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Onmi posted:Fair but it's always just struck me as weird when you have certain classes in certain forces, for one thing, it sort of makes every country the same. Which really is something I noticed in Awakening. Despite fighting two separate countries, I never noticed such a difference in the enemy force that I could go "Okay yeah this is a different army." But yeah, I still see your point, especially considering that half the game has you fighting the Risen, which are just a potpourri. I think part of the problem is that the two most important classes design-wise - wyvern riders and peg knights - are the two they always try to tie to specific countries. Flying enemies have a ton of room for design, it's weird that the only setting that didn't try to artificially limit them was Tellius.
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Apr 30, 2015 09:49
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Endorph posted:I think the idea was that Valm had a ton of horse units and Plegia had wyvern riders/dark mages. Yeah, in this game, by making sure you only fight Pegs when you go down the Ilia route, as well as providing Ilia with a lot of Cavalry, it makes the country feel different to Lycia, who relied more on heavy armored knights and mages, which is different from the Western Isles, which features a lot of Bandits, Fighters and Shamans. Etruria was sort of the half-way point between Lycia and Ilia, lots of Cavalry and Knights, as well as Anima magic users and bishops. And when you get to Bern of course they have their Dracoknights and are the only army to employ Berserkers, they also have the highest count of Heroes. Now obviously there's some cross-over, Laus army uses Cavaliers and mounted horses a lot, which lets you know that Laus as a region is more mount-based. where as Ostia is much more focused on heavy defense with a few cavaliers. Something I remember having a problem with in FE10 was I think... 1-8, where Begnion has a bunch of Bandits that chapter and it's just like "Really? This seems a bit more like you just want to push that these guys are evil, because it doesn't feel that Begnionish." And in regards to you pointing out with the Risen, the Black Fang/Morphs are the same way. They just sort of have whatever they want for that chapter and I mean sure, more power to them, but when something like the Church of the Black Fang happens I just sort of laugh. Onmi fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 10:10
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The Black Fang having monks/bishops would be more forgivable if the game actually bothered to explain how Light Magic works. Like, is it powered by faith? IE: you can believe in anything, you just gotta believe real hard? Or is it just Elimine handing out miracles? Because if it's that, she's made, uh, a few mistakes.
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Apr 30, 2015 10:36
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Endorph posted:The Black Fang having monks/bishops would be more forgivable if the game actually bothered to explain how Light Magic works. Oh no it's not just having bishops, on Farina's join map the Black Fang have three armies, Crazed Beast, and they have one army that's entirely cavaliers, one army that's entirely Fighters/Warriors etc. and then one that's just a loving horde of monks. I'm looking for the picture right now but someone grabbed an excellent cap of just an entire area swarmed with the Black Fangs monks that slays me. It's like, I can handle there being some rogue monks, every game has them, but when you've basically got your own congregation it's like... are you just the Church of the Black Fang? And to add to your question, how do Morphs use divine magic? it's just really drat silly and a good reason why the magic triangle is dumb
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Apr 30, 2015 10:55
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I always figured the quasi-religious way some of the Fang talk about Nergal would work for the 'powered by faith' theory, even the morphs. It'd even explain the Church of the Black Fang. Like, dude is an all-powerful ancient wizard with a cool turban, I can see a guy like that having cultists just laying around. But it's just a theory, since neither game has a single line about how light magic works. It's weird, since like half of Canas's supports are about explaining dark magic. And there's the Erk/Pent stuff for Anima.
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Apr 30, 2015 11:01
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Endorph posted:I always figured the quasi-religious way some of the Fang talk about Nergal would work for the 'powered by faith' theory, even the morphs. It'd even explain the Church of the Black Fang. Like, dude is an all-powerful ancient wizard with a cool turban, I can see a guy like that having cultists just laying around. Indeed, and I mean we do get some explanation of magic in this game, it's just staff magic. Dorothy asks Jodel why she can't use healing staffs at all even though she believes in God. quote:Dorothy: Bishop Yodel? I'm kind of upset because Jodel takes the time to explain why the support system works but no one takes the time to explain Holy magic.
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Apr 30, 2015 11:28
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The Black Fang really does have a Church of Nergal, though. Kenneth says as much in the Pale Flower of Darkness path Melth didn't take. “Are you referring to my relationship with the “gods”? Are you still held in thrall of such a concept? You’ve met Lord Nergal, haven’t you? Then there is something you must know. Gods are lies created by the weakness in all mankind. …If a god truly exists, then it is my lord Nergal. Only him.”
