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paradoxGentleman posted:I Googled it, and it's apparently a DNA evolution according to the wiki. Jogress Evolution is what was dubbed as "DNA Digivolution", yes. That only shows how Omegamon is not a Jogress or DNA or whatever you want to call him, he's a fusion. Whatever difference that might be. Because I sure as hell don't know.
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Nov 28, 2015 23:28
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Burkion posted:No, you don't get to side step this. Stingmon and XV-mon have their own ultimate forms on the games, I don't see why they couldn't use them if needed.
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Nov 28, 2015 23:29
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Blaze Dragon posted:Jogress Evolution is what was dubbed as "DNA Digivolution", yes. DNA evolution is when you do the fusion dance while with Omegamon it is their fury, it is their patience, it is a conversation.
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Nov 28, 2015 23:37
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Stingmon and XV-mon have their own ultimate forms on the games, I don't see why they couldn't use them if needed. It'd be more than a little strange for two of the four to keep their Jogress Evolution forms, while the other two get brand new ones. It'd also reduce TK and Kari's role even further in season 2 retroactively which would just be sad
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Nov 28, 2015 23:38
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Only Stingmon would be getting a form that's never been seen before? And people have known about DinoBeemon for years. And that's if they all just don't warp evolve into Imperialdramon, GranKuwagamon, Valkyrimon, and whatever bone they decide to throw Armadimon. quote:That only shows how Omegamon is not a Jogress or DNA or whatever you want to call him, he's a fusion. Whatever difference that might be. Because I sure as hell don't know. Jogress is two digimon evolving together into one of their respective evolved forms by combining. If two digimon are of different levels with one in between them, the result is a level between them both. In some contexts, the resulting Jogress is considered a wholly new being. Fusion is two or more digimon combining into a digimon of the same level without evolving. Sometimes the result is considered a Super Ultimate, but not always, and this is not necessarily another evolutionary level. And then we have DigiXros which combines multiple digimon into a new digimon with a particular one as the core of the combination, with the result not having a level, basically behaving like a super robot. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 23:48
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TFRazorsaw posted:*smacks face* Digifriends, there is no need to fight...
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Nov 29, 2015 02:17
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Why is any of this semantics nonsense important?
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Nov 29, 2015 03:47
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Pastrymancy posted:Why is any of this semantics nonsense important? Because we're anime fans: arguing about pointless details is second nature.
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Nov 29, 2015 04:20
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I feel like that argument went on way longer than it needed to because nobody was being clear with the answers. I don't know TOO much about the Japanese terminology since I grew up with the English dub but what I'm getting from this is that Paildramon is a Jogress Evolution, which is the result of advancing a level (Adult to Perfect) via fusion, while Omnimon is certainly stronger but not actually a higher level, and thus not referred to as Jogress and is simply a fusion. The whole "Super Ultimate" classificiation is a little confusing though, I'm not entirely sure how official that is or which Digimon it applies to.
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Nov 29, 2015 04:45
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mandatory lesbian posted:no-one really seems to treat genocide as the horrible thing it is in 02, while Tamers has a character monologue about committing suicide and the show actually bothers saying that's hosed up. you're right, 02 should be considered darker for that, but since nobody cares about the characters no-one cares about what they do either. I don't really remember the entirety of 02's storyline - I think I missed a chunk on TV following the end of the Kaiser arc, and I DID see the final episode but it made absolutely no sense to me given the context. That said, I agree. You'd think slavery, genocide, and torture would be considered pretty terrible, but it's such a bright and colorful show that maybe that part is overlooked. For Tamers, I was most surprised by Juri losing her mind after her partner is murdered, even though it touches on darker things than that as well. Poor Juri.  Classy Hydra posted:Darkness is more of a motif and atmosphere thing than specifically related to plot details (see the Dark Ocean episodes for a good example of how to pull off a mood without anything especially depressing actually happening, for instance), but uh, if you like the show reaching for surprisingly bleak material... you'll probably be pretty happy with Savers once you get later into the season. Now I just have to find time to fit Savers into my giant pile of TV shows that I want to watch. But I am looking forward to giving Savers another try! Onmi posted:Even that's only for a few episodes. 02's biggest sin is that there's absolutely no tension or stakes. Ken's already taken over the Digital World, but why do any of the new children care? The original chosen didn't really care about anything but getting home, but since they were trapped there they became involved in the struggles of the world. As well, they couldn't go home and were constantly hunted, and even when they did leave the digital world just went and got FUBAR'd to the point they had to go back. In tamers, the digimon attacks are happening in the real world, so there's no way to escape them, and when they finally go to the Digital World, it's because they want to save someone they've grown close to as a friend. I think 02 did a few things right in that it had some fresh, new ideas. I actually liked all the new characters and the Digimental evolution, and I thought it was kind of cool that the kids weren't trapped in the Digital World and could travel at will. I do think you have a point, though, there really wasn't any real tension in bad situations. Ken wasn't my absolute favorite character, but his image song, "Only One" is fantastic. Especially the laugh at the end. I am probably a total dork forever, but since it's almost that time of year, am I the only one who has listened to the Digimon Christmas albums? They are seriously  .
