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Hum right, I guess I translated it without thinking. It's a good saying though. Means don't get stuck on a single thing. Once you start down the 2nd hand path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
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Jan 27, 2016 16:46
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MickRaider posted:Not many other tools are such a staple of a woodworkers shop though. Only one of my woodworking friends over here has a table saw. No one else that I know has one. This obviously has to do with the cost of the machine but also with space coming at a premium here. Every one of my woodworking friends has a track saw or a beefy circular saw with a homemade track. For making repeat cuts, a good rip guide on a handheld saw works fine. As for safety, I subscribe to the theory that things can be made fool proof, but they can't be made damned fool proof. I've seen idiots cut themselves in the leg with a handsaw because they just don't pay attention to what they do, nor do they have a plan of attack. I've lent my circular saw to one of my brother's best friends. Who managed to break the blade, when all he was going to cut was a 35mm particle board kitchen work top. A 70cm straight cut. He managed to gently caress it up so bad that a 165 euro blade broke during that cut. He figured that because he'd used a 300w jigsaw in the past, he could handle a 1800w track saw. He even blamed the saw for his incompetence. Of course it was the saw that deliberately kicked back, it had nothing to do with him not using it properly.
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Jan 27, 2016 17:05
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Let's do this: Buy the 1200 table saw Sell it to me for 2-3. Best of both worlds. Helll, I can even lend you a hand on moving it, by shipping it directly to me.
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Jan 27, 2016 17:12
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that's about what I figured it to be.. Don't get stuck buying something to buy it and have it be crap / not work. basically
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Jan 27, 2016 17:27
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tater_salad posted:My initial question was "is the delta 10.inch contractor saw for $600 worth it/a decent saw for a weekend warrior who has space constraints" I think it is yes and it's exactly the situation I'm in. My basement workshop is only like 15x20 so a little smaller than one side of a two car garage and it's dead simple to move it around while I work with other things. It's very accurate after careful setup. I've mentioned before the only thing I don't like is the fence rail comes in two pieces to fit in the box so you have to take your time to get it lined up correctly during setup. But after that it's not an issue. Also accessories aren't as readily available but you can use a dado stack and can find zero clearance plates on Amazon if you look hard enough. I'm no expert but I don't regret the purchase at all unlike my harbor freight mitre saw. 
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Jan 27, 2016 17:59
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Hubis posted:As for the track saw, yeah that's something I'm looking into now. I've already got a quite serviceable circular saw, so I'm trying to find an accessory to leverage that rather than get another specialized tool. If you really want to make use of an existing circular saw, there's the EZSmart Track Saw System. The major downside of it is that you lose almost a full inch of cutting depth; with my saw (Milwaukee 6390), it ends up being about 1/16" short of cutting through 2x dimensional lumber, so I ultimately decided to go for the Makita track saw instead. It's not really another specialized tool; the only thing my old circular saw can do that the Makita can't is cut 4/16" of an inch deeper, while even without a rail, the Makita has extremely good dust collection, much lower cutting clearances, and plunge cutting going for it. It also has a separate, 1/16" depth stop, so you can quickly make a scoring cut without adjusting your depth of cut (further reducing tear out).
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Jan 27, 2016 17:59
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His Divine Shadow posted:About that swedish pilar drill a few pages back. I asked my friend who knows old machines such as these like the back of his hands and he said it was basically one of the best pilar drills made in it's size class. He spotted some broken parts and said it's value in this state is around 800 euros. Renovated it should be around 1500 euros. In the Benelux and NRW Germany, tools like that are cheap as chips.
