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Kylra posted:That gets into pulling stuff out of a hat territory. I don't think this is a Death Note style setup where they're hiding certain critical facts from the audience about how Light actually pulls off the "Just as planned"/"All according to keikaku" plan. Everything Burrito fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 19:05
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If we're going with the "Fake fog" idea... Isn't it possible that the bombs were being used to either vaporize water on the ground or within themselves to artificially generate a fog or fog-like substance in order to further the ruse? It's stupid and very anime, but then again, this is an anime.
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Aug 9, 2015 19:11
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Tamba posted:I've now read the novel up to where the current episode stopped, and there's something else that was omitted from the anime (I guess there's no way to show it visually without spoiling anything). This is what I was referring to here: NowonSA posted:There's another fairly minor change, but it's just an overall good idea to drop it for the anime, and it probably wasn't necessary in the LN either. Please remind me that I said that if I forget to explain it after all the episodes have aired. That bit of info gives definitive proof that rules out at least one suspect, along with maybe some others as that narrative device is used multiple times in the first LN. It'd be hard (but not impossible) to convey in the anime, so it's a good choice to drop it. Also, as we've already seen based on all the theories and interest shown so far, the real meat of this story is the identity of the traitor, so the less you know about that the better, in my opinion. Oh, and for those trying to avoid spoilers, the above information only confirms the extremely obvious, it doesn't really give a hint to the traitor or how the traitor pulled off their plan. Kytrarewn posted:If we're going with the "Fake fog" idea... I think we saw or heard some of them go off and create what sounded very much like standard explosions. It's plausible that some non-explosive bombs, like a water bomb, were dropped. I'm not drawing on LN knowledge in this analysis, I just think that someone was able to get demons to carry bombs and drop them at a specific time and place, and it's not much of a leap from there to say they gave some of them a different type of bomb to drop alongside the others. NowonSA fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 19:12
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Theories regarding the door and seal seem secondary to the questions: how, when and from where was the barrier activated? The barrier began sometime between Adlet opening the door and everyone showing up. Seems like that's your most limiting parameter, and theories should work their way outward from there. But... I'm not Batman. I'm half expecting the cast to stumble across the rubble of the real temple during their hunt in the next episode. The outstanding questions from that being: Why would Flamio be affected in a staged temple? (Not that I'm assuming her innocence, but rather that she wouldn't implicate herself with the lie) Why didn't Hans and Adlet see it before during their forest dash? Also here's hoping that the story doesn't waste the talking/shape-shifting demon that Adlet failed to talk about (if I'm remembering correctly). Considering it's presumably still trapped with them, it may be capable of sewing some extra mistrust and tension among them during their hunt (depending on how well it can take on someone else's form and voice). Ferretts fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 19:18
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Ferretts posted:I'm half expecting the cast to stumble across the rubble of the real temple during their hunt in the next episode. The outstanding questions from that being: I'm clearly failing at not commenting on theories, but I have to give the most outside the box theory award to "The entire temple they're in is a fake." This would solve literally every problem we've seen so far though, if true. the traitor can just activate the barrier from the true temple, then show up later. Chamot would be the lead suspect in this case, since she was the one traveling along. Explain to me how they built a fake temple with a sealed Saint door and Demon-repelling Salt Pillar all around it though...
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Aug 9, 2015 19:24
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after the big reveal, what's even left for the story? does it just become a generic fantasy deal after volume 1?
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Aug 9, 2015 19:28
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dogsicle posted:after the big reveal, what's even left for the story? does it just become a generic fantasy deal after volume 1? A lot. I won't say, but nothing is ever that simple.
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Aug 9, 2015 19:29
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Ferretts posted:Also here's hoping that the story doesn't waste the talking/shape-shifting demon that Adlet failed to talk about (if I'm remembering correctly). Considering it's presumably still trapped with them, it may be capable of sewing some extra mistrust and tension among them during their hunt (depending on how well it can take on someone else's form and voice). That one's dead, Chamo said she killed it in the previous episode.
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Aug 9, 2015 19:31
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Suffice to say they aren't trapped in fog forever. They go on out to kill the demon god, of course, and hijinx ensue. I can give some details on that, naturally, but I expect this season will end with them embarking on that journey. I wouldn't say it's generic fantasy, but it's certainly a fantasy story.
