as a person or some people might be hurt, but there's simply know way he could know that his choices would cause a mystical event to destroy the world. As a result, the narrative of 2.0 and 3.0, to me, is twofold. One part is that we can make choices in the hope of a good intention, even if there are immediate consequences that might be bad. The second is that sometimes, even when we feel like we've accurately weighed the consequences of our decisions, our choices can lead to wild and unpredictable outcomes that we couldn't have guessed at. To go back to your gun analogy, it's like if Shinji pointed a gun at someone and planned to kill them because it would save his friend, but when he pulled the trigger it instantly killed everyone in the world. He will naturally feel guilt (and responsibility) for the choice, because he had resolved himself to do a bad thing in order to accomplish something good, but then the actual consequence is so incomprehensible and out of proportion with the expected outcome that he is made to feel not only like he is responsible for the earth's demise, but that his choices don't actually matter. Did shooting the gun blow up the world? Did it happen because I saved my friend? Or was it just random and there was no hope? Now, in 3.0, he's told that maybe there's a way he can undo this choice. It's still not really clear that the 3rd impact is actually a result of his choices, but all his mixed up feelings of guilt make him feel like it's all his fault no matter what. As a result, he's super easy for Gendo to railroad into doing exactly what's needed to start another impact. Basically, I think you're oversimplifying the themes of the move by trying to assign some kind of absolute culpability for the events to anybody. The resonating message is that the world is often hosed and arbitrary and you can make things worse by taking on every bad event as your own personal cross and trying to "fix" all the wrongs you perceive as your fault. The way out, and the thing that would be a true change for Shinji and growth for his character, is to realize that the blame for past events doesn't necessarily matter. The world is more complicated than that. Instead of spending all your time trying to (not) redo, you should instead recognize that there were choices you could have made differently and try to apply that knowledge to the future. Shinji was trying to go back in time and kill Hitler (  ), when he should have been simply trying to avoid the mistakes that led to WWII. Shinji up until 3.0 has no agency because all of his actions are attempts to correct past actions, or doing nothing in the hopes of not making mistakes. Hopefully Shinji will begin to gain agency by taking actions that are purely about building a better future instead of erasing the past.
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Sep 16, 2014 23:12
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ImpAtom posted:But that scene in the show isn't Shinji setting his sights low. It is him raising himself up. Its failure is certain a big despairing moment but it is also followed by him pulling himself together. (If, to admittedly, be shot down again even harder later on.) I don't see how this refutes what I said. That Shinji (somewhat) recovers emotionally from the Zeruel fight in the show and is comparatively devastated by it in Rebuild is an example of what I was talking about; his downward spiral happens faster and more dramatically. 2.0 fits the Zeruel fight chronologically but borrows imagery from EoE (and precedes the 14-year time gap) because it corresponds to both, effectively replacing and accelerating the back half of the show (minus the Kaworu stuff that got punted forward). He starts from lower and falls further, because simply repeating his trajectory from EoE wouldn't be much of a statement. But the moments of hope in Rebuild are more significant than the ones in the TV series because they exist in EoE's shadow; "things could turn out okay" isn't a revolutionary statement by itself but it is when the last series ended with the apocalypse.
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Sep 16, 2014 23:13
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Imp, your reasoning here is giving off really creepy emotional abuser vibes. He's a traumatized child with loving depression. No human with basic empathy should be remotely as invested in blaming him as you seem to be.
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Sep 16, 2014 23:29
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ManOfTheYear posted:I watched Evangelion a bit when it started to air in the early 2000s here in Finland when I was a ten-year old kid. What the gently caress is this show about? I could have terribly well told about what DBZ was about when I was ten, but this? What's happening? Why? How? Everything is horribly depressing and confusing. I read the OP and the first couple of pages, but that didn't clear much up. So there's aliens, clones and religion involved? I don't remember that at all from back then. the lore isnt that important compared to everyone being broken human beings
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Sep 16, 2014 23:35
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An Angry Bug posted:Imp, your reasoning here is giving off really creepy emotional abuser vibes. He's a traumatized child with loving depression. No human with basic empathy should be remotely as invested in blaming him as you seem to be. Eh, he's also a fictional character, and I think (hope, at least) the movies are designed to provoke this exact argument.
