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MasterSlowPoke posted:Also, the idea to turn Angron to Khorne was inspired by some idiot Eldar pirate who saw a vision of the future and in trying to stop it, caused it to happen. If the guy is dumb enough to be manipulated by Erebus and Kor-Phaeron in the first place because he was having a tantrum over his dad telling him he doesn't approve of his methods then yeah i can see him being stupid enough to have to be told this stuff.
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Oct 1, 2014 04:03
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Sramaker posted:If the guy is dumb enough to be manipulated by Erebus and Kor-Phaeron in the first place because he was having a tantrum over his dad telling him he doesn't approve of his methods then yeah i can see him being stupid enough to have to be told this stuff. I don't think Lorgar was manipulated by them per se. They're the ones who introduced him to Chaos, but at that point it seems like Lorgar would have jumped headfirst into any religion that showed up, and I suspect that Tzeentch if no one else would have taken advantage of Lorgar's crisis of faith even without Erebus and Kor Phaeron.
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Oct 1, 2014 05:44
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Shroud posted:Angron and his idiot savant brothers Perturabo, Lorgar, and Horus are the biggest pansies in the galaxy. Not one of them had the stones to actually confront the Emperor or ask why he made the decisions he did. Instead, they just moped around like a bunch of emo teens at a mall, until they woke up one day and decided to kill dad and their brothers. I though the Legion underwent the nails themselves to try to get closer to their Primarch? The Emperor wasn't the most accessible father and they were solar systems apart so its not like you could just call him for a chat to talk about your day.
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Oct 1, 2014 05:58
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jadebullet posted:Fresh geneseeds (can they make fresh gene seeds, I forget) would equal a wholly new legionary who would begin the start of a new line of marine heritage. The only source of totally fresh gene seed is taken from the Primarch themselves, all geneseed in (I'm pretty sure) is from the progenoid glands harvested from other marines. They're able to keep Chapters at strength because each marine can produce at least 2 sets. I can't recall if progenoids can regrow after they're harvested (I believe the neck glands tend to be taken as soon as they've matured in case the marine is lost combat). So you've got a bit of an issue that if you're being super strict in only direct passing of geneseed then any marine lost is, lost. That's the total possible number of the Chapter reduced by 1. I can see some lore reasons you could justify that and the idea of a slowly diminishing number of marines seems cool, something like an original 1,000 marines dedicating themselves to a Crusade and swearing they won't rest until it is completed. It might fit better as an Imperial Fists successor or even Dark Angels than Ultramarines though, I can't see a proper Codex chapter taking that kind of attitude. On Angron again, I can feel sorry for him and he's not without reason but he his opposition to the Emperor's project rings somewhat hollow when he's willing to go along with it for the most part. It also stems almost wholly from that first confrontation, the high handed manner he gets dragged off in. He also is flat out unwilling to accept being close to his legion, they stick the Nails in themselves to try and be closer to him and he lets them just because he doesn't really give a gently caress. It isn't until that final voyage to Nuceria that he ever allows himself to actually just be with his Legion and we get a glimpse of what he could be but by that point he's thrown in with Horus and damned himself and his Legion without even really realising it. Fulgrim has a lot of potential as a tragic fall, the background isn't a problem. I was referring to his fall in terms of what has actually been written about it, which has pretty much been he found a shiny sword, started enjoying slightly edgier art and suddenly was tricking his Captains into shoving Thunder Hammers up his backside.
