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Fojar38 posted:That's, uh, not what PPP is based on literally everything I've read. PPP is used to account for differences in expenses between countries. You can fairly easily live a relatively normal life in China with an annual income of $5000 whereas you'd be on the street and starving with the same income in the US, and PPP is meant to adjust economic data to account for those differences in prices. It's useful for measuring the difference between cost of living between individuals in different countries but it's completely meaningless when comparing the size of economies on the international stage, because international transactions need to be made using exchange rates. PPP tries to measure purchasing power. Even under a perfectly floating exchange rate system there is still going to be big differences between purchasing power and nominal exchange rates. And this could be for many reasons (i.e product is produced in one of the countries and is cheaper there due to lack of transportation costs). You are right that this doesn't account all that well for international trade, but the vast majority of both the US and Chinese economies are handled domestically.
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Apr 2, 2015 23:52
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Typo posted:Yes, obviously the best case scenario would be for your government to look like Norway or Canada or the UK's, which has both a high quality state and bureaucracy AND protection of individual rights. I'm more leading towards the question of "If the form of government does not determine the success (monetary, stability, liberal, etc) of a country but rather the 'state strength', then is there any justification for an authoritarian government?" Id wager you would agree, given the premises.
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Apr 2, 2015 23:56
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Rexicon1 posted:The ethical ramifications of actions done on a spectrum vary wildly on the extrema of that spectrum. A government saying you can't smoke in a bar is very different than a government saying that you will go to jail for speaking out against the leadership. I think a it's better to frame this as what kind of restrictions would make a society stop being considered a liberal democracy.
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Apr 2, 2015 23:57
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This whole "freedom" angle is bordering on Libertarian. Who cares about PPP when megayachts all cost the same no matter what country you are in? Real freedom is megayachts. And you can most effectively measure a country's economy by how many megayachts it has. Can we close the megayacht gap? Can we build a gigayacht?
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Apr 2, 2015 23:58
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Cerebral Bore posted:Leaving the historical inaccuracies here aside, are you seriously going to start arguing that a little repression and tyranny are OK as long as living standards improve enough for a long time? Personally, no. But, many Western leftists will, when they talk about Cuba. Many Singaporeans, South Koreans, Russians, etc. etc. will in reference to their own countries. In the case of Singapore, it arrived at a relatively fortunate end by unsavory means. Compared to its neighbors, the end is better; the means no worse. I don't believe the ends justify the means, but Singapore has an enviable level of development today.
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Apr 2, 2015 23:59
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Rexicon1 posted:I'm more leading towards the question of "If the form of government does not determine the success (monetary, stability, liberal, etc) of a country but rather the 'state strength', then is there any justification for an authoritarian government?" Id wager you would agree, given the premises. I think "state quality" is a better term for what I'm trying to say. When I say "state strength" I mean for instance, an impersonal, merit based bureaucracy rather than a nepotistic one. A bureaucracy that's more capable of implementing policies is an example of a high quality state. I don't believe that authoritarianism necessarily leads to a better quality state, it's just that I don't believe democratic ones do either. Typo fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Apr 3, 2015 |
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Apr 2, 2015 23:59
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Typo posted:PPP tries to measure purchasing power. Even under a perfectly floating exchange rate system there is still going to be big differences between purchasing power and nominal exchange rates. And this could be for many reasons (i.e product is produced in one of the countries and is cheaper there due to lack of transportation costs). That's not really true; in the year 2015 international trade is precisely what drives almost every economy. China's economy isn't based on Li from Chongqing buying a bag of locally produced rice, it's based on mass producing goods to be sent overseas and bought by Joe from Milwaukee. China's economy is almost entirely export-driven and that means that market exchange rates are the more accurate measure of economic size and strength. poo poo, if it wasn't and was instead based on consumption like in America then Beijing wouldn't need to artificially suppress its currency to make Chinese goods more competitive.
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Apr 3, 2015 00:01
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Typo posted:I think a it's better to frame this as what kind of restrictions would make a society stop being considered a liberal democracy. I feel like this is getting pedantic, we all know exactly what a liberal democracy is and what an authoritarian state is. I don't think its productive to play with the Zeno's Paradox of statehood.