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Apr 30, 2015 11:34
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You know, I was actually speculating on this in the last thread a bit. The series goes out of its way to point out that pegasi are Ilia's thing and wyverns are from Bern, but you sure don't see much exclusivity. It's all a bit Drizzt Do'Urden. I mean I'm no political genius but it seems to me that if I was a country known for a specific type of animal I'd work really hard to make sure I was the only one who even got the chance to play with it. Having my advantage go from "I have wyverns" to "I am currently the best at wyverns" dilutes it pretty bad. To start with I'd probably make sure riders and mounts were rotated regularly so they couldn't get attached or learn to respond to one person in particular, so if one of my soldiers went rogue I could send a few people to chase them down and reclaim the animal. Maybe train the animal to not stray too far from something only I'm ever going to have in my camps, or to seek it out if they get lost (ideally both). Most of the solutions I can think of to keeping soldiers from going rogue and taking their flying horse with them are more social and abstract; you know, being a country that inspires loyalty instead of fear and not an oppressive shithole and all that. Pretty much nothing is totally proof against one of my people going rogue but "not being loving Bern" is gonna be a big help. Now I mean that's just as a military commander or government leader. If I'm one of the riders you bet your fuckin' rear end I want my own drat wyvern to get attached to and feed rabbit haunches while I talk to it in a schmoopy voice and name something stupid and cutesy like Commander Butterball.
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Apr 30, 2015 11:36
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Dr. Buttass posted:You know, I was actually speculating on this in the last thread a bit. The series goes out of its way to point out that pegasi are Ilia's thing and wyverns are from Bern, but you sure don't see much exclusivity. It's all a bit Drizzt Do'Urden. I mean I'm no political genius but it seems to me that if I was a country known for a specific type of animal I'd work really hard to make sure I was the only one who even got the chance to play with it. Having my advantage go from "I have wyverns" to "I am currently the best at wyverns" dilutes it pretty bad. To start with I'd probably make sure riders and mounts were rotated regularly so they couldn't get attached or learn to respond to one person in particular, so if one of my soldiers went rogue I could send a few people to chase them down and reclaim the animal. Maybe train the animal to not stray too far from something only I'm ever going to have in my camps, or to seek it out if they get lost (ideally both). Most of the solutions I can think of to keeping soldiers from going rogue and taking their flying horse with them are more social and abstract; you know, being a country that inspires loyalty instead of fear and not an oppressive shithole and all that. Pretty much nothing is totally proof against one of my people going rogue but "not being loving Bern" is gonna be a big help. Miledy actually does sort of mention it when she talks about it in her Jodel supports quote:Miredy: Bishop Yodel, I must thank you for helping me so I wouldn’t be alienated in the army… But otherwise you're right, I mean in regards to player Pegasi, two of them are hired (Tate is contracted to Klein who sides with Roy) and the other joins you post-liberation. Both of your Dracoknights also desert directly from the army, and I really dislike Heath now that you're mentioning this. Because he's just a dude with one of the rarest creatures in the world at his beck and call and nobody really makes a big deal about it. Actually this is something I really like about Tellius, going back to what Endorph brought up before, the Dracoknights that work for Daein aren't native to the country, they're the remnants of the Senate Guard that frankly had enough of the Senates bullshit and left for greener pastures. With the Pegasus Knights serving as the Apostles Guard. So it's neat that Daein didn't have this force, but they gained it due to a split in Begnion Politics. Now that being said, one of the most infuriating things to me, is the one chapter in RD where the BOA has Peg Knights, because again, that's the Apostles Guard, what is it doing occupying Daein? Because the games established that the Pegasus Knights were purely the Apostles Guard, and even a rogue steed like Elincias descended from one of those. Which is another thing I hate, to bolster Crimea's forces and to make it so none of the good guys are associated with Begnion We'll have Marcia just leave and join Crimea along with the other Begnion characters. Hate that games disregard for story... But FE6 is probably, for one of its few shining points, a game that does it best, Barring a few nomads in these early chapters, Sacae is the exclusive place to get Nomad Troopers, Ilia is the exclusive place to get Pegasi, Bern is the exclusive place to get Dracoknights. I'm thinking personally about giving Pirates to the Western Isles and Mage Knights to Etruria, but I don't know what to do for Lycia.
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Apr 30, 2015 12:05
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Onmi posted:
Halberdiers and Snipers 
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Apr 30, 2015 12:33
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Cat Army 
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The Iron Rose posted:Halberdiers and Snipers Halberdiers probably work for the new arc created whole cloth for the hack
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Apr 30, 2015 12:37
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Lycia seems to be the place to be for paladins and generals.