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Jan 27, 2016 18:49
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Deedle posted:...because they just don't pay attention to what they do, nor do they have a plan of attack. Sorry, Me story. Years ago I was hired along with 2 other guys for a job. The owner intended to keep only one of us but we didn't know that, or at least I didn't know that. A month later he fires a guy then calls me to the office and tells me I was almost fired a number of times because I stood around staring into space all the time. But my output was on par with the other guys and I had almost no mistakes, he was mystified. I told him it was because I walked through every job in my mind from start to finish, anticipating any problems, then executed. I got the job. I find that when I do that with woodworking projects they go a lot smoother.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:16
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Deedle posted:drat, I should start a business buying cheap 3 phase tools, refurbish them and sell them to Scandinavian woodworkers. I got the impression this was a higher grade of quality and construction, capable of serious metalwork. Lots of cheap 3-phase drill presses here too.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:22
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wormil posted:It is possible to operate a TS safely and every time you make a cut, you make that choice -- be safe and focus on the task; or don't. The problem is, the human brain is simply not suited to this. It doesn't want to "waste" focus on simple, repetitive tasks, it wants to optimize, make your actions simple and mechanical so that your focus can be spent elsewhere. Even the most dedicated, attentive person will eventually slip up.... wormil posted:I'm really paranoid about it. One day I was cutting and realized I wasn't 100% focused on the task. I got the cold sweats and stopped working for awhile; it actually scared me. And there you have it. Developing and adhering good habits, and always putting forth serious effort to focus will make you less likely to slip up and less likely to be injured when you do, but it can still happen. Admonishing people to "be careful" is basically never effective at creating a real increase in safety. Even if there is a short term improvement, people quickly fall back into habits. Actual safety needs to be built into the systems and procedures you use, without depending upon the caution and attentiveness of a single individual.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:45
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Most of the safety systems on cheaper table saws aren't there to protect you, the user. They are there to protect the company making them from getting sued. That's why they are so clumsy and people often remove them. Those stupid pawls, those blade guards mounted on riving knives that make it impossible to do a non-through cut without removing them, splitters that don't raise/lower or tilt with the blade. It all just gets in the way and eventually stops being used. The setup that I have come to the conclusion is the optimal one is a simple riving knife that sits below the blade and a blade guard mounted on an overhead arm that can be raised or lowered as needed. This is the least fussy and most effective setup IMO. But it'd probably add a lot to the price of a new saw so it'll likely never become standard. A unifence style solution over a biesemeyer fence would also be good. One of the best habits to adapt is using those swan neck style push sticks all the time.
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Jan 27, 2016 20:01
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I've got like 5 of those sticks laying around my garage on each shelf unit my standing tool box and on a hook on my saw.. I bought them before I used the saw 3x and decided an underpowered saw with no safety features and an on off button out of immediate reach was unsafe.
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Jan 27, 2016 20:08
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You can also make them: https://woodgears.ca/table_saw/pushsticks.html I keep linking to woodgears a lot, but it was the site that got me into woodworking. Still, use plywood, not real wood.
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Jan 27, 2016 20:17
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tater_salad posted:I've got like 5 of those sticks laying around my garage on each shelf unit my standing tool box and on a hook on my saw.. I bought them before I used the saw 3x and decided an underpowered saw with no safety features and an on off button out of immediate reach was unsafe. Even if the button were convenient and you hand your finger on it ready to push, by the time your brain has figured out you need to push it, the saw will have already eaten your hand/arm/face or kicked a workpiece through your sternum. Human reactions are nowhere near fast enough to respond to a power tool going bad before it does any damage. That's why there's so much focus on making certain that you aren't personally applying any force towards the blade, so if/when you slip you won't touch it.
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Jan 27, 2016 20:24
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With all of this safety talk, I called up my local Rockler to inquire about a table saw safety class. Apparently they don't have an instructor currently, so if anyone in the Seattle area wants to teach at Rockler, look into the Northgate location.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:03
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To the guys woodworking in your basement, do you all have dust collection systems? I work in my garage, and keep as much as I can on wheels. Wheeling things out into the driveway to work when it's not too cold. Even running the chop saw with a vacuum attachment tends to give the garage a nice dusting... Does a dust collection system really solve that, or are you just dealing with it?
