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Infinite Karma posted:I don't know if it's common knowledge around here, but Amazon has Fall of Light listed as releasing in about 2 weeks. Get ready to have the world flipped upside down again... I was under the impression that it was due out either this Fall or in like a year.
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Jan 28, 2015 19:43
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acumen posted:I still don't quite get what the deal with Dragnipur and Chaos was. Did Draconus create Dragnipur to contain Chaos and at the same time, give the Tiste Andii Kurald Galain? If Dragnipur is destroyed, doesn't that mean Chaos is free to roam around again? Spoilers, obviously, even though most of this is actually covered in books 1 and 3: In the time before Holds and Warrens, when Gates wandered, Draconus created Dragnipur to keep the Gate of Darkness out of Chaos' reach. He perceived Chaos getting closer, and created a mechanism to constantly keep the Gate on the move away from it - said mechanism requiring a whole lot of souls to function. What he didn't realize at the time was that the Gate wasn't wandering, but migrating, and that his perception of Chaos getting closer was mistaken, as it was getting closer only as part of what could be interpreted in the sense of an elliptical orbit - the Gate's migration would have eventually taken it further away, then closer, then further, etc... In creating Dragnipur and locking the Gate inside, he actually made it more likely that Chaos would threaten it, not less.
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Jan 28, 2015 20:03
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Habibi posted:That's a description that applies to plenty of less annoying and more interesting characters throughout both series, but, I suppose, if you relate to spitefully annoying people with poor decision making skills, then yes. You'd be spiteful too if, as far as you knew, your sister sold you into slavery to advance her career. In a series that frequently tips way over in the other direction and has characters who are infallibly clever or correct in spite of their circumstances and emotions, Felisin is anything but annoying.
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Jan 28, 2015 20:51
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:You'd be spiteful too if, as far as you knew, your sister sold you into slavery to advance her career. Yeah I think a lot(most) of Felisin hate comes from the unsympathetic protagonist aspect. She's a tragic character, not a likeable one. Also a smart part due to some misogyny.
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Jan 28, 2015 21:17
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The same people who bag on Sansa didn't like Felisin? Color me shocked.
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Jan 28, 2015 21:29
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Whether you feel it's an appropriate moral or not, the entire point of the series is to evoke sympathy for people who lash out in pain.
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Jan 28, 2015 21:30
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e: ^^^ likewise, having sympathy for a character but not finding them particularly interesting are also not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of far more despicable characters throughout the series who are more compelling.Tuxedo Catfish posted:You'd be spiteful too if, as far as you knew, your sister sold you into slavery to advance her career. quote:In a series that frequently tips way over in the other direction and has characters who are infallibly clever or correct in spite of their circumstances and emotions, Felisin is anything but annoying. zeal posted:The same people who bag on Sansa didn't like Felisin? Color me shocked. Habibi fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jan 28, 2015 |
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Jan 28, 2015 21:30
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Rarity posted:I'm almost at the end of GotM and I understand this feeling. My version has a forward by Erikson saying 'things will not make sense for a while' so I just figured it was ok to not understand things. I kept on reading and focused on the characters and the bits that did make sense and the story slowly came together. I still don't know how Warrens work, I don't really get what the difference is between a Moranth and a Tiste Andii and a T'lan Imass but that doesn't really matter to enjoy what's going. Try not worrying about understanding everything and just roll with it. Just wanna say that these are perfectly normal things to not understand. If you want, I think these are pretty spoiler-safe: Moranth are allies of the Malazan army, indigenous to the Genabackis continent that GoTM takes place mostly on (aside from some stuff at the beginning) who wear bug armor, ride giant flying bugs and figured out how to make explosives. There are different tribes of them, named by color. Tiste Andii are physically similar to classical dark elves. In GoTM they mostly hang out in a big floating mountain fortress thing. They are associated with darkness. T'lan Imass are undead skeleton people that can dissolve into dust to move around and are have pretty ineffable motivations even to people in-universe. They are associated with fire. Warrens get more explained as the series goes on, don't worry about it. Don't worry about any of this really. I just started a friend on this series, and wasn't sure how much of a primer is useful. It's a series where looking at maps actually helps, because stuff like Seven Cities versus Genabackis took me like three books to grok. I think light explanations for peoples and locations are pretty fine most of the time, but even then there's spoiler stuff -- some peoples relate to others in surprising ways and fumbling through the puzzle pieces is one of the reasons why the books are so good to re-read.