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Aug 9, 2015 19:31
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my assumption was that volume 1 ended with the discovery and defeat of the traitor, leaving the rest to complete their original quest. i suppose even without a traitor, the fiends are definitely more than just mindless beasts as far as obstacles go. glad to hear it doesn't lose steam...and kind of considering picking it up myself.
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Aug 9, 2015 19:46
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I can wholeheartedly recommend it, it's been a great read. I suggest you pick it up after you finish watching the anime and just start from book 2. I think most people will want to read ahead on what happens after the end of the season anyway, given the unlikelihood of further seasons unless sales really pick up and the note the season ends on.
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Aug 9, 2015 20:43
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NowonSA posted:Explain to me how they built a fake temple with a sealed Saint door and Demon-repelling Salt Pillar all around it though... I don't actually believe this, but: -It was the next project for the demon lord's gunpowder temple slaves. They built a new structure and relocated the demon repelling salt columns to the new site. -The seal isn't legit, but Hans, their inside man, tells everyone else that it is (Maura may not be an expert enough to notice). He's also the guy taking for granted that nobody could sneak passed Adlet, while knowing full well someone like him could. -He may be lying about how much detail he was given about the temple, and could easily be in the pocket of whoever would pay to seal the Braves. Separate thoughts: -It might be cool if Nash was Flamio v2.0 after beta testing (i.e. a younger half-sister/demon). It could work... -Not sure why everyone is acting under the assumption that there is ONE false brave. If one extra mark can exist, why couldn't more? I'm picturing a scene following the horrifying blood bath of Brave on Brave murder when the barrier finally collapses only to let in two other random, and now terribly confused, elites with flower tattoos.
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Aug 9, 2015 20:44
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NowonSA posted:A lot of this makes sense, but it does require a fort full of people to be in on it, which seems too elaborate. Not necessarily. Having rethought about it beforehand my theory on the fort is that they're wrong and were fed a line by the previous Saint of Seals herself. It's stated that a human- any human- can activate this barrier, and given the one-time use of this thing it would be really poor if someone could blow it by just being a moron. The actual method- if, you know, I'm not just spouting BS, which is a real possibility- is probably a secret among the 78 Saints, given the subject matter, and therefore Nash would totally know about it. And Maura would too. Which is why she's the police chief Adlet has turned in his badge and gun to and is now going to have to prove that his methods are the right way to go about it, because damnit Adlet you're a loose cannon, you're off the case! Edit: So what I'm saying is that Maura's "It can be deactivated by the person who activated it, or by killing the person who activated it" is trustworthy in this instance.
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Aug 9, 2015 21:53
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I don't know how they'd sneak in a half demon/half human to replace a princess, or be accepted as one. That seems pretty tricky, and her being so integrated into human society is also a knock against her being the traitor, unless she's being blackmailed or something. We do know hybrids can be Saints though thanks to Flamie, so there is that.
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Aug 9, 2015 21:55
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One can be a princess and also crazy. 
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Aug 9, 2015 21:59
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Reminder: Nash basically threw her entire entourage into a pit trap and ran off with Adlet as soon as the symbols were put on them.
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Aug 9, 2015 22:01
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Tamba posted:That one's dead, Chamo said she killed it in the previous episode. My memory is kind of fuzzy on what happened in the episode where they actually got to the temple, but as of this episode I think what happened was: Adlet blowing open the temple is what activated the barrier, the creators of the temple foresaw that there might be fiends (like Flamie) that could get close to the temple so they made that if they were to break into the temple the barrier activates and traps them there and presumably they would go and clear out the fiends then set up the temple and barrier again. The shape shifting fiend knew this and tricked Adlet into blowing open the door to force the barrier to activate and also throw suspicion on him. Then the shape shifting fiend escaped into the forest, transformed into the Chamot we've seen (the real Chamot either got killed by the fiend or is trapped outside the barrier) and waltzed into the temple eager to kill whoever gets suspected. Failing that (since I'm probably forgetting something that disproves all of that) I still think that Nashetania is the seventh since she is incredibly suspicious, or Adlet is the seventh but he is a sleeper agent and doesn't know it.