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Oct 1, 2014 06:11
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MrNemo posted:The only source of totally fresh gene seed is taken from the Primarch themselves, all geneseed in (I'm pretty sure) is from the progenoid glands harvested from other marines. They're able to keep Chapters at strength because each marine can produce at least 2 sets. I can't recall if progenoids can regrow after they're harvested (I believe the neck glands tend to be taken as soon as they've matured in case the marine is lost combat). So you've got a bit of an issue that if you're being super strict in only direct passing of geneseed then any marine lost is, lost. That's the total possible number of the Chapter reduced by 1. I can see some lore reasons you could justify that and the idea of a slowly diminishing number of marines seems cool, something like an original 1,000 marines dedicating themselves to a Crusade and swearing they won't rest until it is completed. It might fit better as an Imperial Fists successor or even Dark Angels than Ultramarines though, I can't see a proper Codex chapter taking that kind of attitude. My understanding is that you only need one progenoid to make a new Space Marine, and each one ends up producing two. Since it goes in near the end of the recruit's turning into a proper Space Marine, I also assume that by the time it goes in, there's no real risk of the recruit booting it resulting in loss of the gene seed. Yeah, there are probably instances where both progenoids are lost or irreparably damaged, but theoretically each Space Marine can provide the raw materials for two, allowing for growth as long as the loss side isn't too drastic. I mean, the central plot point of Storm of Iron is that the Fists are maintaining a giant gene seed repository. The Red Corsairs also completely loot the...Marines Malevolent? gene seed repository. It seems that most Chapters maintain a replacement rate greater than the loss rate, and actively maintain stores to guard against future calamities (barring looting by Chaos  )
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Oct 1, 2014 06:28
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Each Chapter have to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus, so they can make new chapters. It's obvious that chapters can make more gene seed than they use.
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Oct 1, 2014 10:20
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Yeah but the whole lore point with his chapter is that the implanted gene seed is seen as an almost direct continuation of the marine that donated it along with implanted memories and stuff. In that case if the marine's gene seed is unrecoverable that identity gets lost with the lineage of that gene seed. Likewise if the gene seed gets rejected and the original gland has gone off for the tithe or the secondary gland was lost with the marine then that identity is gone for good. Since he said they don't do multiple copies then the options are totally fresh recruits with gene seed from somewhere else or a slowly dwindling chapter. I actually think that's quite a cool idea with a nice touch of total dedication to a mission and the whole slow march to destruction that food with Imperium in 40K
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Oct 1, 2014 11:59
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Kegslayer posted:I though the Legion underwent the nails themselves to try to get closer to their Primarch? You're right, it mentions that in one of the books, but then a couple others later imply that they were "encouraged" by Angron to implant them. Sorry I can't remember which ones. You know, I think that if it came to the point where I was seriously at the tipping point of "Killing dad is my best option and a good idea", some travel time to clear the air isn't all that big of a deal, considering.
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Oct 1, 2014 13:43
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Instead they just sulk and act like grumpy teenagers. Except for Kurze really, at least from what I can tell. Kurze is the only traitor Primarch I feel is fully deserving of sympathy since his upbringing basically broke him utterly, which is similar to guys like Angron, but he has the self-awareness to loathe his own darkness. He hates evil and cruelty but can't see any other way of accomplishing the goals set by the Emperor or humanity. Dude is a complete nihilist simply because he hates cruelty and and can't see any way to prevent it other than perpetuating it. I mean he's probably one of the greatest monsters of all of them but at least he's willing to accept that he is. Magnus comes close but I can't help but feel he gives up totally after Russ' sanction. He makes no real effort to return to Imperium or stop Horus, just chills in the Eye while pretending he's totally not going to just turn to Chaos.
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Oct 1, 2014 13:52
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Shroud posted:You're right, it mentions that in one of the books, but then a couple others later imply that they were "encouraged" by Angron to implant them. Sorry I can't remember which ones. Pretty sure he gets told to stop his Legions use of the implants, goes "OK dad fine" and then makes zero effort to stop it and instead encourages it in secret or something.