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Nov 29, 2015 04:50
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TriffTshngo posted:I feel like that argument went on way longer than it needed to because nobody was being clear with the answers. I don't know TOO much about the Japanese terminology since I grew up with the English dub but what I'm getting from this is that Paildramon is a Jogress Evolution, which is the result of advancing a level (Adult to Perfect) via fusion, while Omnimon is certainly stronger but not actually a higher level, and thus not referred to as Jogress and is simply a fusion. The whole "Super Ultimate" classificiation is a little confusing though, I'm not entirely sure how official that is or which Digimon it applies to. Well, and then part of the discussion seemed to be to the effect of "Could Armadillomon make his way up to Shakkoumon without ever involving Angemon? Or is Shakkoumon explicitly just a result of the Jogress/DNA Digivolve, and Armadillomon has a completely different Perfect/Ultimate level all of his own?
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Nov 29, 2015 04:52
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TriffTshngo posted:I feel like that argument went on way longer than it needed to because nobody was being clear with the answers. I don't know TOO much about the Japanese terminology since I grew up with the English dub but what I'm getting from this is that Paildramon is a Jogress Evolution, which is the result of advancing a level (Adult to Perfect) via fusion, while Omnimon is certainly stronger but not actually a higher level, and thus not referred to as Jogress and is simply a fusion. The whole "Super Ultimate" classificiation is a little confusing though, I'm not entirely sure how official that is or which Digimon it applies to. To make it simple: it applies to no one outside the Digimon V-Tamer manga. In the manga, it applies to Digimon that have evolved through the Super Ultimate Digimental, namely UlforceV-dramon Future Mode, Daemon Super Ultimate and Arkadimon Super Ultimate.
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Nov 29, 2015 04:52
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TriffTshngo posted:The whole "Super Ultimate" classificiation is a little confusing though, I'm not entirely sure how official that is or which Digimon it applies to. It's a term coined by the first manga (V-Tamer) and it refers at the highest level a digimon can achieve. At that point they are pretty much deities, in theory at least. Most of the different Digimon canons simply use the term to refer about the different modes some Digimon can achieve like ImperialDramon Paladin Mode or Gallantmon Crimson Mode.
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Nov 29, 2015 04:52
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TriffTshngo posted:I feel like that argument went on way longer than it needed to because nobody was being clear with the answers. I don't know TOO much about the Japanese terminology since I grew up with the English dub but what I'm getting from this is that Paildramon is a Jogress Evolution, which is the result of advancing a level (Adult to Perfect) via fusion, while Omnimon is certainly stronger but not actually a higher level, and thus not referred to as Jogress and is simply a fusion. The whole "Super Ultimate" classificiation is a little confusing though, I'm not entirely sure how official that is or which Digimon it applies to. Super Ultimate is kind of bullshit and as confusing as it may seem. Like technically if you want to play semantics, Imperialdramon Fighter Mode is also a Super Perfect, in that it is a Perfect that has further evolved. Gallantmon gained a similar form, Crimson Mode that is of weird status. And then there's the bullshit that is Imperialdramon Paladin Mode. But then there are Ultimates that have been powered up but aren't technically that? Most notably the X forms of Ultimates, like WarGreymon X. It's kind of silly and confusing and it does not help that no two anime have the same unvierse or rules. Some of them pretty much just abandon the levels entirely. As a kid the way I always viewed it was that Apoclymon and Omnimon weren't Mega Level- they transcended that and just weren't any kind of level at all. They were the product of multiple Digimon fusing together and were greater than the sum of their parts. The interesting thing about the Jogress and Armor Digimon is that they seem to be weaker than normal evolved Digimon of the same level with one exception maybe. Neither Cody or Yolie's Jogress Digimon are anywhere near as powerful as MagnaAngemon or Angewomon, despite having Gatomon and Angemon as their partners. Hell I'm not even sure how powerful Paildramon is compared to, say, MegaKabuterimon or Zudomon. And Armor Evolved Digimon are explicitly called out as weaker than normal Champions, which is the big reason why they were abandoned. The exception might be Magnamon, but he was from a special one of a kind and then never seen again Golden Digi Egg, and he was still mostly losing to Kimeramon until Wormmon suicide charged him.
