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I'd be interested in reading your argument too.
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Nov 13, 2015 00:58
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Hand Knit posted:So I've been thinking about this description of Graver, and I think there's a part of Graver's Dudishness that hasn't been brought up yet. Sicario presents "just going with it" as something that can potentially be really bad. Most obviously, there's Macer refusing to 'just go with it' with whatever Graver and Alejandro are trying to do. But I think that something similar is also present in Graver's general philosophy: the world is 'just' a certain way so you have to just go with it; cartels and cartel violence are inevitable so the most that one can hope to achieve is to be in a good position relative to that violence. This is contrasted with sexual violence committed by the delta guys — "just lay back and let it happen." It's something that happens a couple times in the movie in a funny way, too, when Kate asks if there's any food on the plane, he says: "There's some bitchin' peanuts in the back, but it's a serve yourself kind of deal." This sounds absurd but we see the empty peanuts later, just like we see her smoking Indian Creek cigarettes. There's no real reason to show that she in fact ate some peanuts on the plane, just like Graver suggests that she help herself to. The empty packet of peanuts kind of recalls No Country (remember how evil an uncrinkling plastic package of peanuts seemed there), but it's also a little joke on what Graver says earlier. He is kidding around, he's relaxed, but he is in the ultimate position of power and she takes him totally seriously because he is just the way the world is. He doesn't have to be a Man In Black, in fact it's better that he's not. "gently caress it! Yes! That's your answer. That's your answer for everything! Tattoo it on your forehead!" As we know, she is Silvio, explicitly in the editing but also the Indian Creek cigarettes underline this. She is a cop who is so powerless her only role is to warm a seat. Kate's presence is in service of a legal formality, Silvio's job is to ferry drugs. Still, they both make 'good cops'. These are both little things but it's important to show that she partakes, she 'goes with it' and we see where it gets her (and us too, for that matter, because we want to ride along). In Silvio's case, this is presented as literally life or death, but just as with the paralleling of lead characters in Capt. Phillips, for Kate, it's careerism. That is life or death. Not continually advancing, not being a company man, etc. is a social death. She is totally willing to act ethically within the law, but not act radically on her ethics. She does not compromise, she is compromised all because she 'lets it happen'. Then there's all the Kurtz stuff where you could come at from any angle, 'ethical warlordism', 'controlled chaos' and all that. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 20:44
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Saw it again and this time (when I was more concerned about what was happening in the frame vs the plot) the allusions to sexual violence, especially against women, stood out plain as day. They were literally everywhere. The scene where they visit the groups of detainees (headed wherever, over the border? to ICE camps?) remained poignant. And this film definitely makes you dwell on each single instance of a legal drug reference, Matt's whiskey hands, cigarette after cigarette, as if to make a viewer question why certain drugs are prohibited while others are accepted.
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Nov 15, 2015 21:42
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Viginti posted:I also took that 'no-one will hear about this' line as a follow-up to the chat about the hanging bodies. The media will be told and will tell that some violent mexican criminals attacked heroic americans and lost, if they're told anything at all. It will be positioned as a righteous act, and therefore there's nothing to write about; Blunt knows that they provoked it, that they shot first, that they were in control and that the story isn't that simple but no-one else will. They shot first because a bunch of armed cartel goons didn't comply with an order to disarm and then tried to get out of their vehicles while still armed. Can't really see a "better" way that could have gone.
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Dec 21, 2015 23:19
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:I think there's a lot made of the general attitude and environment of violence against women in the film, too. Villanueve is no stranger to discussing said themes (see Polytechnique for anyone accusing him of anti-feminist sentiment, or hell, the entirety of Enemy), and he's very straightforward with the idea that even though US military force is 'equal opportunity' its central power structure is built exclusively on the principles of the white male boy's club. No time for irrationality or hysterical fits of morality and due process, play along or be stomped. Or, better yet, in a scene that mirrors Macer's attempted sexual assault (and the systemic sexual assault of women in both Mexican and American culture)...Josh Brolin puts a knee to her neck and tells her to be quiet and stop moving. She's forcefully subdued, as is her black male partner to the tune of 'just let it happen.' She and her partner are subdued because she physically assaults Josh Brolin's character.