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Jan 28, 2015 22:07
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The rule of thumb is: if it doesn't make sense by Book 10, start again. 
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Jan 28, 2015 22:09
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A number of mages in the series can't even explain their own magic system (and sometimes their own understanding is flawed), so not understanding warrens early on is almost intentional.
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Jan 28, 2015 22:14
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Habibi posted:e: ^^^ likewise, having sympathy for a character but not finding them particularly interesting are also not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of far more despicable characters throughout the series who are more compelling. Yeah, I'm not really disagreeing with you at this point. I mean I am but it's a matter of taste rather than narrative function.
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Jan 28, 2015 22:18
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:You'd be spiteful too if, as far as you knew, your sister sold you into slavery to advance her career. I agree that Felisin is tragic, but I think you're being hard on Tavore there. It was picking the only option perceived that didn't wind up with her dead.
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Jan 28, 2015 22:33
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Shockeh posted:I agree that Felisin is tragic, but I think you're being hard on Tavore there. It was picking the only option perceived that didn't wind up with her dead. I'm not judging Tavore at all; the point is that Felisin doesn't know why her sister did what she did, or the measures she took to try and protect her or soften the blow.
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Jan 28, 2015 22:38
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Oh. I agree then. 
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Jan 28, 2015 22:41
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I started reading this series far too long ago and, tonight, finally finished The Crippled God. As you can probably understand I've done my absolute best to avoid googling anything remotely Malazan related as well as this thread, meaning I have alot of theories to read up on. Bear with me as I mentally digest the ending, which I have just powered through for the better part of today. I can say right now though that I enjoyed it immensely. Worm says gently caress you!
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Jan 29, 2015 01:39
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I really want to dislike Felisin, much as I want to dislike Sansa. I just can't, though: I pity them, and therefore cannot hate. There's probably a good life lesson in there. I think one of my favorite moments in the series thus far was during Toll the Hounds when Traveller and Rake were fighting. That lady asked Karsa if he was going to do anything about it, and he was like, "gently caress no. Are you crazy? They're really good."
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Jan 29, 2015 02:34
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Ynglaur posted:I really want to dislike Felisin, much as I want to dislike Sansa. I just can't, though: I pity them, and therefore cannot hate. There's probably a good life lesson in there. Yes, Karsa admitting something to the effect that only a fool would get between those two definitely added some perspective. Felisin IS hard to dislike, for the tragedy of her character, if not her personality. That she is one of my least favorite POV characters is more a commentary on the strength of everyone else in that book (and more broadly, the series). Sansa is quite another story. Oh well.