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Jan 27, 2016 21:32
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His Divine Shadow posted:About that swedish pilar drill a few pages back. I asked my friend who knows old machines such as these like the back of his hands and he said it was basically one of the best pilar drills made in it's size class. He spotted some broken parts and said it's value in this state is around 800 euros. Renovated it should be around 1500 euros. My 50 euro bid would probably be printed out and hung on the wall for posterity. On the plus side, today I picked up an early 1900's Disston No.7 ripsaw for 9 euros, and a broken-handled carcase saw for 50 cents. I have a nice piece of applewood that will make a great replacement handle.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:38
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Even if the button were convenient and you hand your finger on it ready to push, by the time your brain has figured out you need to push it, the saw will have already eaten your hand/arm/face or kicked a workpiece through your sternum. Human reactions are nowhere near fast enough to respond to a power tool going bad before it does any damage. That's why there's so much focus on making certain that you aren't personally applying any force towards the blade, so if/when you slip you won't touch it. Agreed I can't turn it off when an emergency arises. My issue is turning it down once I've completed my cut, it's a lot harder to turn off once the cut is done, and since there's no riving knife, or guard the scrap piece of work has the proclivity to sit right there near the blade, leavig the potential for wood based projectiles quite high. since I'd need to bend down with my face parts in front of said potential projectile to reach the tiny on off switch on the left side of the saw I plug it into a power strip and use my foot to turn it off while keeping clear of any flying treebits.
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Jan 27, 2016 22:55
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bobua posted:To the guys woodworking in your basement, do you all have dust collection systems? I work in my garage, and keep as much as I can on wheels. Wheeling things out into the driveway to work when it's not too cold. Even running the chop saw with a vacuum attachment tends to give the garage a nice dusting... I wear a mask sometimes and mostly just deal with it. I will die alone coughing. I have plastic up around the shop though to keep it from spreading everywhere else in the basement/house. Regarding safety, I'm not afraid of my tablesaw only my router which is a death motor.
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Jan 27, 2016 23:25
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His Divine Shadow posted:You can also make them: These are awesome push sticks. I made 4 of them a little while back and I'll use them for anything that's fairly weird on the tablesaw. For narrower ripcuts, I use this thing http://www.amazon.com/Tool-Designs-10230-Power-Hands/dp/B001C4O92I which is also great and has a ton of grip.
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Jan 27, 2016 23:35
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His Divine Shadow posted:You can also make them: TooMuchAbstraction posted:Even if the button were convenient and you hand your finger on it ready to push, by the time your brain has figured out you need to push it, the saw will have already eaten your hand/arm/face or kicked a workpiece through your sternum. Human reactions are nowhere near fast enough to respond to a power tool going bad before it does any damage. That's why there's so much focus on making certain that you aren't personally applying any force towards the blade, so if/when you slip you won't touch it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4
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Jan 28, 2016 00:08
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This is what the author of the clip wrote in his comment section on push sticks:quote:When I find a push stick in the box with any machine it gets tossed in the trash after being cut in half to be sure nobody can pick it up and use it.They are worthless, dangerous but there are know-it-alls who say they are the best thing ever. Idiots Yet, if he'd used push sticks, his hands wouldn't have gotten near the blade (I doubt he could have even replicated what he did here), two push sticks give better control than a single pad too.
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Jan 28, 2016 00:19
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I like the sticks since my hand is a good foot away from the blade and whenever I do manage to get it caught, the stick goes flying away. I think with the weird electroshock pad things my hands are too close to blade. I also keep a firm but relatively neutral force applied, so if the stick were to disappear I don't fall forward at all. Same goes on the jointer.