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Apr 30, 2015 13:44
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Terper posted:Lycia seems to be the place to be for paladins and generals. Yeah but you encounter those in Etruria to, most notably Arcard and Roartz who are in fact a Paladin and a General.
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Apr 30, 2015 14:14
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Lycia specializes in deploying level 10 unpromoted units with lovely stats in the third to last chapter. The only unit type that's unique to Lycia is Lord.
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Apr 30, 2015 14:35
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Yeah, but Lycia has Sain and Kent and Marcus and Isadora and Lowen and Alan and Lance and Oswin and Bors and everyone else I missed.
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Apr 30, 2015 14:59
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Yeah, but they ain't unique to Lycia. Ilia is also specifically cavalier/paladin country, and knights and generals are loving everywhere.
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Apr 30, 2015 15:04
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Heroes, then. Lycia is Protagonist Central, after all.
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Apr 30, 2015 15:06
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I liked Saul as a character. Sure, he's a skirtchaser, but it doesn't distract him from his devotion to his quest or his god/saint/whatever (...too much). It's a nice change from the other Clerics in the GBA series who are super serious the whole time and kinda fall flat. And when the situation calls for it (say, if you send him to fight a certain boss later on) you can see one pissed off brother.
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Apr 30, 2015 15:06
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Terper posted:Yeah, but Lycia has Sain and Kent and Marcus and Isadora and Lowen and Alan and Lance and Oswin and Bors and everyone else I missed. Yes but again. Ilia exclusively has the Pegasus Knight Bern exclusively has the Dracoknight Etruria exclusively has the Mage Knight and I think the Valkyrie The Western Isles exclusively has the Berserker (except for the generic ones in Chapter 22) Lycia has... nothing, I'd probably make it Halberdiers since they're in the game.
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Apr 30, 2015 15:07
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To me it's not even clear that the battles we see are exactly canonical. I mean we get Roy talking about the enemy having lines that need to be broken, big armies being maybe 50 guys, support conversations involving incidents in battle that totally didn't happen,the whole weirdness of people running up and down "mountains" in the few seconds that a round seems to be, and of course turn based combat at all. Very little that happens on the battlefield in Fire Emblem makes sense if you take it literally. I think it's a big case of the gameplay not being meant to really match with the story so much as to be a fun game. And for fun you really need the enemy to have some troop variety chapter by chapter. It's bad enough that every single unit in this game except mages with long ranged tomes and status staves fights in the exact same way: running up to 1-2 squares away from you and then rolling some dice to try to hit you for Str + Might - Def. To have them all have the same sets of stats and unit counters for like 3-4 chapters in a row or however long each national story arc in your version of FE6 would be sounds like Lyn's story-esque repetitiveness. Oh and regarding the monks in the Black Fang in particular, I never saw a problem with that. Almost every FE game has at least one evil Bishop high up in the enemy organization, making it entirely clear that light magic doesn't require you to be on the side of justice in any FE universe. Heck, Riev is pretty much the baddest dude in FE8 and worships the ultimate evil but he can do light magic. Kenneth in FE7 is similar and worships a guy who somewhat interestingly never calls himself a god. So yeah, monks and bishops can clearly go bad- or start bad- same as anyone else. Oh and as for FE7 in particular, as far as we're told, none of the Eight Legends made their weapons for themselves. Elimine was just the most powerful light-magic wielder in the world at the time, so some totally awesome craftsman handed her Aureola. Light magic existed before her so it isn't tied to her church.
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Apr 30, 2015 18:17
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Well in addition to the only lords coming from lycia, they also have the only transporter class units in the game. What I'm saying is that they clearly specialize in crushing their enemies under the might of the free market economy.
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Apr 30, 2015 19:53
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Cue the gag chapter where you have a time limit to chip through a dozen Transporter-class evasion-tanks programmed to swarm on top of the throne.