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Aug 9, 2015 22:07
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NowonSA posted:I don't know how they'd sneak in a half demon/half human to replace a princess, or be accepted as one. That seems pretty tricky, and her being so integrated into human society is also a knock against her being the traitor, unless she's being blackmailed or something. We do know hybrids can be Saints though thanks to Flamie, so there is that. Remember that a revolution was fought for the right to murder Nash which was headed off when she started to grow saint powers and we have no idea why that should have been the case. (The easy answer is that the king was trying to protect his own neck by saying "I'll kill all my heirs, just let me rule for another 30 years until I die of old age). But no, I don't think that it's likely that there's another half-demon in the party. On the other hand, it isn't entirely impossible that there is a traitor who is a demon lord sympathizing human, to balance out the human-sympathizing half-demon. edit: InspectorCarbonara posted:Adlet is the seventh but he is a sleeper agent and doesn't know it. Or he's just powerful enough to go through the poison and the rest of the stuff through sheer willpower. He seems to bond with Flamie who is able to pass by the salt, experiencing severe pain, in the name of offing the demon king. Perhaps that, also, is mirrored in Adlet with the poison in the demon land. real edit: Wasn't actually a fake edit. Kytrarewn fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 22:14
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I don't think Adlet would be able to go through poison mist through willpower.
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Aug 9, 2015 22:30
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Kild posted:I don't think Adlet would be able to go through poison mist through willpower. Strongest Man In The World.
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Aug 9, 2015 22:31
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I'm kind of trying to debunk ideas/theories across the board, in case it wasn't obvious. I don't want a situation where I don't comment on one but comment on the rest, that makes it pretty clear when someone's solved it. Or it does in my mind anyway. Even as obsessed as I am I'll probably not comment on some theories by chance, but I'm trying to catch about as many as I can.Kylra posted:Reminder: Nash basically threw her entire entourage into a pit trap and ran off with Adlet as soon as the symbols were put on them. True, but it's a long way from that to "traitor to the entire human race" and her conversion or planting/replacement while being both a Saint and a highly monitored princess seems like a significant hurdle. InspectorCarbonara posted:Chamot was alone until she got to the temple right? The temple auto-triggering if it's attacked is an interesting idea. I don't think the shape-shifting fiend could get past the salt pillars into the temple though. She might have been past the pillars in human form when we first say her though, I'd have to rewatch it. Maybe she was just gutting it out if she was, she was acting injured/weak but that might have just been a case of her physical state lending itself to the role she was playing. Kytrarewn posted:Remember that a revolution was fought for the right to murder Nash which was headed off when she started to grow saint powers and we have no idea why that should have been the case. I did forget about the revolution, that could certainly provide some opportunities for someone to turn Nash into a traitor. It gives her a reason to not like humans at the very least. As far as thedemon land survival issue, needing a brave symbol to live there is a pretty firm rule. Flamie can get by, but that stuff is severely lethal to non-Brave humans. Mankind has a vested interest in cracking that nut so they can send in more than just 6 people, but they haven't come up with anything yet. Now we do have 7 humans (or at least part-humans) here with brave symbols, so it's possible that's been faked or copied while maintaining its poison-proof properties. One minor thing worth noting is that Demons only kill humans, and the poison is only effective against humans. So if you could just train an elite squadron of dogs or horses... NowonSA fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 22:48
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NowonSA posted:As far as demon land survival issue, that's a pretty firm rule. Flamie can get by, but that stuff is severely lethal to non-Brave humans. Mankind has a vested interest in cracking that nut so they can send in more than just 6 people, but they haven't come up with anything yet. Now we do have 7 humans (or at least part-humans) here with brave symbols, so it's possible that's been faked or copied while maintaining its poison-proof properties. Saint of a Single Flower could do it. So could chijou saikyou no otoko..., maybe.
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Aug 9, 2015 22:52
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Original Flower Saint could do all sorts of ridiculous stuff though. I mean, nobody really remembers the details since it's close to 1,000 years ago, but she was the first Saint, she beat the Demon Lord when he was fully awakened and spread all over the place, and then became revered as a Goddess and is somehow repeatedly bestowing a blessing on 6 people when they need it the most. So we have no real idea how she did it, but she's definitely the strongest human to have ever lived. Adlet uses caltrops.