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Nov 29, 2015 04:54
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Burkion posted:The exception might be Magnamon, but he was from a special one of a kind and then never seen again Golden Digi Egg, and he was still mostly losing to Kimeramon until Wormmon suicide charged him. Magnamon got serious power boost when he was made a member of the Royal Knights and now is supposed to be slightly more powerful than your average Mega (but still he's one of the weakest knights).
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Nov 29, 2015 04:59
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Magnamon got serious power boost when he was made a member of the Royal Knights and now is supposed to be slightly more powerful than your average Mega (but still he's one of the weakest knights). I have no idea how I feel about that. Mind I also have no idea how powerful Kimeramon is supposed to be, considering he's made up of Ultimate and Champion level Digimon, some of whom are ridiculously powerful in their own right. I guess good for Magnamon- I keep forgetting he's some how a Royal Knight.
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Nov 29, 2015 05:04
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Burkion posted:I have no idea how I feel about that. Popularity power, for years the only Knights we knew were the final evolutions of the protagonist's digimons 
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Nov 29, 2015 05:06
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Burkion posted:Super Ultimate is kind of bullshit and as confusing as it may seem. Yeah Super-Ultimate is a confusing term, I usually just list Ultimates evolving into other Ultimates as a Burst Mode if it doesn't involve Jogress Also in retrospect yeah the Armor Evolutions and 02 Jogresses were pretty wimpy, which probably explains why Tamers, Frontier, and Savers all used a lot of the Armor Evolutions as fight fodder(heck Tamers had them regularly get whooped by Child stages, but then power levels were especially screwy in Tamers due to Data Absorption being used rather heavily) Burkion posted:I have no idea how I feel about that. Way I see it 02 Kimeramon is a lot more powerful than what a "normal" example of his type would be due to Ken integrating some of Adventure Devimon's data, since Devimon also artificially inflated his own power levels by a lot, not to mention if you buy into the Wonderswan games theory that Millenniummon and Apocalymon created each other in a very complex space-time feedback loop then Kimeramon's very high power level makes even more sense
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Nov 29, 2015 05:36
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Finally got around to watching. My main takeaway is that Mimi's way too cool to be hanging out with this group.
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Nov 29, 2015 05:58
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Ice Mongoose posted:Finally got around to watching. My main takeaway is that Mimi's way too cool to be hanging out with this group. Also Izzy's fine too, being a massive dork and making bank holding down a real job.