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Oct 1, 2014 15:14
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MrNemo posted:Instead they just sulk and act like grumpy teenagers. He's kind of a big stubborn baby when he refuses to admit that force and fear alone are not enough to create a functioning society, even though he fails miserably every time he implements his approach. Either that or he's supposed to be unable to understand and is unable or unwilling to learn becaues of the fatalism caused by his prescience. Like his whole "vindication" thing is basically "ha, you eventually had to use force to enforce your will" even though the whole point he's missing is that force is the last resort, not the only resort, and that normal people will do things out of propriety even without the fear of punishment. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Oct 1, 2014 |
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Oct 1, 2014 15:16
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Sandweed posted:Pretty sure he gets told to stop his Legions use of the implants, goes "OK dad fine" and then makes zero effort to stop it and instead encourages it in secret or something. Yeah due to their independent nature and the limitations of communication in that era, the Emperor actually has surprisingly limited direct control over the primarchs, especially after he leaves the Crusade to do things on earth. For instance, prior to Monarchia, it's implied that the Emperor has told the Word Bearers to stop worshiping him at least several times in various ways through various envoys, but every time they either ignore him or find ways around it like "oh his refusing to be worshiped as a god is actually further proof of his divinity, let's worship him more". He has to make a big sweeping gesture because every other less drastic method he's tried hasn't worked at all.
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Oct 1, 2014 15:22
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Cream_Filling posted:He's kind of a big stubborn baby when he refuses to admit that force and fear alone are not enough to create a functioning society, even though he fails miserably every time he implements his approach. Either that or he's supposed to be unable to understand and is unable or unwilling to learn becaues of the fatalism caused by his prescience. The vindication aspect is more Curze's story that the Emperor publicly chastised and humiliated him for his tactics and terrorizing people into obedience while secretly encouraging and appreciating him as his agent of fear and terror. Whether this is true or not is anyone's guess, given that Curze is not the most trustworthy individual. According to this story of Curze's fall and rebellion, Curze was ultimately fed up with and disgusted by the Emperor's hypocrisy, publicly reprimanding his own carefully developed tool of fear for the sake of politics, and Curze feared to some extent that the Emperor would discard him once he was no longer useful to the Imperium.
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Oct 1, 2014 16:25
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Cythereal posted:The vindication aspect is more Curze's story that the Emperor publicly chastised and humiliated him for his tactics and terrorizing people into obedience while secretly encouraging and appreciating him as his agent of fear and terror. Whether this is true or not is anyone's guess, given that Curze is not the most trustworthy individual. According to this story of Curze's fall and rebellion, Curze was ultimately fed up with and disgusted by the Emperor's hypocrisy, publicly reprimanding his own carefully developed tool of fear for the sake of politics, and Curze feared to some extent that the Emperor would discard him once he was no longer useful to the Imperium. Not really though because his whole thing is that the fact of the assassination itself vindicates him. Also the thing is that Curze is rebuked for his excessive use of force and cruelty, not simply for using fear as a weapon, but he doesn't seem to understand this distinction (either willfully or unintentionally). It's pretty clear Curze is out on his own on the galactic frontier doing his own thing with limited to no oversight, and so he is praised for the speed of his victories before the methods by which he achieves them are fully known. Until I think Dorn tattles on him (don't remember very well).
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Oct 1, 2014 16:31
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I like the parallel that both the Emperor and Kurze had their life's work turn to poo poo pretty much the moment they turned their backs. It's interesting to see that other primarchs were a bit happier in this regard: Guilliman's empire was murdered, but it didn't fail, and even the worlds that survived are still quite better off than most of the Imperium. Even Lorgar's Colchiss stayed a peaceful, prosperous little planet when he left.
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Oct 1, 2014 23:49
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Didn't Perturabo also have to cleanse his planet? At least I know he did, hadn't they also rebelled or was it more a massive overreaction kind of thing?
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Oct 2, 2014 01:18
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MrNemo posted:Didn't Perturabo also have to cleanse his planet? At least I know he did, hadn't they also rebelled or was it more a massive overreaction kind of thing? They did rebel, yep. Perturabo left his foster father behind to rule Olympia, and he was a huge rear end in a top hat who decided he didn't want to be subject to the Imperium anymore. It all went downhill from there.
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Oct 2, 2014 02:13
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Cythereal posted:They did rebel, yep. Perturabo left his foster father behind to rule Olympia, and he was a huge rear end in a top hat who decided he didn't want to be subject to the Imperium anymore. It all went downhill from there. Pretty much all Traitor primarch planets had fallen to poo poo even before the Primarchs turned.