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Aug 9, 2015 22:58
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InspectorCarbonara posted:Adlet blowing open the temple is what activated the barrier, the creators of the temple foresaw that there might be fiends (like Flamie) that could get close to the temple so they made that if they were to break into the temple the barrier activates and traps them there and presumably they would go and clear out the fiends then set up the temple and barrier again. E: And the current generation of saints responsible for this kind of stuff have been stated to be too young to really mess with something on this level. Kylra fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 23:03
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NowonSA posted:True, but it's a long way from that to "traitor to the entire human race" and her conversion or planting/replacement while being both a Saint and a highly monitored princess seems like a significant hurdle. There might be something else not entirely on the level going on with her, but I doubt she's the one that raised the barrier. Kylra fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 23:08
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Can we get some confirmation from anyone who's read the light novels that this story adheres to the rules of the mystery genre? The last time I committed any effort into deciphering the central mystery of a narrative it turned out to be irrelevant since the mystery was intended to be unveiled, not solved. A simple "Yes it does" or "No it doesn't" would suffice. In a vacuum I'd assume (and hope) "Yes," but that bit from the novel they cut out has me thinking otherwise.
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Aug 9, 2015 23:23
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NowonSA posted:Original Flower Saint could do all sorts of ridiculous stuff though. I mean, nobody really remembers the details since it's close to 1,000 years ago, but she was the first Saint, she beat the Demon Lord when he was fully awakened and spread all over the place, and then became revered as a Goddess and is somehow repeatedly bestowing a blessing on 6 people when they need it the most. So we have no real idea how she did it, but she's definitely the strongest human to have ever lived. Here's what we know about the respective power levels of our current party: Chamo: Strong enough to be unkillable in a surprise attack by Flamie Flamie: Strong enough to kill a whole bunch of demons and several Brave candidates Adlet: Strong enough to injure two Brave candidates at their little tournament, at the same time Nash: Strong enough to kill a whole bunch of demons Goldof: Strong enough to kill a whole bunch of demons Humpty: Strong enough to probably be a brave Maura: Strong enough to probably be a brave We haven't seen any of them fighting an opponent even nearly strong enough to accurately judge their power levels, and there was once someone powerful enough to do all sorts of bullshit without needing a special blessing. It could, in fact almost certainly would, happen again.
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Aug 9, 2015 23:27
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Bad Seafood posted:Can we get some confirmation from anyone who's read the light novels that this story adheres to the rules of the mystery genre? The last time I committed any effort into deciphering the central mystery of a narrative it turned out to be irrelevant since the mystery was intended to be unveiled, not solved. I'm leaning towards Yes it does. What would you consider to be the rules of the mystery genre? I can probably give you a much better answer if I know that.
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Aug 9, 2015 23:29
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Does the show show the audience the.solution to the mystery prior to the characters figuring it out E. Basically in mysteries the audience is either expected to solve it along with the characters or else the audience is shown the answer and you watch the characters find out what you already know, so they can use dramatic irony more Namtab fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 23:38
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NowonSA posted:I'm leaning towards Yes it does. What would you consider to be the rules of the mystery genre? I can probably give you a much better answer if I know that.
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Aug 9, 2015 23:42
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Another fact: Maura says that there are saints who could force the door open, but none who could restore its original state. Out of the 7, 4 are saints. Out of those, 2 are not out fighting demons and might have a chance to force open the door. Out of those, one is stated to be too blunt with power to not leave traces, Chamot. Conveniently, this leaves Maura in question still as the one who actually broke the seal. Perhaps her statement is intended to include a reference to herself as one of those people who could open the door. Presumably by her name, she can manipulate stone, and why not remotely, and without a trace other than the fact that the doors opened? If she does that, she could remain outside and potentially be the one the armor goes after. If that's the case though, that still makes me wonder why Maura is trying so hard to not let everyone kill Adlet so soon. Maybe it's just to trick everyone into trusting her more though, so she can whittle the group down farther. But that leaves the question of the person who raises the barrier. While it could possibly have been Maura (it just involves running in and out at the proper time) Hans is conveniently an infiltrator, and they had the opportunity to meet some day or more before Adlet and company show up. Their only other supervision during that time is Chamot, who looks at Maura like a mother. Hans being the one that raises the barrier still seems like an odd choice though because of how suspicious he is. However, he is the one that pulls the framing of Adlet from Adlets testimony, nearly single-handedly. Hans probably could not have broken the seal though. He's also an assassin who works for money, and maybe the demons could have paid for his services, as well as managed to break the seal for him. Having two of the current crop of braves be fake seems a little excessive at first glance though. Kytrarewn posted:Chamo: Strong enough to be unkillable in a surprise attack by Flamie Kylra fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 23:46
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Bad Seafood posted:The detective cannot be the culprit. Er, the "unreliable narrator" device is present in some of my favourite mystery novels, so that seems a strange rule.