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Nov 29, 2015 06:04
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Digimon powerlevel and semantics of Jogress/DNA thread ftmfw
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Nov 29, 2015 06:10
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quote:Neither Cody or Yolie's Jogress Digimon are anywhere near as powerful as MagnaAngemon or Angewomon, despite having Gatomon and Angemon as their partners. Hell I'm not even sure how powerful Paildramon is compared to, say, MegaKabuterimon or Zudomon. That's honestly your bias talking, I think. Because Shakkoumon endured absorbing an attack from Demon, who is clearly the strongest single antagonist in the Adventure continuity short of MAYBE BelialVamdemon and regularly holds up in combat against other Ultimate-level foes like the aforementioned and BlackWarGreymon. HolyAngemon, meanwhile, got a Skull Hammer to the face and went down like a chump. They're as strong as other Perfects are, they're just rarely out to actually kill their opponents. EDIT - Also, Magnamon's profile has said he's as strong as an Ultimate since his introduction. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Nov 29, 2015 |
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Nov 29, 2015 06:17
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TFRazorsaw posted:That's honestly your bias talking, I think. Because Shakkoumon endured absorbing an attack from Demon, who is clearly the strongest single antagonist in the Adventure continuity short of MAYBE BelialVamdemon and regularly holds up in combat against other Ultimate-level foes like the aforementioned and BlackWarGreymon. You know. I'm not touching this. I don't know what drives you to defend season 2 as much as you do, but I'm not getting into a discussion about power levels of Digimon. Like I could. I really could. I just really do not see the point in furthering this nonsense. The only thing I will respond to is the fact that no, Magnamon has not been stated to be as strong as an Ultimate since his introduction- he was stated to be as strong as a Perfect, at least in season 2. I don't know if the expanded material said otherwise but the EU of the Digimon franchise is a fractured, broken, ugly mess that makes no sense when looked at together. Magnamon took on a Perfect level enemy (in theory anyways) and I never said anything against him being that powerful. Now if you were using the dub term for Ultimate THERE, then that's just confusing and you don't seem to type to use Dub terms generally anyways.
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Nov 29, 2015 06:58
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I was talking about his profile, yes. I thought that was what was relevant, since we're talking about other media that have run with the idea of Magnamon running with Ultimates, and you were acting that this was born solely out of his role in season 2 and like it was undeserved. It was part of his conceptual history from the start. Also, I said "his profile", so I don't see why you'd think I was talking about the show. As for season 2, dude. I've said before, up and down, that it has problems. But for better or worse, it's something that happened, and it's part of what tri is building off of. I'd rather they treat these characters honestly and not succumb to what is basically fandom pandering, and, to be honest, a lot of people undersell the capabilities of the season 2 characters because they come from a season that they happen to dislike while pumping up the ones that are from the first and are undisputed fan favorites. Paildramon, Shakkoumon, and Silphymon are weaker because they're from "the bad season", despite what's actually shown on screen. HolyAngemon is as strong as an Ultimate because he's popular and because they deliberately ignore that he had help doing it (where's Zudomon's credit for being so strong when he helped finish off MetalEtemon?). It gets tiresome.
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Nov 29, 2015 07:07
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Burkion posted:And Armor Evolved Digimon are explicitly called out as weaker than normal Champions, which is the big reason why they were abandoned. 
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Nov 29, 2015 07:14
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Dr Pepper posted:Wait I had always had the impression that it was the other way around, an Armor Digimon was at a power level between Champion and Ultimate.
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Nov 29, 2015 07:17
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Twiddy posted:Nope, armors blow. Except in Digimon Digital Card Battle for PS1 when you could tack on +200 power bonuses to your partners and instantly armor digivolve them and have absurdly powerful Flamedramons and Digmons wrecking everyone's poo poo.
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Nov 29, 2015 07:20
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TFRazorsaw posted:Paildramon, Shakkoumon, and Silphymon are weaker because they're from "the bad season", despite what's actually shown on screen. HolyAngemon is as strong as an Ultimate because he's popular and because they deliberately ignore that he had help doing it (where's Zudomon's credit for being so strong when he helped finish off MetalEtemon?). It gets tiresome. That's not why I think they're weaker- specifically why Silphymon and Shakkoumon are weaker. Also, I am the worst person in the world to call out the Zudomon thing on since I specifically called him out as one of the most powerful of the Perfects from season 1. I totally think he could have defeated Metal Etemon on his own, though it likely would have killed him. MagnaAngemon is as powerful as an Ultimate because he is consistently shown to be. In two showings, he takes on an Ultimate level Digimon that is shown to be far stronger than normal, Piedmon and BlackWarGreymon, and physically overpower