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Jan 29, 2015 05:10
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Rarity posted:I still don't know how Warrens work, I don't really get what the difference is between a Moranth and a Tiste Andii and a T'lan Imass but that doesn't really matter to enjoy what's going. Try not worrying about understanding everything and just roll with it. I've only read the first book in the series and I know a lot about all this stuff? There is a shitload of information crammed into the book, you just can't skim over everything The book explains at least a little bit of basically everything it introduces, it's just not infodumped like a Sanderson book in plain language. (Not poo poo talking I like Sanderson too) Barely spoilers for GotM Without checking a wiki, I know that the moranth are a mysterious race of chitinous armored dwellers of the forest/mountain area west of Darujhistan that have recently formed an alliance with the Malazans for some reason unknown to them. A tenuous alliance at best, but one which has basically allowed the Malazan campaign to survive as long as it has. The Moranth's goals are mysterious, however they have provided crucial air support with their flying insect things, and they posses some forms of advanced technology the Malazans don't have in the forms of chemical explosives which has given them a huge edge. Tiste Andii are a dying powerful race not native to earth that came here from their Warren (people can live in warrens, it's like another dimension) after abandoning their mother/creator when she decided darkness isn't cool by itself I want some light damnit (yeah I don't know exactly what that means but the point is their origin is explained somewhat). I don't know exactly what their goals are besides floating around moon's spawn loving with human events. T'lan Imass are a short, undead looking race that are one of the original founding races of the world and started the first empire to ever exist. They at one point warred with the Jaghut, another founding race, and were enslaved by them as well. There is a lot here I know I'm missing that wasn't explained, but I know eventually the Imass decided to do some form of ritual that is basically like a giant suicide of their race that gave them immortality for some reason. Warrens are like pocket dimensions, places where you can draw power from. You can also use them to travel. They are dangerous to use. Things can live in warrens, and demons are creatures called/enslaved from warrens. Each elder race has their native warren. Most humans can only use one specific warren but the better you are the more warrens you can draw from. Quick ben is a badass who can use up to 7 warrens at once, for instance. I can go on but I'm getting lazy. The point is, I've only read the first book, once, and I picked up on this and a whole lot more. It might not be in plain language, but it's still there though, if you can parse Eriksons sometimes odd prose. After reading it I am kind of baffled by how many people say the book is confusing, it really isn't unless you read it with the mindset you read Sanderson or airport fiction or something. I didn't look at a wiki every 2 pages, maybe I flipped to the back of the book for reference here and there but that's it, and I feel like I learned a whole shitload about the world and wasn't really ever confused by the plot. Damo fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 06:35
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I don't think that its weird for someone to be confused by Gardens of the Moon, let alone any of the other books. Some elements are ambiguous and don't make a lot of sense until you have proper context from further reading.
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Jan 29, 2015 07:43
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That's true, I guess I was unclear in what I meant. I mainly was trying to say that Erikson touches on / explains at least some of nearly every single thing he brings up in the book to some extent. There's a lot left to wonder about, but basically everything is at least partially (if sometimes cryptically) touched on. Like, if you don't have a decent idea of who the races are or what a warren is by the time you're done with GotM you have missed a lot that was there. It's actually kind of amazing and impressive how much foundation is laid for the future. The plot itself can be a little confusing in terms of what characters motivations are, for sure. Damo fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Jan 29, 2015 |
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Jan 29, 2015 07:48
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Damo posted:Without checking a wiki, I know that the moranth are a mysterious race of chitinous armored dwellers of the forest/mountain area west of Darujhistan that have recently formed an alliance with the Malazans for some reason unknown to them. A tenuous alliance at best, but one which has basically allowed the Malazan campaign to survive as long as it has. The Moranth's goals are mysterious, however they have provided crucial air support with their flying insect things, and they posses some forms of advanced technology the Malazans don't have in the forms of chemical explosives which has given them a huge edge. The Moranth are never truly explained in the main series and only makes an appearance on Genabackis, although their ammunitions keeps getting used, especially cussers. Without saying to much, I think Erikson have a thing for big explosions and big girls. Which makes you wonder about Kilmandaros and Olar Ethil, especially in the Raskan scene in FoD. Damo posted:Tiste Andii are a dying powerful race not native to earth that came here from their Warren (people can live in warrens, it's like another dimension) after abandoning their mother/creator when she decided darkness isn't cool by itself I want some light damnit (yeah I don't know exactly what that means but the point is their origin is explained somewhat). I don't know exactly what their goals are besides floating around moon's spawn loving with human events. They have no goal and the only reason they are fighting is due to Rake trying to find a cause, which is said in the book. Damo posted:T'lan Imass are a short, undead looking race that are one of the original founding races of the world and started the first empire to ever exist. They at one point warred with the Jaghut, another founding race, and were enslaved by them as well. There is a lot here I know I'm missing that wasn't explained, but I know eventually the Imass decided to do some form of ritual that is basically like a giant suicide of their race that gave them immortality for some reason. Eh, they turned undead to fight the Jaghut and tyranny. They were not undead from the start, but ended up that way Damo posted:Warrens are like pocket dimensions, places where you can draw power from. You can also use them to travel. They are dangerous to use. Things can live in warrens, and demons are creatures called/enslaved from warrens. Each elder race has their native warren. Most humans can only use one specific warren but the better you are the more warrens you can draw from. Quick ben is a badass who can use up to 7 warrens at once, for instance. I can go on but I'm getting lazy. Warrens are mysterious, 'nuff said. Infinite Karma posted:I don't know if it's common knowledge around here, but Amazon has Fall of Light listed as releasing in about 2 weeks. Get ready to have the world flipped upside down again... Not in my scifi-store which is typically very early in this. Amazon have been wrong before.