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Apr 30, 2015 21:10
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SonicRulez posted:Jesus, you'd think the entire update was just "gently caress Clarine" over and over with pictures of her dying. I like the character analysis and plot analysis and overall the LP is given a voice. I'm not saying everyone has to like it, but if you just want to read a technical guide of how to S-Rank FE6, you could just go to GameFAQs. The most verbal opposition to a Florina the character breakdown: the sequel is the guy who keeps posting 'hype posts' about his fanfiction hack that has double-sized maps and super objectives added to like the first 5 chapters of the game. So if the update completely ignored the opportunity to talk about the bad plot or characterization he'd have a 10 minute-read instead of a 20-minute read that he would be bored with anyways. I don't think Omni would be particularly satisfied with any LP of the first 10 chapters of this game since they need so much 'improvement' and 'epic character cameos'
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Apr 30, 2015 21:24
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Onmi's hack looks pretty cool and he's already said that he let the map sizes get out of control and is toning them down. So, uh, what's your deal again? not to mention the florina character breakdown was yelling about misandry and gamergate chat, so i think anyone with two functioning braincells doesn't want a repeat of that Endorph fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 21:55
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Melth posted:To me it's not even clear that the battles we see are exactly canonical. I mean we get Roy talking about the enemy having lines that need to be broken, big armies being maybe 50 guys, support conversations involving incidents in battle that totally didn't happen,the whole weirdness of people running up and down "mountains" in the few seconds that a round seems to be, and of course turn based combat at all. Very little that happens on the battlefield in Fire Emblem makes sense if you take it literally. I think it's a big case of the gameplay not being meant to really match with the story so much as to be a fun game. This is one of my favourite things about FE7 specifically, actually. It doesn't have the disparity between the number of units in the playable part of the game and the sizes of armies the plot tells us about that the other games have. Its plot works as a series of little skirmishes between small numbers of people, and even has all-but-open acknowledgement of Nergal's tactic of making everyone believe that his little contingent of morphs is actually an army. The Tellius games almost avoid this with how the Begnion Central Army is used mainly as a plot device but they all eventually give you a "two armies clash!" chapter that's really just a couple tens of units big.
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Apr 30, 2015 22:06
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I just figured that once you get into the war-level chapters, that every unit represents a dozen or so guys with the actual character at the head. Like how Yggdra Union works.
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Apr 30, 2015 22:11
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The element unifying the Fire Emblem games is that instead of The Art of War, the leading treatise on strategy suggests things like this gradual scaling of unit competency, the disorganized blobs, randomly distributing gear, fighting to the last man over every skirmish, and letting the boss always have the first go and everyone having a specific place after that. By concentrating his forces and not always moving first, Roy has thrown everything into disarray.
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Apr 30, 2015 23:08
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Endorph posted:I just figured that once you get into the war-level chapters, that every unit represents a dozen or so guys with the actual character at the head. Like how Yggdra Union works. You just reminded me of how much I miss Yggdra Union. EDIT: Oh yeah and Melth, I'm not sure if you knew this (and I only found it out myself) but in FE6 at least, Silence Staff users will only attempt to target PC Staff users with staffs currently in their inventory. So just something to keep in mind for AI manipulation. Onmi fucked around with this message at 02:41 on May 1, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 23:13
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Endorph posted:I just figured that once you get into the war-level chapters, that every unit represents a dozen or so guys with the actual character at the head. Like how Yggdra Union works. I sometimes wonder if that's the intended interpretation too, but it has almost as many problems really, including some of the same ones. Ultimately I think Fire Emblem is supposed to be a fun game and to have a mostly separate good story which the gameplay represents symbolically rather than literally most of the time. Onmi posted:
Interesting, thanks. Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:The element unifying the Fire Emblem games is that instead of The Art of War, the leading treatise on strategy suggests things like this gradual scaling of unit competency, the disorganized blobs, randomly distributing gear, fighting to the last man over every skirmish, and letting the boss always have the first go and everyone having a specific place after that. By concentrating his forces and not always moving first, Roy has thrown everything into disarray. He takes after his tactical genius father who's revolutionizing warfare by just locking the door of his castle and not coming out or letting the enemy in. Oh and I just wanted to say I'm a big fan of your doodles on both this thread and Artix's. Endorph posted:Onmi's hack looks pretty cool and he's already said that he let the map sizes get out of control and is toning them down. So, uh, what's your deal again? Omni's hack is cool enough that it's got me wondering about someday making one myself. Regarding the issue of map size in particular, I think I'd suggest relying on disruptive terrain (dense forests, rivers, twists and turns and doors in a castle) more than size to set the pacing of maps in general. That's typically more interesting to play through and it lets you save the really, really big maps for the dramatic endgame battles like Cog of Destiny, Victory or Death, Darkling Woods, or The Sword of Seals.