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Aug 9, 2015 23:46
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darkgray posted:Er, the "unreliable narrator" device is present in some of my favourite mystery novels, so that seems a strange rule. "Unreliable narrator" and "unreliable detective" are two different things. For instance, in The Murder of Roger Ackroyd, the narrator is not the detective.
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Aug 9, 2015 23:50
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Also, there is the possibility that an actual brave is also a traitor for either part of this whodunit. I don't think that has been ruled out.
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Aug 9, 2015 23:51
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darkgray posted:Er, the "unreliable narrator" device is present in some of my favourite mystery novels, so that seems a strange rule. Another way to look at it is that it's fine to have a primary viewpoint character that misleads or omits, and they can lie in dialog or writing, but you can't have them outright lie within their own narration. What they describe seeing, doing, and thinking must be the truth.
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Aug 9, 2015 23:59
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Kylra posted:Also, there is the possibility that an actual brave is also a traitor for either part of this whodunit. I don't think that has been ruled out. Or triggered this situation to winkle the real traitor out into the open after noticing they had one Brave too many on the way to the temple.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:02
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Kylra posted:Having two of the current crop of braves be fake seems a little excessive at first glance though. Naratively speaking... Sure. But not for the group of characters that don't know they're heroes in a LN mystery scenario. All I'm looking for is a throwaway line by someone acknowledging that it's a weak assumption that there can be only one false mark.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:04
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Namtab posted:Does the show show the audience the.solution to the mystery prior to the characters figuring it out I think you've seen enough clues to be able to piece it all together, and there are still a few more clues on the way before it's all explained. At the very least, expect the probable suspect list to become increasingly smaller. It's mostly about viewing things in a different manner and being open to any possibility. Everything should click into place pretty well once it's all out in the open. Out of those two options, it's more like you're solving it along with the characters, unless you're Batman. "Remove the impossible and whatever's left, however improbable, must be true." is a good adage to keep in mind. I do think this is one of the more difficult mysteries though, I had no clue personally until it was laid out for me, but there were no clues missing. Kylra posted:Also, there is the possibility that an actual brave is also a traitor for either part of this whodunit. I don't think that has been ruled out. This is the kind of out of the box thinking that you need to use, basically. You might be wrong or right, but you have to question everything. Bad Seafood posted:There are several competing sets of rules, not all of which are entirely applicable to this show. The big ones though I'd say should not be violated are: 1. I think given how he appears to have been framed you can assume that Adlet is not the culprit, and will be serving as the detective in this mystery. I hesitate to just come out and say he isn't because I love hearing the crazy ideas that involve him being complicit. 2. Hmm... we get pretty close to this actually, but I'm sure the audience can have at least some idea on what methods the culprit used. You won't be seeing a magic teleportation Saint or anything that just completely breaks the information/clues you're using to solve the case. 3. I'm quite confident you'll see every clue, but you may not know a clue when you see it. 4. This is trickier since Adlet's basically solving a mystery while in the middle of a war zone, and also relying on on-the-fly interrogations to try to figure stuff out. You should get a signal either through Adlet's dialogue or his thoughts that he's pretty drat sure he knows who the seventh is, but in this stressful situation even he is probably not going to be 100% sure. What Adlet sees, does, and thinks is the truth as he sees it in that moment. Also, you may want to think of this as two separate mysteries: -How did the seventh trigger the Illusion Barrier? -Who is the seventh? They certainly seem to be linked, but you can determine the method separately from the person who had the motive, means and opportunity to use that method. NowonSA fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Aug 10, 2015 |
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Aug 10, 2015 00:17
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NowonSA posted:She might have been past the pillars in human form when we first say her though, I'd have to rewatch it. Maybe she was just gutting it out if she was, she was acting injured/weak but that might have just been a case of her physical state lending itself to the role she was playing. She's not within the pillars at any time. I had an idea about that and re-watched it and was sad to discover that she never enters the area. This show is very careful about things.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:25
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Nalin posted:She's not within the pillars at any time. I had an idea about that and re-watched it and was sad to discover that she never enters the area. This show is very careful about things. Okay good, that's what I thought, thanks as always to my crack research team.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:28
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