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Dec 21, 2015 23:31
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This movie is going to look tits on BluRay.
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Dec 22, 2015 05:43
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am0kgonzo posted:They shot first because a bunch of armed cartel goons didn't comply with an order to disarm and then tried to get out of their vehicles while still armed. am0kgonzo posted:She and her partner are subdued because she physically assaults Josh Brolin's character. Correct, but missing the point. The mere facts of what happened don't tell us anything interesting. Much more important is why and how, and what meanings are attached to the actions.
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Dec 22, 2015 06:43
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:Correct, but missing the point. The mere facts of what happened don't tell us anything interesting. Much more important is why and how, and what meanings are attached to the actions. Ignoring the way those scenes actually play out on screen to make a point isn't very interesting.
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Dec 22, 2015 06:54
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am0kgonzo posted:Ignoring the way those scenes actually play out on screen to make a point isn't very interesting. Oh god give me a loving break.
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Dec 22, 2015 07:46
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Oh god give me a loving break. No.
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Dec 22, 2015 08:12
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:Correct, but missing the point. The mere facts of what happened don't tell us anything interesting. Much more important is why and how, and what meanings are attached to the actions. I think you want to see way more into this than there really is.
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Dec 22, 2015 15:23
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I've liked the discussion in this thread far more than I actually liked the movie. Great atmosphere, wonderful themes as many of you have explained, but once the film was over I just felt empty about it. It was good in many regards, but I didn't feel emotionally attached to anything that happened or happens. Good discussion y'all.
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Dec 22, 2015 16:09
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I think the biggest flaw is that it showed only one side of the conflict. At the end, Alarcón states that "Are we really that much worse than the people you work for? Who do you think we learned it from?", but with what's shown in the movie as a viewer I had a real hard time to make that comparison (from what we were shown in the movie). Don't get me wrong though, I enjoyed the movie immensely. But it doesn't make it any more or less than your run of the mill CIA/Black Ops movie to me.
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Dec 22, 2015 16:58
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Batham posted:Don't get me wrong though, I enjoyed the movie immensely. But it doesn't make it any more or less than your run of the mill CIA/Black Ops movie to me. I wish every run of the mill Black Ops movie was anywhere near as good as this movie.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:54
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I wish every run of the mill Black Ops movie was anywhere near as good as this movie. The plot certainly is, everything else is far above above run of the mill though. Unfortunately, it won't be remembered for any of those.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:14
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Batham posted:I think you want to see way more into this than there really is. Actually, I want to see everything that is present in the film, not only the most basic plot points. If you're telling me that there isn't significance to a male protagonist being told "Just lay back, baby. Let it happen." by someone who has their boot on his chest in a film where a female protagonist is violently assaulted while engaged in sexual activity, then you're missing a lot of the text of the film, let alone the subtext.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:15
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Batham posted:The plot certainly is, everything else is far above above run of the mill though. Unfortunately, it won't be remembered for any of those. Maybe, but admittedly I've never really been concerned about that, especially now that it's unlikely a feature film released to theatres will just get lost or deleted or whatever.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:20
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:Actually, I want to see everything that is present in the film, not only the most basic plot points. If you're telling me that there isn't significance to a male protagonist being told "Just lay back, baby. Let it happen." by someone who has their boot on his chest in a film where a female protagonist is violently assaulted while engaged in sexual activity, then you're missing a lot of the text of the film, let alone the subtext. Again, I think you're seeing things you want to see in that scene rather than what's there. It's cool though, each to his or her own opinion.
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Dec 22, 2015 21:30
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I'm gonna have to go with Terrorist Fistbump on this one. There is a lot of subtext in this film, and almost all of it is about power and control through application of force and violence. Next you're gonna tell me that Alejandro's literally force his crotch right up into that dudes face he was interrogating wasn't an act of dominance.