them. Shakkoumon, on the flip side, could not defeat or even stall BWG- his introduction showed him just getting defeated out right. While BWG 'defeated' MagnaAngemon, he had to destroy his power source to do so. The other fight, with Skull Satanmon, is an obvious jobbing moment that exists for only one reason- to give Davis the excuse to get Imperialdramon Fighter Mode. Literally that's all it was about. The other two fights Magna Angemon was involved in, he either did extremely little, such as his fight against Apoclymon, or literally did nothing at all, the fight against BelialMyotismon. He literally just floated around and did NOTHING, because MagnaAngemon is a Plot Specific kind of character and either is going to win the day or do nothing. When he has all of one bad showing, and that was done specifically so Davis could get a power up, I hold that against the writing. And Silphymon just never did...anything of note. Shakkoumon at least could absorb attacks even if he wasn't that impressive otherwise- Silphymon mostly just kind of didn't do much of anything the entire season. And to be fair to season 2, for lack of a better phrase, that wasn't the Digimon's fault. A huge part of it is the fact that season 2 could easily be re-written to be the Davis (and ken) show 24/7, which includes victories in battle and everything. And another part is that Season 2 suffered from the same problem that Frontier had- the heroes kept losing. Black War Greymon stomped all over the heroes to the point where Magna Angemon almost beating him single handed DOES stand out as a powerful moment. War Greymon and Imperialdramon together could only barely draw even against the guy. And MagnaAngemon didn't even have a supposed type advantage either. When BWG wasn't wrecking house, the utterly unimpressive Mummymon and Arukiniemon tended to hold their own or better against them, despite not being as powerful as many of the one off Season 1 villains. It's entirely the lowered difficulty thing rearing its ugly head. The danger they faced was much less than the season 1 cast, and the powers of their enemies were similarly lower. The season 1 cast ended up throwing down with, what, 6 Mega levels and whatever Apoclymon counts as? Apoclymon who was implied to be able to destroy two different universes with his suicide attack? By comparison the season 2 cast only ever fought three Mega Levels- BWG, who they never beat, Demon, who they never beat, and Vamdemon again, who came off as weaker than he was before, but they did kill him. So yeah. I think the season 2 cast, outside of Davis, comes off as much weaker than the season 1 cast. They just don't get as many cool moments and they don't fight as powerful of foes. Davis is the exception because he's the leader and all of the bullshit writing tropes involved that season 1 managed to avoid hit season 2 hard.
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Nov 29, 2015 07:36
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The cool clay doll guy was the best digimon, and should come back and be the best because he looked unique and cool.
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Nov 29, 2015 07:52
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I posted earlier in the thread that HolyAngemon doesn't defeat Piemon, and while an above average Digimon he never success in defeating an Ultimate on his own. He 1) knocks Piemon down, and 2) only defeats him when WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon knock him into the Heaven's Gate. And Piemon is an evil species Digimon, meaning HolyAngemon's attacks do extra damage to him. He would not have won that fight on his own. SkullSatamon was, like the rest of the Demon Corps, incredibly strong, stated to be such, had an ability that has a special effect, and - on top of all that - the evil <-> holy effect goes both ways. It's not jobbing. This is all stuff that's made explicit in the show. BlackWarGreymon's fight didn't end normally, and so it's pretty much impossible to use that fight as a gauge of ANYTHING. On top of that, as a Digimon born from Dark Towers, it's pretty much a given that the same effect that applies to Piemon applies to him. Shakkoumon does admirably against BlackWarGreymon, especially considering that in Adventure, newly evolved Perfects are shown to have a limited amount of time they can stay active after evolving for the first time. And THEN he immediately absorbs BlackWarGreymon's primary attack, and visibly hurts him afterward. The three collectively then break his armor and seriously injure him - No group of Perfects alone EVER achieved this on an Ultimate once in the Adventure continuity even ACHIEVES that much, and are usually beaten whenever WarGreymon, MetalGarurumon, or SaberLeomon are involved. Shakkoumon and the others are physically knocked to the ground but they are never devolved by him. So. Yeah. You're kinda misrepresenting that by saying "he's defeated left and right."
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Nov 29, 2015 09:36
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Can we stop being worse than the Type-Moon thread, please?KittyEmpress posted:The cool clay doll guy was the best digimon, and should come back and be the best because he looked unique and cool. I will accept this opinion, however. Honestly, I liked all the Jogress digimon. They had neat designs, and as a kid I remember being rather disappointed the others didn't get evolutions like Paildramon did. I especially liked how they didn't look like out-and-out composite fusions, but rather new evolutions taking traits from both sides.
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Nov 29, 2015 10:48
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This discussion just keeps reminding me that 02 is the worst, because if it wasn't the worst, there wouldn't be a need for these posts.
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Nov 29, 2015 11:13
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Whatever. I'll stop.