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Apr 3, 2015 00:03
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Typo posted:But democracies are much much more likely to restrain the power of bad leaders just as they restrain the power of good leaders. Yes, Bush got elected, but he can't exactly carry out the Great Leap Forward either. I think it was H.L. Mencken who said that democracy would lead to American voters electing a complete moron ("what they deserve") but I think the true measure of a system of government is how it functions when run by complete morons. Ours is unfortunately not holding up very well anymore. Still we could be doing worse--imagine if we gave Ted Cruz dictatorial powers, now that would be something. Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Apr 3, 2015 |
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Apr 3, 2015 00:09
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Woolie Wool posted:I think it was H.L. Mencken who said that democracy would lead to American voters electing a complete moron ("what they deserve") but I think the true measure of a system of government is how it functions when run by complete morons. Ours is unfortunately not holding up very well anymore. One must also look at the safeguards in place to prevent a complete moron from running it in the first place. This is not typically an area where authoritarian states do very well, but neither does the US.
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Apr 3, 2015 00:13
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Malcolm XML posted:lky basically gave his citizens the deal that if they didn't complain and followed the paternalistic authoritarian rules they'd get a clean, efficient (and boring) society: and he goddamn delivered. The deal was you'd get your clean, effcient etc. life as long as you don't complain or rock the boat by, for example, being gay.
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Apr 3, 2015 00:22
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Woolie Wool posted:I think it was H.L. Mencken who said that democracy would lead to American voters electing a complete moron ("what they deserve") but I think the true measure of a system of government is how it functions when run by complete morons. Ours is unfortunately not holding up very well anymore. I think that's not because of singular bad leaders, the US, out of all political systems, gives the greatest amount of veto power to every single component within it. Something like the UK system is far more decisive, for better or worse (see the government instituting austerity in a way that would never fly in the US). The biggest symptom of the US with morons in charge isn't so much bad policies being made, it's a gridlocked political system where the ideological fringe refuse to compromise on making necessary reforms and no one can do anything about it. I think it's also because the US has being electing bad leaders across the board for a while now. On the other hand I think vetocracy in the US is way bigger a problem than morons getting elected.
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Apr 3, 2015 00:22
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I was going to say that back when Bush was in office it was a relative handful of complete morons but now the Republican Party is stacked top to bottom with such morons.
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Apr 3, 2015 00:24
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Forums Terrorist posted:The deal was you'd get your clean, effcient etc. life as long as you don't complain or rock the boat by, for example, being gay. Yes sodomy is illegal but that law is not enforced, it's still on the books as a sop to the megachurches and Muslims. Hell they will recognize your overseas gay marriage for visa purposes, something the US didn't do until a couple of years ago.
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Apr 3, 2015 10:22
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Gail Wynand posted:Ugh the "anti-gay" canard. Singapore is just not that anti-gay. LKY had no problem with gay people and said as much. It was Asia's #1 hub for ladyboys until the 80s and there are plenty of gay bars. Yeah, on my visits (granted, I've not lived in Singapore), the place strikes me as authoritarian-lite. I know a lot of residents, both Singaporean and expat, and their complaints focus on cost of living and Singlish rather than repressiveness. It's not even in the same league as officially-repressive places like Burma or Cuba, or socially-repressive places like the Arab world. Singapore doesn't have flamboyantly gay nightlife, but an out expat friend who's been there for years seems to enjoy himself and have a rich life.
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Apr 3, 2015 14:58
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ReindeerF posted:Did this get linked yet? Kaiser mentioned it on Sinica and I'd never seen it: Hah man, I've heard so much about him but he seems like a pretty sharp fellow unlike most dictators.