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Jan 28, 2016 00:34
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Zhentar posted:Admonishing people to "be careful" is basically never effective at creating a real increase in safety. Even if there is a short term improvement, people quickly fall back into habits. Actual safety needs to be built into the systems and procedures you use, without depending upon the caution and attentiveness of a single individual. I agree with this 100% which is why I mentioned two things "be safe and focus" Focus is the most important aspect of safety but not the only one. There are methods of work that emphasize safety, they are a backup. And especially when you are working with employees and become responsible for their safety then systems and built in safety is a must. But at the end of the day, we are responsible for our individual safety. Yes I lost focus once, for a moment, but because I chose to use my saw safely, there was no injury. If I my hand was inline with the blade, or too close, it might have been a different story. It's possible to ignore safe procedure and get away with it if you remain focused, people do it all the time. They get away with it, get away with it, get away with it; then one day their mind wanders and they get bitten. I know two people who had their feet mangled because they ignored safety protocols and weren't paying attention. 2 friends, 2 different workplaces, 2 different dangerous machines, both off work for a year and had to learn walking all over. But if you are using a tablesaw safely and focus, there is never a reason you should be injured unless there is some outside influence beyond your control. If you are using the saw safely and lose focus for a moment, the risk is minimal but it was still your fault for losing focus. The truth is if you can't concentrate long enough to use a machine safely then don't or just accept that you are putting yourself at risk. I don't mean that derisively either, we all have our limits. I used to know a guy who made washers for Kenworth, one at a time. He would put the blank in, push a button, remove the washer and insert a new blank. I could never do that, I would doze and fall into the machine and punch my head off, but this man did it all day, year after year. I've posted this a few times but I'll post it again, maybe should be in the OP. My two personal pet peeves are: don't put anything inline with the blade you want in one piece, and don't stand behind the blade especially while ripping. (really they are the same thing, anything inline with the blade is in danger) https://www.tru.ca/hsafety/workinglearningsafely/work/tablesaw.html
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Jan 28, 2016 00:50
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Zhentar posted:Admonishing people to "be careful" is basically never effective at creating a real increase in safety. The best instructor I ever had was the shop guy in Arch School. He'd freak out at you if he saw you doing something wrong, literally yelling at you to stop before you even got started... or he'd cut the power to the whole shop, or if you did something particularly stupid? Shop privilege revoked for day/week/month. A lot of people got very good habits because he was a Shop Nazi, and the reason he was a Shop Nazi is because there shouldn't be any kind of compromise when it comes to safety. If you're doing something stupid, a yelling-at is exactly what you need when your well-being (and that of others) is on the line. EDIT: before I forget... talking safety, the best drat investment I've made in recent memory is a switching magnet featherboard. I didn't think I'd encounter a game-changing safety device, but it's definitely the one. Guitarchitect fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 01:22
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His Divine Shadow posted:Yet, if he'd used push sticks, his hands wouldn't have gotten near the blade (I doubt he could have even replicated what he did here), two push sticks give better control than a single pad too. It was also a mind-numbingly stupid way to demonstrate kickback. bobua posted:To the guys woodworking in your basement, do you all have dust collection systems? I work in my garage, and keep as much as I can on wheels. Wheeling things out into the driveway to work when it's not too cold. Even running the chop saw with a vacuum attachment tends to give the garage a nice dusting... poo poo, I wouldn't work in my garage without a dust mask. All it took was buying a particulate counter used on the web to realize how much dust settles and gets kicked up just when you walk in. To answer your question though, DC can work quite well... if your shrouds are good and you're getting as much as possible right at the source. For all tools, you want the airflow to direct the dust. For a tablesaw, for example, this means sealing it as much as possible and using a DC in the cabinet, as well as an over-arm collector hooked up to a shop vac. A bandsaw should have a port on the lower wheel, but also a table collection point. Lathes have their own design, and it's even possible to get solid DC around a SCMS. Here's a good guide for tablesaw modifications. Last line of defense, which I can't wait to get, would be an air cleaner. They can help pull all the stuff you couldn't get at the saw out of the air, which is often the finest/lightest and therefore most dangerous stuff. Guitarchitect fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 01:28
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bobua posted:To the guys woodworking in your basement, do you all have dust collection systems? I work in my garage, and keep as much as I can on wheels. Wheeling things out into the driveway to work when it's not too cold. Even running the chop saw with a vacuum attachment tends to give the garage a nice dusting... I work in a basement with no air movement. I do haphazard dust collection with two 5-gallon buckets made into a cyclone separator, a couple shop vacs I got for free on craigslist, and a $4 pack of cloth filters from Home Depot. I wear one of these every time. The size I bought fits my face perfectly and it's exactly the filter you want for the type of dust particles woodworking creates. Only thing that's annoying is if I wear it for too long it gets wet from exhaled condensation, especially now that it's getting cold down there. It doesn't affect the filtering, but I'll probably buy another one so I can swap them out if I'm working for that long.
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Jan 28, 2016 02:14
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I ended up buying a bunch of festool stuff for my small, poorly ventilated shop. Having incredible dust collection is where the exorbitant price tag is actually worth it, in my experience.