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Sep 16, 2014 23:37
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, but you ignored the AT fields thing there. They have the power to manifest human will as a barrier of immense strength as well as other things. The full nature of the disaster is unforeseeable but there are plenty of other things that could have gone disastrously wrong. It seems a bit much to ask a person to extrapolate all the way from "it has a star-trek forcefield that enhances my giant robot's ability to punch and be punched" to "it can gently caress up the planet so bad that it grows a giant toothy mouth-shaped-canyon with which to scream." Put less snarkily, I maintain that Third Impact was many orders of magnitude more serious than anything Eva 01 had done up to that point in Rebuild - maybe orders of magnitude greater than anything it's done period, considering that it acted in conjunction with the Lance and the MP Evas and Lillith in EoE. The most bizzare thing Shinji had seen Eva-01 do was either go berserk or catch Sahaquiel - I don't think he had any grounds to fathom the possibility of anything even resembling what actually happened when he killed Zeruel. Spiritus Nox fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 23:43
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An Angry Bug posted:Imp, your reasoning here is giving off really creepy emotional abuser vibes. He's a traumatized child with loving depression. No human with basic empathy should be remotely as invested in blaming him as you seem to be. Uh, alright. If we're getting into calling me an emotional abuser for discussing an anime, I'm done with the conversation. That is loving uncalled for and you're pretty disgusting for using it to try to 'win' an argument about a goddamn anime character. The fact that I've said repeatedly that Shinji is a character designed to be empathized with and sympathized with apparently is completely meaningless apparently and all I want is to loving support the abuse of children or some ridiculous bullshit. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 23:54
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An Angry Bug posted:Imp, your reasoning here is giving off really creepy emotional abuser vibes. He's a traumatized child with loving depression. No human with basic empathy should be remotely as invested in blaming him as you seem to be. I don't think the crew of the Wunder or the audience have a good moral case to blame him; that seems to be more emotional than anything else. You'd think that the folks in-universe would have been able to work through their hostility issues sometime in the 14 years between 2.0 and 3.0, though.
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Sep 17, 2014 00:00
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Spiritus Nox posted:Put less snarkily, I maintain that Third Impact was many orders of magnitude more serious than anything Eva 01 had done up to that point in Rebuild - maybe orders of magnitude greater than anything it's done period
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Sep 17, 2014 00:01
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GulMadred posted:I agree. loving called it.
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Sep 17, 2014 00:09
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Paracelsus posted:Well, Shinji is invested in blaming himself (rightly or wrongly), which I suspect is the main point of 3.0. Yeah, the important thing to remember is that assigning an objective accounting of guilt for third impact misses the point. Whether or not Shinji is truly responsible for the death and destruction is not as important as the fact that he made a choice and blames himself for the consequences - regardless of how much of said consequences could actually be predicted - and thus the setting and characterization of 3.0 reflects this. Shinji's internalized guilt is reflected in his treatment by other characters. Who is truly "guilty" is, ultimately, immaterial. In the wake of third impact, Shinji was presented with a sequence of choices: wallow in his guilt, attempt to undo his actions, or accept the world as it is and attempt to move forward. The crew of the Wunder, who represent his self-blame, imposed the first option on him, and Kaworu offered him the second. I imagine that the ultimate path of rebuild leads to the third option, and will define the difference between Shinji and his father.
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Sep 17, 2014 00:17
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To be fair, the question of whether or not Shinji can or can't reasonably be blamed for initiating 3rd impact seems like it should kind of inform how we understand the way Shinji sees himself and the way others see/treat him in the context of the story. I agree entirely that, especially just in the context of 3.0, that Shinji blaming himself his more important to how we understand the plot, but I don't know if that's all that's worth knowing about the matter.
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Sep 17, 2014 00:18
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Isn't it pretty clear though that Shinji didn't cause all or even most of the destruction we see in 3.0?
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Sep 17, 2014 00:39
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Milky Moor posted:Isn't it pretty clear though that Shinji didn't cause all or even most of the destruction we see in 3.0? It's at least not clear to everyone who's all pissy at him after they un-TANG him.
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Sep 17, 2014 00:42
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Milky Moor posted:Isn't it pretty clear though that Shinji didn't cause all or even most of the destruction we see in 3.0? I don't think you could call it "clear" but yes I do think that there are some reasons to believe that is possible.
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Sep 17, 2014 00:45
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At bare minimum, we know there was one more Angel encounter after Third Impact with the 12th Angel and Mark.06. It's not clear how much that did but it was apparently a pretty big thing with an Angel they couldn't kill without causing some kind of disaster.
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Sep 17, 2014 00:49
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Goddamn 90 new posts thought something real had come out about 4.0. Guess I'll just have the rest of this post be about how much I love the fact that this is the very first thing you see in Rebuild 1.0 
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Sep 17, 2014 15:33
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lol this is like the best anime ever
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Sep 17, 2014 17:11
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It really is 
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Sep 17, 2014 17:12
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DrPop posted:Goddamn 90 new posts thought something real had come out about 4.0. The beginning and the end are the same; all is right with the universe.