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Apr 3, 2015 22:16
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I have some friends in Singapore on facebook and they have a really complicated relationship with Lee Kuan Yew. My friends are fairly open-minded but seeing the threads they post on and reply to, it seems any criticism of the man has a lot of people commenting "kill this person" etc. It seems speech is not free there to the extent I'm used to, a critic of the man was chucked into prison because he said some anti-christian stuff (no, I'm not american. Talking about UK style freedom of speech). Apparently most Singaporeans see him as sort of... a good but strict father. The society there seems to be a bit stuffy and old-school, e.g. when I visited during their basically-always-summer weather there was an article in the newspaper about how some people are still decent and wear smart clothes and suits with long pants, but too many riff-raff these days wear shorts and a t-shirt. On the whole people are cool and will drink and have fun, but yeah it's definitely a bit more stuffy.
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Apr 3, 2015 22:34
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~*~Confucian values~*~
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Apr 4, 2015 07:14
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TheImmigrant posted:Personally, no. this isn't what's being discussed here, though, what's being discussed here is if we think LKY's authoritarianism is justifiable in fact, you personally specifically objected to the cuba comparison, you idiot
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Apr 4, 2015 12:20
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It's funny how sensitive leftists are about Stalin.
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Apr 4, 2015 12:26
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V. Illych L. posted:this isn't what's being discussed here, though, what's being discussed here is if we think LKY's authoritarianism is justifiable You sound Angry. I objected to the Cuba comparison because it sucks. Singapore's brand of authoritarianism produced the most prosperous country in Southeast Asia. Cuba's authoritarianism produced one of the poorest countries in the Western Hemisphere. But hey, both countries' names have letters, so there's that.
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Apr 4, 2015 12:38
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TheImmigrant posted:You sound Angry. TheImmigrant posted:Personally, no. you sound like an idiot, which i guess you are! so you're pretty honest, all things considered except when you aren't, of course, and talk about "many western leftists" when confronted with liberal concerns like some even more pathetic shade of mccarthy
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Apr 4, 2015 12:44
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V. Illych L. posted:you sound like an idiot, which i guess you are! so you're pretty honest, all things considered You couldn't find Singapore on a map of Singapore. You think Singapore is in Cuba.
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Apr 4, 2015 12:49
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TheImmigrant posted:You couldn't find Singapore on a map of Singapore. You think Singapore is in Cuba. look, you're spectacularly unintelligent and dishonest, we get it, but one might hope that even so you might at the very least show a smidgeon of consistency across posts. this is not a big thread, and you've managed to directly contradict yourself thrice, all so you could stick it to a group with fundamentally different concerns than the one you're actually arguing with like, this is migf-level ignorance here
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Apr 4, 2015 12:53
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V. Illych L. posted:look, you're spectacularly unintelligent and dishonest, we get it, but one might hope that even so you might at the very least show a smidgeon of consistency across posts. this is not a big thread, and you've managed to directly contradict yourself thrice, all so you could stick it to a group with fundamentally different concerns than the one you're actually arguing with Uh-oh, you're making him feel even more smarmy. This is dangerous. The two ends of his smirk might finally meet and tear his head in half. How could you play with a person's life like this.
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Apr 4, 2015 13:46
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Effectronica posted:Uh-oh, you're making him feel even more smarmy. This is dangerous. The two ends of his smirk might finally meet and tear his head in half. How could you play with a person's life like this. Gearing up for another 16-hour day of D&D posturing, eh Cletus? If you start taking Adderall, you might be able to stretch it to 20 hours.
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Apr 4, 2015 13:57
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TheImmigrant posted:Gearing up for another 16-hour day of D&D posturing, eh Cletus? If you start taking Adderall, you might be able to stretch it to 20 hours. Oh God, I can't watch. It's too terrible.
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Apr 4, 2015 13:58
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Yet another American shut-in who has never left the US, and can't find Singapore on a map. Even worse than manatee-like Americans who are entirely unaware of the existence of an Outside World are manatee-like Americans vaguely aware of an Outside World, but without any actual knowledge of it. Threads about Outside World places like Singapore make them vaguely uncomfortable, insecure, thirsty for a 96-ounce Guzzler of Mountain Dew, and ready to attack. Battlestations, Effectronica. Strike the right pose, and you just might be able to get laid in a gay bar. Someday.