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Nov 29, 2015 12:05
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TriffTshngo posted:Except in Digimon Digital Card Battle for PS1 when you could tack on +200 power bonuses to your partners and instantly armor digivolve them and have absurdly powerful Flamedramons and Digmons wrecking everyone's poo poo. Digmon really is great in that game. A 400 something attack that nobody can stop because almost no one has "triangle to 0" specials means you can take down at least two Rookies before going down, and in a HP incresing deck like the one I had it could very well solo an opponent. I think the other Veemon Armor evolution kinda sucked? But I am not sure. I do know that I found most Darkness Digimon to be incredibly cool and that poor electric wolf thing looked bad in comparison.
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Nov 29, 2015 12:41
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Re: Digimon Power Levels I don't think the show supports the idea of different digivolution levels being 100% accurate power brackets very well at all. Yeah, generally speaking a Champion/Adult is going to be weaker than an Ultimate/Perfect, but you're always going to have the outliers like the Angemon line. Look at the levels as guidelines rather than absolute fact and everything suddenly makes a bit more sense.
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Nov 29, 2015 13:23
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jivjov posted:Re: Digimon Power Levels This rule also applies to literally anything else with power levels.
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Nov 29, 2015 13:28
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paradoxGentleman posted:This rule also applies to literally anything else with power levels. I think it's just especially applicable to Digimon because there's not a strict numerical component. With something like, say, DBZ the power levels are presented in such a way that there is (at least ostensibly) a lineal and granular progression. With Digimon, there only 4 power brackets (+2 if you want to count the baby levels, +?? if you want to count every time they invent a new sidegrade or post-Mega form).
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Nov 29, 2015 13:35
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TriffTshngo posted:Except in Digimon Digital Card Battle for PS1 when you could tack on +200 power bonuses to your partners and instantly armor digivolve them and have absurdly powerful Flamedramons and Digmons wrecking everyone's poo poo. Oh hell yes. The Armors were pretty useless at the beginning of the game (slight power boost, below Adult, and couldn't evolve), but since they power up alongside their base Partner forms with both levels and parts, they could become ridiculous. By the lategame my Fladramon's O move was stronger than several Perfects (the highest level in the game, for those who haven't played it), with his triangle not falling too far behind, and with no need to gather DP or anything, it was awesome. Sure, he had the HP of a wet paper towel, but who cares? Pure Red deck, I have all the Birdramon and Garudamon for First Strike I'll ever want. paradoxGentleman posted:Digmon really is great in that game. A 400 something attack that nobody can stop because almost no one has "triangle to 0" specials means you can take down at least two Rookies before going down, and in a HP incresing deck like the one I had it could very well solo an opponent. Lighdramon was pretty lame, yeah. His stats didn't aim for FULL POWER like V-mon should, so there was no reason whatsoever to use him. In general, I thought the "beast" Armors were much worse than the "human" ones in every case. That said, V-mon was the only one with three Armor Evolutions in the game, and Magnamon was great. Too bad you got him from literally the very last fight in the game.
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Nov 29, 2015 14:45
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Really, the big thing with digimon levels is that, although derived from a product that was 'Tamagotchi but for boys', they provide a very easy framework for narrative progression and reward, especially since its a progression that's common to the cast - once you've established it for one, its in theory possible for all the others (discounting the lead, and occasionally the rival, getting something super special awesome all to themselves). Any further power ups are effectively established by the framework, diminishing the issue of it feeling like they're pulling it out of their rear end when this year's variant of Greymon turns around a desperate battle with a new form. So its great for that. But its kinda terrible for direct comparisons to others within that system (though honestly most power up transformations are in general), especially when the creators, in a bid to make the current stars more unique and special than their predecessors, add 'different' methods whilst technically not expanding the system or clarifying their exact place in the current one. Add in the foibles of general fiction, and it gets even harder to tell.
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Nov 29, 2015 14:47
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I think everyone in this thread is showing too much of their power level and should stop imo. I watched the first 3 episodes(?) of this and about to watch the last one, and aside from being disappointed that we won't get anything new until March or April, I thoroughly enjoyed this. When that intro hit in the first episode it sent me back (LATINO DIGIMON FANS UNITE). So loving awesome.
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Nov 29, 2015 15:50
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