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Oct 2, 2014 02:34
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Angron's character development stops because he is a wreck of a human being; the nails were implanted in his adolescence and more or less stopped any sort of emotional development in its tracks. To me, at least, it's what makes him sympathetic-- he knows that he has tremendous power, but also that there is something fundamentally wrong with him and that he can't really come to grips with it or fix it.
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Oct 2, 2014 03:07
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pentyne posted:Pretty much all Traitor primarch planets had fallen to poo poo even before the Primarchs turned. Eh. Prospero and Colchis were perfectly fine. Nuceria really wasn't bad by 40k standards. We don't know anything about what Chemos, Barbarus, or Cthonia were like during the Great Crusade, and before they were bleak and desolate but not very remarkable. Nostramo and Olympia are the only two traitor primarch worlds that we know went to poo poo before the Heresy.
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Oct 2, 2014 06:50
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Everyone had a little demon friend on Prospero, that's not a great sign.
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Oct 2, 2014 16:24
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MasterSlowPoke posted:Everyone had a little demon friend on Prospero, that's not a great sign. That was only the Thousand Sons. From what we see of Prospero itself and the Prosperans, they're almost universally low-level psykers but seem innocuous enough. The psyker-remembrancer lady's Prosperan girlfriend even saves the day for them getting off-planet before the Space Wolves hit.
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Oct 2, 2014 17:19
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MasterSlowPoke posted:Everyone had a little demon friend on Prospero, that's not a great sign. Yeah I'm assuming this is the line between "sorcery" versus just regular psykering plus whatever the Space Wolves do.
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Oct 2, 2014 20:35
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Cythereal posted:That was only the Thousand Sons. From what we see of Prospero itself and the Prosperans, they're almost universally low-level psykers but seem innocuous enough. The psyker-remembrancer lady's Prosperan girlfriend even saves the day for them getting off-planet before the Space Wolves hit. I can't imagine a more dangerous world than a world full of unsanctioned psykers.
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Oct 2, 2014 22:12
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MasterSlowPoke posted:I can't imagine a more dangerous world than a world full of unsanctioned psykers. Sanctioned versus unsanctioned psykers wasn't really a thing in 30k. Prospero was by all accounts a pretty good place to live until the Wolves came - psychic powers were what kept humanity alive on Prospero, and the planet had no notable Chaos problems until the Thousand Sons came along, and even then things were seemingly under control until the Wolves came and the Thousand Sons got desperate. Prospero Burns notes that all the psyker horror was unleashed by the Thousand Sons, the civilians and Imperial Army forces on Prospero seemingly didn't use psychic powers at all.
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Oct 2, 2014 23:05
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MasterSlowPoke posted:Everyone had a little demon friend on Prospero, that's not a great sign. Hey man psykers gonna psyke.