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Jan 29, 2015 08:02
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Cardiac posted:Eh, they turned undead to fight the Jaghut and tyranny. They were not undead from the start, but ended up that way Yeah, that's what I meant when I said they underwent the ritualistic mass suicide/immortality/undead kool-aid drinking. I think it was the Imass in Kruppes dream, the one from the past before they turned immortal. He said they were soon going to meet to perform the mass ritual or whatever. It's pretty clear they weren't undead from the start. The Imass in Kruppe's dream is described as looking physically different from Tool, for example, so it's pretty clear they weren't undead lookin' from the start.
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Jan 29, 2015 08:36
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One of the things I really liked in Toll the Hounds is when Orfantal dies in exceptionally stupid circumstances when obviously the thing to do as a dragon is pick Kallor up and drop him from a huge height and then Tulas Shorn does exactly that with the Hounds of Light
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Jan 29, 2015 11:17
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mischief posted:The whole series is hard on the heart but Deadhouse Gates has a special place for me. “a dumb beast’s incomprehension at its own destruction beneath the loving hands of two heartbroken children.” Honestly made me tear up and have to put down the book for a few minutes. pepsigloworm fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 00:52
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There are so many powerful moments just lurking in the series, it's kind of impressive. Some are to the point like the above quotes and Beak while some are more long term and they get in there and sort of wear away at your soul Mappo turning from Icarium's jailor into Icarium's true friend was a lot of growth through the series sort of like Sam and Frodo in the LoTR books.
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Jan 30, 2015 05:13
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The Mappo and Icarium stuff in DG was a real high point of that book for me. I'm really gonna have to start a reread soon.
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Jan 30, 2015 05:17
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Habibi posted:Spoilers, obviously, even though most of this is actually covered in books 1 and 3: (FoD spoilers):Draconus seems to be the source of a lot of the world's problems. Creating Dragnipur was a huge mistake that had massive, far-reaching consequences, and I imagine his "gift" to Mother Dark is going to have a similarly enormous fallout in Fall of Light and beyond. It's going to be interesting to see how the timeline of the Kharkanas trilogy lines up (or doesn't) with the BotF. This re-read has made me think that GotM gives the reader more than enough information to understand what's happening; the problem is that Erikson was inexperienced when he wrote it, so the presentation of that information is kind of awkward. There are actually quite a few info-dump scenes where characters pretty much just stand around and explain the plot and back-story.
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Jan 30, 2015 06:02
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Started DoD yesterday, and I had forgotten about the Snake. Juaguocio posted:This re-read has made me think that GotM gives the reader more than enough information to understand what's happening; the problem is that Erikson was inexperienced when he wrote it, so the presentation of that information is kind of awkward. There are actually quite a few info-dump scenes where characters pretty much just stand around and explain the plot and back-story. Yeah, after finishing TCG and rereading the series, GotM got new light. I guess it says something when you need to read the end to understand the beginning. Jose posted:One of the things I really liked in Toll the Hounds is when Orfantal dies in exceptionally stupid circumstances when obviously the thing to do as a dragon is pick Kallor up and drop him from a huge height and then Tulas Shorn does exactly that with the Hounds of Light Well, Orfantal seems to have a thing for heroic deaths in FoD, so assisted suicide? Speaking of that, Korlat is not present in FoD and she is Orfantals sister? Tulas Shorn is Kagamandra Tulas, but he became Shorn i.e. same thing that happened to Trull, so that is something to look forward to in the Kharkanas series.