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May 1, 2015 05:03
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Melth posted:Omni's hack is cool enough that it's got me wondering about someday making one myself. Regarding the issue of map size in particular, I think I'd suggest relying on disruptive terrain (dense forests, rivers, twists and turns and doors in a castle) more than size to set the pacing of maps in general. That's typically more interesting to play through and it lets you save the really, really big maps for the dramatic endgame battles like Cog of Destiny, Victory or Death, Darkling Woods, or The Sword of Seals. Well regarding map size, my problem is that mentally I think very large and in whole details, like with that Chapter 5 map, the mindset was designing the region of Thria more than designing a really good compact map that was appropriate for a Chapter 5 (and it was like 4 years ago) But even recently I got examples of this  This is chapter 22's old map, it's a newly invented map for a newly invented part in the game. See the idea I had was that it was this three tiered city since it was the capital of Etruria and I wanted to do something neat for it, but in the end there's a lot of empty space even for a rout map, and I wanted to make it taller?  So it was cut down to this, much more manageable, I could even cut out that shop up the top (it's only accessible by Warp anyway, and it's a sort of Pseudo secret shop, with some rarer weapons and items, but not quite an actual Secret Shop. Maybe I'll have Jake run it) with the planned mission type still being the same. One major thing I disliked was that the tileset looks very tacky, and I really wanted Aquelia to look more regal. Maybe I'll palette change the browns to white to give it a marble look. Oh yeah and those pillars, it's neat using the toolset to try and create decorations. A bitch to get right. Still happy with my little church there. Anyway, If you do one day consider hacking, I'd urge you to not be a fool like me, start small. Honestly the next bitch of thing to get working are the 'Base' maps. Which... because we can't edit the menu in any significant way (otherwise I'd be including things like doing supports or consuming items in the menu) I'm instead making a post-mission map where the player does there supports, Base-Convo's, can consume items etc. The trick of course is getting all of your alive units deployed without having to go through a save menu every time, and the next is getting it to go to the correct next chapter (because we're making only a few different maps, just with different events.) It's all possible, I just haven't put it into practice to accurately do it, and yeah, it's using FE9 style of support growths, so one can get Ranks AND character development. EDIT: want to see something ridiculous from 4 years ago Onmi?  A scaled down version of my redesign for chapter 1!  : Hey, I can make FE4 sized maps in the FE6 engine! Why not! EDIT 2: In fact, here's a fullsized version of it  Always save everything you did in the past so in the future you can laugh at your insanity. Onmi fucked around with this message at 06:01 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 05:36
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Kajeesus posted:Lycia specializes in deploying level 10 unpromoted units with lovely stats in the third to last chapter. The only unit type that's unique to Lycia is Lord. Sacae produces a lord. Though maybe that's why Lyn's Lord class is the least impressive of the three, it's all that Sacae, diluting the 'Lord' essence of Lycia, while the Lycia dilutes the Nomad Trooper and Swordmaster out of the Sacae.
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May 1, 2015 05:44
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Melth posted:The average of these averages is 11.7 (and as a reminder the chapter 1 one was 8.2). I also know the number for chapter 5 was 11 at minimum with certainty because one enemy had gained enough points in HP that he had to have 11 hidden levels. Actually, the formula is 3+ceiling(chapter/2) [x2 since this is Chapter 5]. So the enemies are expected to have 6*2 = 12 bonus levels on this chapter. I searched around, but I could not rediscover the page that mentioned the bug. I instead found a link to the Serenes Forest wiki on enemy stats/HM bonuses though. It corroborates the HM bonus formula, but doesn't explain why it works that way.
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May 1, 2015 06:33
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This is the first map, in a game that isn't horse emblem like 4. Two cavs, one paladin, a knight, an archer, and an unmounted lord have to walk across the whole of Elibe under player control. I remember looking at this some time ago, and commenting that it was too big even back then.
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May 1, 2015 15:28
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Onmi posted:Anyway, If you do one day consider hacking, I'd urge you to not be a fool like me, start small.
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May 1, 2015 16:25
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NeoRonTheNeuron posted:Actually, the formula is 3+ceiling(chapter/2) [x2 since this is Chapter 5]. So the enemies are expected to have 6*2 = 12 bonus levels on this chapter. Looking at that page, I think the enemy level up logic has been decompiled; how many bonus levels enemies get in hard mode is in the chapter data and its position is known. You could simply hack enemy HP growth to 100% and see that for this chapter (and this chapter only) actual HP bonus is double the expected HP bonus.
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May 1, 2015 16:40
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Onmi posted:EDIT 2: In fact, here's a fullsized version of it Poor Roy, having to traverse such giant maps. 
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May 1, 2015 18:21
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Poor Roy, having to traverse such giant maps.
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May 1, 2015 18:27
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Endorph posted:why does lance have red hair and armor Because even roy can't tell them apart
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May 1, 2015 18:29
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Endorph posted:why does lance have red hair and armor Halloween in Pherae is May 1st. Aren't you dressed up?
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May 1, 2015 18:30
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If accuracies are so low in this game does that make skill a marginally more useful stat?
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May 2, 2015 01:49
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