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Apr 4, 2015 14:05
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TheImmigrant posted:Yet another American shut-in who has never left the US, and can't find Singapore on a map. You know, it's pretty cool how you constantly dance back and forth between "Why so serious?" and "Stupid fatties!!" like you're a psychic channeling the essential spirit of the GBS forum. Thus, the constant fluctuation of your background and identity- it's not about lovely gotchas, you're just a leaf in a dysfunctional wind. Hopefully, you release this toxic power before it destroys you.
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Apr 4, 2015 14:09
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Let's get back on topic. I think my personal favorite LKY quote is about how Hispanic immigration will destroy America because too much impure mulatto blood...ahem, "culture," will contaminate everything: "By 2050, the Hispanics will overtake Anglo-Saxons. So, either you change their culture or they change you, and I do not believe that you can change their culture… “I mean, you look at Latin America… Those Hispanics that Obama has appointed to the cabinet or Clinton appointed to the cabinet or George Bush appointed to the cabinet, those are exceptional Hispanics, but the total Hispanic culture will remain what it is. So, you will lose your dynamism, and if you continue with one-man, one-vote, they will set the agenda.”
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Apr 4, 2015 15:04
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I went to Singapore, Little Holland was 0% like Holland. For this flagrant false advertising I blame LKY 100%
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Apr 4, 2015 15:24
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Birdstrike posted:I went to Singapore, Little Holland was 0% like Holland. For this flagrant false advertising I blame LKY 100% I paid $30 for a pitcher of beer at Clarke Quay in Singapore. I blame the Jews.
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Apr 4, 2015 15:27
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The Cuba comparison is kind of a false one because they were heavily reliant on the USSR for cheap oil and exported sugar at inflated prices to the comecon. I'm sure Singapore would be in dire straits if the US fell apart and global capitalism poo poo itself.
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Apr 4, 2015 15:46
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Birdstrike posted:I went to Singapore, Little Holland was 0% like Holland. For this flagrant false advertising I blame LKY 100% It's named after the architect "Hugh Holland" and has nothing to do with being Dutch. Even if there is a daft windmill there on the little mall at Holland Village!
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Apr 4, 2015 15:48
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TheImmigrant posted:Cuba's authoritarianism produced one of the poorest countries in the Western Hemisphere. Cuba is in a significantly better state than its Central American contemporaries, especially factoring in its economic relationship (or rather, its lack of one) with the United States.
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Apr 4, 2015 16:10
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this is all missing the pointttttt agh sorry i ever brough up cuba
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Apr 4, 2015 16:11
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gradenko_2000 posted:Cuba is in a significantly better state than its Central American contemporaries, especially factoring in its economic relationship (or rather, its lack of one) with the United States. Like noted socialist country, Venezuela?
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Apr 4, 2015 16:18
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gradenko_2000 posted:Cuba is in a significantly better state than its Central American contemporaries, especially factoring in its economic relationship (or rather, its lack of one) with the United States. It's safer than Honduras and Guatemala and El Salvador; comparable to Honduras and Nicaragua and Guatemala in terms of standard of living. Of course, citizens of any Central American republic are free to emigrate and try their chances elsewhere. Cuba considers its citizens to be indentured servants. On the other hand, Singapore beats or matches its equally-repressive neighbors by just about every metric (security, standard of living, employment, international connections), unless you are a bongheaded backpacker in clownlocks and dreadpants, looking for the Banana Pancake Trail. If that's the case, then Singapore does indeed suck.
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Apr 4, 2015 16:20
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Singapore corporal punishment is all the rage on liveleak.
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Apr 4, 2015 17:55
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TheImmigrant posted:I paid $30 for a pitcher of beer at Clarke Quay in Singapore. I blame the Chinese. FTFY quote:LKY: As an East Asian looking at America, I find attractive and unattractive features. I like, for example, the free, easy and open relations between people regardless of social status, ethnicity or religion. And the things that I have always admired about America, as against the communist system, I still do: a certain openness in argument about what is good or bad for society; the accountability of public officials; none of the secrecy and terror that's part and parcel of communist government. AHAHAHAHAHA, I hadn't heard about his comments on Hispanics. That is great 
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Apr 4, 2015 18:02
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