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Oct 3, 2014 00:12
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Cythereal posted:Sanctioned versus unsanctioned psykers wasn't really a thing in 30k. Prospero was by all accounts a pretty good place to live until the Wolves came - psychic powers were what kept humanity alive on Prospero, and the planet had no notable Chaos problems until the Thousand Sons came along, and even then things were seemingly under control until the Wolves came and the Thousand Sons got desperate. Prospero Burns notes that all the psyker horror was unleashed by the Thousand Sons, the civilians and Imperial Army forces on Prospero seemingly didn't use psychic powers at all. The civies probably got the ax even then i bet. Which strikes me as ironic, considering what the wolves would do to preserve the lives of "chaos tainted" guardsmen that fought in the 1st Armageddon war. I'm guessing they protected the guardsmen because the sanction came from the Inquisition. An organization the wolves dont really get along with. Kharn_The_Betrayer fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Oct 3, 2014 |
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Oct 3, 2014 01:30
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A friend bought me the Talon of Horus book, and I devoured it in 2 days. It's a very neat book, especially for a series starter. I like the point in time in which it's set, when basically the defeated Legions have forgotten the Imperium to fight and build their little empires in the Eye and have, in turn, been forgotten by the Imperium as well. I didn't even dislike the Eldar waifu, in fact. ADB likes to have brave, perceptive female characters to cut through the usual Marine honor-and-brotherhood-and-vengeance stuff. There was Octavia, Lotara, Inquisitor Jarlsdottir, and this time the die fell in such a way that we got a xenos murderess. It mostly adds to how desperate Iskandar is for any meaningful bond, and what he will do to preserve one once it appears. The supporting cast was good as well. Lheor is funny without being a caricature (nice that someone remembers that World Eaters have heavy weapon specialists too!), Telemachon has good antagonist potential, and the Word Bearer prophet was an interesting cypher. There wasn't much room to develop them much, but then again, this is a start. Uzas and Cyrion didn't really get much depth in the first book of the Night Lords trilogy either. Now for the spoiler bits. I liked how he set up the conflicts of the future. Ashur's obsession with prophecy and his own diminishing talents, and Nefertari hinting that at some point he will have to go. The Anamnesis changing and becoming an aggressive entity that, like her brother, has come back to life under Ezekyle's vision. The hive-mind daemon that is dispersed over a whole clan of Possessed. The whole Abaddon-as-a-renaissance-man bit felt weird at first. Perhaps laid on a bit too thick (armor scavenged from all nine traitor legions is a bit on the nose, plus it'd look like a painter's first color scheme test), but it actually makes sense that a transhuman warlord would take some time to learn some things and explore his options after losing everything. I'd still like to know how he sailed the Vengeful spirit to its hiding place without a crew, and how he left for his quests and travels in the Eye. His demeanor in this book reminded me of what the protagonist of the Elite Squad movie says about a drug lord: that you can be as crazy as evil as you wish in order to own a favela, but you also have to be smart or you won't be in the job for long. I also liked the overarching plan. It would have been easy and lazy to just go "Alright, Black Legion is the Sons of Horus back with a vengeance and a new top dog". Having it be a refinement of the crazy meritocracy of chaos, freed from both the Emperor and the designs of his sons, given a purpose and brotherhood, makes for a more interesting premise. My only real peeve is with Khayon's power level. Dragging a two-kilometer spaceship with his mind for months? That's enough power to simply boost enemy titans into orbit. I'd forgive it if he had just propelled it with a final, colossal push after their intended way of launching it for the attack failed, and burst every vein in his body doing so, but as they did it...yes, definitely excessive. Someone get ADB a new mug so he doesn't have to drink from Nick Kyme's anymore and get his silly germs.
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Oct 3, 2014 02:32
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:The civies probably got the ax even then i bet. Which strikes me as ironic, considering what the wolves would do to preserve the lives of "chaos tainted" guardsmen that fought in the 1st Armageddon war. I'm guessing they protected the guardsmen because the sanction came from the Inquisition. An organization the wolves dont really get along with. The short story Last Blood is about something like that. It's pretty good, that Scout poor Scout didn't have any good options. Surprisingly, Nick Kyme's Rebirth is decent. His prose needs more work, and there's too much going on, but it's interesting stuff going on. I give him a lot of credit for having his pet chapter gently caress up and lose a battle.
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Oct 3, 2014 03:33
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:The civies probably got the ax even then i bet. Which strikes me as ironic, considering what the wolves would do to preserve the lives of "chaos tainted" guardsmen that fought in the 1st Armageddon war. I'm guessing they protected the guardsmen because the sanction came from the Inquisition. An organization the wolves dont really get along with. We see post-purge Prospero in Scars. The Wolves hit the planet with cyclonic torpedoes after taking down Magnus and the Thousand Sons - the planet itself is still intact, but the only life on the surface was one loyalist Thousand Son whose ship came back to Prospero after the purge, which he knew nothing about, and who only pieced together what happened from the wreckage. He joined up with the White Scars, lacking anywhere else to go.