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Jan 30, 2015 07:47
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Cardiac posted:Started DoD yesterday, and I had forgotten about the Snake. The Snake is a perfect example of what drives me crazy about these books. I like the mystery and the puzzle aspects of the series but some things are just downright blatantly misleading/mysterious and don't get resolved for a long time. And it drives me nuts because I'm apparently incredibly impatient. For the Snake, it seemed pretty obvious that the bad tall things were the FA, and that something was funky with the way the snake operated, I just couldn't quite think of what being/beings would take that form so spoiled myself on what it actually was (it should have been obvious in retrospect) - it was driving me crazy. All the end-game exposition has been fantastic so far though and although I'm sure there's a few more twists and turns everything feels a lot clearer.
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Jan 30, 2015 12:24
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acumen posted:I'm sure there's a few more twists and turns everything feels a lot clearer. lol nope
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Jan 30, 2015 17:29
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Something I've just remembered from the main series that I've probably forgotten the explanation for again Olar Ethil is Burn right? So how does Burn's sleep work exactly?
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Jan 30, 2015 19:59
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Jose posted:Something I've just remembered from the main series that I've probably forgotten the explanation for again Olar Ethil is Burn right? So how does Burn's sleep work exactly? Olar Ethil is a huge loving liar
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Jan 30, 2015 20:21
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Jose posted:Something I've just remembered from the main series that I've probably forgotten the explanation for again Olar Ethil is Burn right? So how does Burn's sleep work exactly? Olar Ethil is a dirty rotten liar This explains a lot of weird claims in the books if I remember correctly. e: 
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Jan 30, 2015 20:22
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Fairly sure FoD disproves that theory, unless she manages to assimilate her or something later on.
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Jan 30, 2015 20:22
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Oh Snapple! posted:Olar Ethil is a huge loving liar Reiterating for the third time. It's weird to me that this keeps being asked. When she was making all those claims to Torrent, it seemed obvious even without further knowledge that she was bullshitting in an to intimidate him.
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Jan 30, 2015 22:00
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pepsigloworm posted:“a dumb beast’s incomprehension at its own destruction beneath the loving hands of two heartbroken children.” I finished re-reading it yesterday and even knowing how the book plays out it's an overwhelming finale. The re-read does shed some light on Erikson juxtaposing some legitimately bad rear end chapters but the whole Chain Of Dogs story line is just suffocating. I had a similar reaction reading it for the first time and had to take a few days off. It's funny, re-reading the book I don't know that Duiker's story doesn't bum me out more than Coltaine. And the drat dogs. Stupid book.
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Jan 30, 2015 22:43
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All of this makes sense and just makes me more curious really
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Jan 30, 2015 23:36
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Well Gardens of the Moon didn't end how I expected at all. It's weird how so many of the plotlines that were built up just ended up getting derailed by other stuff. Like the Bridgeburners plan getting derailed by the Jaghut Tyrant, which itself got derailed by some kind of plant monster?? Paran's plan to kill Lorn got derailed by a couple of women from the inn, the climax ended up being Rake vs. a dragon demon from out of nowhere? Crokus's coin barely seemed relevant. The only climaxes that really landed for me was Rallick killing Orr and Crokus/Apsalar. Everything else was a bit of a let down, to be honest
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Jan 31, 2015 00:57
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Rarity posted:Well Gardens of the Moon didn't end how I expected at all. The coin represents the pull/push of the twins, fortune and misfortune. For want of a nail et cetera writ large in small ways.
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Jan 31, 2015 01:09
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Rarity posted:Well Gardens of the Moon didn't end how I expected at all. The Bridgeburner's Plan wasn't derailed by the Tyrant, it was spoiled by the secret of the city (that it has gas flowing underneath). They were planning on destroying some intersections and causing some chaos but the nature of the city meant that their plan would have caused massive destruction and their own deaths, and they had to race against that.
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Jan 31, 2015 02:07
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