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Dec 22, 2015 21:34
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Batham posted:Again, I think you're seeing things you want to see in that scene rather than what's there. It's cool though, each to his or her own opinion.
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Dec 22, 2015 21:45
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Snak posted:I'm gonna have to go with Terrorist Fistbump on this one. Nope, never said that and never will. It's pretty clear in that scene. Linking them being subdued after striking out with the rape scene however (or rather the same meaning), nope. Batham fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 21:55
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It's not Literally About Rape it's more about patriarchal power structures, kate strikes out at matt and is immediately and violently subdued, the subtext is fairly clear. Kate being a woman surrounded by beefhead idiot men is kiiiiiiind of important.
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Dec 23, 2015 00:52
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It's entertaining that the low-drag high-speed operators are douche-bros, and the casual way the movie is like, "yeah, and they're basically rapists too" is funny enough that it's a shame to have it go over your head, but such is comedy.
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Dec 23, 2015 00:56
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I just don't understand how "let it happen" in the context of holding someone down is not an allusion to rape culture/rapist mindset.
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Dec 23, 2015 01:34
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Well, I suppose it's not if you're either an apologist or a loving moron. Several of those on this page
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Dec 23, 2015 03:31
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Well, I suppose it's not if you're either an apologist or a loving moron. Several of those on this page  Amazing how people can get worked up about a movie.
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Dec 23, 2015 13:17
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Batham posted:
Not at all.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:18
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*ignores the fact it is said to a man*
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Dec 23, 2015 22:37
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Judakel posted:*ignores the fact it is said to a man* More than one man is sexually menaced in this film by another man.
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Dec 23, 2015 22:47
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Correct.
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Dec 24, 2015 01:26
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Batham posted:Nope, never said that and never will. It's pretty clear in that scene. Linking them being subdued after striking out with the rape scene however (or rather the same meaning), nope. Judakel posted:Correct.
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Dec 24, 2015 07:24
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Well, I suppose it's not if you're either an apologist or a loving moron. Several of those on this page I think you might be retarded?
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Dec 24, 2015 20:23
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Apparently they are working on a sequel that focuses on Benicio del Toro. http://variety.com/2015/film/box-office/sicario-sequel-benicio-del-toro-lionsgate-1201599035/
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Dec 25, 2015 00:27
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Just saw this. Probably one of my favorite movies of all time now. I read that the director and Roger Deakins are reuniting for Blade Runner 2 which makes me stupidly excited.
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Dec 25, 2015 01:49
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keyframe posted:Just saw this. Probably one of my favorite movies of all time now. I read that the director and Roger Deakins are reuniting for Blade Runner 2 which makes me stupidly excited. Villanueve is also doing Ted Chiang's The Story of Your Life, he might be my favorite director right now.
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Dec 25, 2015 03:02
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Apparently they are working on a sequel that focuses on Benicio del Toro. Yeah this was announced awhile back. Actually before the movie even came out in wide release. It's how I knew he was the titular sicario. I'm not super thrilled about it, because I feel like Sicario is a perfectly self-contained film, and I liked the split protagonism between Blunt and del Toro. But obviously I'm gonna keep an open mind.
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Dec 25, 2015 06:16
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Snak posted:Yeah this was announced awhile back. Actually before the movie even came out in wide release. It's how I knew he was the titular sicario. I'm not super thrilled about it, because I feel like Sicario is a perfectly self-contained film, and I liked the split protagonism between Blunt and del Toro. Yeah, I feel the same way. VVVVVVVVV BMD has some nice articles here and there BeanpolePeckerwood fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Dec 25, 2015 |
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Dec 25, 2015 09:13
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This article on how the movie uses sexual assault as a key theme certainly rang true with what I recall of it. http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/11/18/sicario-and-the-value-of-depicting-rape-in-abstract
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Dec 25, 2015 10:11
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Martman posted:You never followed up on how the characters are underdeveloped. I never explained rain either.
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Dec 25, 2015 17:08
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Judakel posted:I never explained rain either.
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Dec 26, 2015 00:55
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