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Sep 17, 2014 17:26
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Leroy Dennui posted:The beginning and the end are the same; all is right with the universe. The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth. http://youtu.be/9yn9RDrD3H8
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Sep 17, 2014 18:47
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DrPop posted:Goddamn 90 new posts thought something real had come out about 4.0. Sigh, 4.0 is going to be brilliant.
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Sep 18, 2014 01:03
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Foul Ole Ron posted:Sigh, 4.0 is going to be brilliant. 3.0+1.0 
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Sep 18, 2014 03:21
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DrPop posted:Goddamn 90 new posts thought something real had come out about 4.0. I'm stupid and can't parse the letters.
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Sep 18, 2014 05:53
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Weird BIAS posted:I'm stupid and can't parse the letters. I don't think it's letters at all, the point is that it's very nearly the same image that End of Evangelion concluded on.
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Sep 18, 2014 05:56
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It really does look like letters of some sort. Probably just an optical illusion, of course. I watched the Rebuild movies so far having only seen bits and pieces of the series as a kid, and I just thought the ocean of blood in the start of the first one was from a previous Angel attack or something. But I just checked the first episode of the show and saw the ocean there is blue as could be. So does the Rebuild series just literally, directly follow on from the end of EoE?
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Sep 18, 2014 06:47
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Lord Krangdar posted:It really does look like letters of some sort. Probably just an optical illusion, of course. Not directly. There's an infographic somewhere out there that lists a ton of poo poo that implies it's repeating though. edit: 
HoneyBoy fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Sep 18, 2014 |
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Sep 18, 2014 06:53
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HoneyBoy posted:Not directly. Yeah, I know that's the prevailing theory but that its usually not thought of as so direct. It's just, that opening...
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Sep 18, 2014 06:56
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Weird BIAS posted:I'm stupid and can't parse the letters. Pax Anno. Anno is at peace. Because he's blowing your loving mind.
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Sep 18, 2014 09:15
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Zeruel posted:3.0+1.0 Christ, I'm annoyed everytime I see that, it's going to be the set up for some masterful troll I just know it.
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Sep 18, 2014 10:31
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OK It's kind of blowing my mind that the MP Evas could be what they repeatedly refer to as adams vessels. It would explain their ridiculous regenerative abilities. They even have the same hole in the chest where they pierced themselves with their lances...
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Sep 18, 2014 13:39
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hope and vaseline posted:OK It's kind of blowing my mind that the MP Evas could be what they repeatedly refer to as adams vessels. It would explain their ridiculous regenerative abilities. They even have the same hole in the chest where they pierced themselves with their lances... The MP Evas also used a Kaworu-based dummy plug, making them literally "Adam's vessels." Also literally true in the case of the TV series.  VVV Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Sep 18, 2014 |
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Sep 18, 2014 13:50
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The secret meaning of Eva is they're making it up as they go along
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Sep 18, 2014 14:06
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The MP Evas also used a Kaworu-based dummy plug, making them literally "Adam's vessels." Hah, so Kaworu is an angel that houses a portion of Adam's soul. The dummy plugs are clones of Kaworu, which are in the MP Evas, and Eva 13 is a "survivor" of the Adamas, which Kaworu enters. It's like a horrible russian nesting doll.
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Sep 18, 2014 14:34
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Somebody said the children don't know what they're doing, but gently caress me if Mari doesn't seem to know secrets that even the techies at base don't, like Unit 03's zerker mode and how to pilot another person's EVA successfully to begin with. My guess is that Mari is what the world decided to do with the free Shinji and Asuka that survived NGEoE when it rebooted, as it would explain both the way above board know-how of EVAs and her appearance blending elements of both characters. Her only role in 3.0 seems to be watching battles and her only interaction with Rebuilt Shinji was slapstick stuff. Shinji's feelings toward everyone drive world events, but the person who wasn't here "last time"? Hardly know her. Here's hoping she finally does something next movie, and they tip their hand to why they'd add another pilot beyond making her Asuka's stand-in so they didn't have to explain Touji in a movie. But generally, if the kid who seems to have elevated knowledge and supernatural abilities that imply a biological link to much of the main cast seems to think things are going well, I can only figure the other forks in the road were likely more disastrous.
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Sep 18, 2014 19:09
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If Mari is anything but fan-service in the final movie then I will literally explode in existential angst. She's slowly grown to be one of my favorite characters and idk really why.
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Sep 18, 2014 20:15
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i like asuka shes the best
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Sep 18, 2014 21:39
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Amnomia posted:i like asuka shes the best one of asuka is clearly the bestest
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Sep 18, 2014 21:41
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Amnomia posted:i like asuka shes the best
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