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Oct 3, 2014 03:39
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:The civies probably got the ax even then i bet. Which strikes me as ironic, considering what the wolves would do to preserve the lives of "chaos tainted" guardsmen that fought in the 1st Armageddon war. I'm guessing they protected the guardsmen because the sanction came from the Inquisition. An organization the wolves dont really get along with. Space Marines die to keep the citizens of the Imperium safe, the wolves bled to protect the people of Armageddon, and the guardsmen fought along side the wolves, and gave their lives to save the planet and stop the advance of chaos. Thats why, although telling the inquisition to go gently caress itself is also part of it
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Oct 3, 2014 03:45
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Waroduce posted:Space Marines die to keep the citizens of the Imperium safe, the wolves bled to protect the people of Armageddon, and the guardsmen fought along side the wolves, and gave their lives to save the planet and stop the advance of chaos. Thats why, although telling the inquisition to go gently caress itself is also part of it Still the rout didn't show any clemency to the citizens of Prospero, they where guilty of "malifecarum" by proximity to the thousand sons. It could also be a thing in which they cant take any chances. But then again different circumstances i suppose.
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Oct 3, 2014 04:02
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Cythereal posted:Sanctioned versus unsanctioned psykers wasn't really a thing in 30k. Prospero was by all accounts a pretty good place to live until the Wolves came - psychic powers were what kept humanity alive on Prospero, and the planet had no notable Chaos problems until the Thousand Sons came along, and even then things were seemingly under control until the Wolves came and the Thousand Sons got desperate. Prospero Burns notes that all the psyker horror was unleashed by the Thousand Sons, the civilians and Imperial Army forces on Prospero seemingly didn't use psychic powers at all. There were definitely black ships roaming around the galaxy collecting anyone with psychic potential. Tzeentch probably had some sort of hands off order for Prospero, so that he could get his prize of Magnus. Otherwise someone would have opened a portal to hell while trying to read someone's mind for an order at a restaurant.
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Oct 3, 2014 04:42
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MasterSlowPoke posted:There were definitely black ships roaming around the galaxy collecting anyone with psychic potential. You say that as a joke, but that last bit actually happens in A Thousand Sons. One of the psyker-remembrancers notes that one of the unique luxuries on Prospero is that restaurant staff don't have to ask you for your order.
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Oct 3, 2014 05:27
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Sephyr posted:A friend bought me the Talon of Horus book, and I devoured it in 2 days. Have you read Bernard Cornwell's Warlord trilogy? If you enjoyed Talon of Horus, you'll love it. And you'll see where ADB is pulling a lot from.
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Oct 3, 2014 07:02
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I know Dune was a source of inspiration for 40k but did anything else influence it?
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Oct 3, 2014 07:04
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Sramaker posted:I know Dune was a source of inspiration for 40k but did anything else influence it? Dune, Starship Troopers, 2000 AD (especially Judge Dredd), 80s British politics and pretty much any cyberpunk or dystopian work of fiction you care to name.
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Oct 3, 2014 08:30
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Sramaker posted:I know Dune was a source of inspiration for 40k but did anything else influence it? And the understatement of the year award goes to.... In addition to what Improbable Lobster wrote, also add Ridley Scott's Alien/Aliens, Tolkein, the usual array of Star Wars & Co. and a healthy dose of the other early miniatures companies like Ral Partha.
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Oct 3, 2014 09:55
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Sramaker posted:I know Dune was a source of inspiration for 40k but did anything else influence it? Also Foundation, a Canticle for Liebowitz, Michael Moorcock, the list goes on.
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Oct 3, 2014 11:57
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Are there any books that cover the 13th Black Crusade? I never played warhams, what like super major events took place in the game world and aren't covered by a novel? Most of them? Like my buddy told me when he played as a kid gw used to have world wide tournaments and poo poo that would significantly alter the lore and direction of the game, but they quit with the 13th Black Crusade. Is it true Chaos wiped the floor with the Imperium and gw had to retcon a bunch of poo poo and thats why they dont do it anymore? Are there any lore related podcasts? I have a long rear end drive coming up.
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Oct 3, 2014 14:54
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