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Jan 28, 2016 02:28
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tater_salad posted:Agreed I can't turn it off when an emergency arises. My issue is turning it down once I've completed my cut, it's a lot harder to turn off once the cut is done, and since there's no riving knife, or guard the scrap piece of work has the proclivity to sit right there near the blade, leavig the potential for wood based projectiles quite high. since I'd need to bend down with my face parts in front of said potential projectile to reach the tiny on off switch on the left side of the saw I plug it into a power strip and use my foot to turn it off while keeping clear of any flying treebits. This will solve your lack of a conveniently-placed switch, in theory. Can't fix the other safety issues, as easily, though.
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Jan 28, 2016 02:33
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Yep since a universal knife/guide is more than its worth so foe now it's a work surface till I get a band or table saw.
tater_salad fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 02:45
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Magnus Praeda posted:This will solve your lack of a conveniently-placed switch, in theory. Can't fix the other safety issues, as easily, though. gently caress, I missed that post of his. tater_salad, listen to this man. A paddle switch, mounted 6 inches above knee height to the left, is the only way you should be turning off your saw. It was the first thing I did before I even turned on my saw (the previous owner had wired it with a light switch). All "of" operations should be hands free with your leg, if you can help it. A foot switch is a solid addition to a drill press, too. tater_salad posted:Yep since a universal knife/guide is more than its worth so foe now it's a work surface till I get a band or table saw. A microjig splitter is a great solution if your table saw insert can take it... it's just as good as a riving knife but more adaptable. I bought one but my insert is sized/set in such a way that I can't install one 
Guitarchitect fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 03:09
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like I said this saw is done I used it 2-3 realized how much injury potential it had and decided it was destined to be trash.
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Jan 28, 2016 03:11
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Anyone have any tips regarding tabletops? I made one out of 3/4 by 6 maple, about 40x40 and some of the boards were cupped a bit and its mad uneven and wavy. Outside of planing the poo poo out of it is there a solution that will let me keep the thickness or maybe straighten it out? I used glue and nothing else, would biscuits have made it easier or made no difference at all?
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Jan 28, 2016 05:53
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Biscuits are good for getting your boards aligned vertically so that you can get a relatively even surface across the face you reference with the biscuit joiner. You still need to put in the work before you glue up to make the board face you're referencing flat and even. It doesn't have to be finish sanded or anything, but taking out the cup and unevenness of each board with a jointer (or planer sled) is pretty important. Your choice if you want to plane to your final dimension before or after you glue up, but generally doing it beforehand is easier if you don't have a giant drum sander or wide enough planer for your completed slab. In the end, though, if you want boards you don't have to plane as much, be pickier with your lumber. Hopefully you live in a place where you have a good hardwood supplier that'll let you rifle through the boards as much as you want until you grab the ones you're satisfied with. If you're stuck shopping at Home Depot or the like, ignore the dirty looks the staff give you as you go through a pallet and a half of lumber looking for the five straight sticks you need, they're not getting paid enough to gently caress with you over it.
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Jan 28, 2016 06:27
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Anyone listen to woodworking podcasts? I've tried FWW and they were boring. Wood Whisperer, boring. Darbin Orvar, slightly more interesting but not focused enough. 360 Woodworking though hits it out of the park. Their podcasts are limited to 6 minutes and 1 subject so they don't meander and spend 10 minutes talking about buying groceries with their wife or hanging out with Fred and Barney over at the Bedrock woodworking store. Anyone else do a good podcast? I like more focused chat about woodworking or other craft would be okay.
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Jan 28, 2016 07:24
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Archives posted:Anyone have any tips regarding tabletops? I made one out of 3/4 by 6 maple, about 40x40 and some of the boards were cupped a bit and its mad uneven and wavy. Outside of planing the poo poo out of it is there a solution that will let me keep the thickness or maybe straighten it out? I used glue and nothing else, would biscuits have made it easier or made no difference at all? if it's wood movement that is the problem... there's a reason for so-called "classic" tabletop joinery techniques that prevent cupping. Was it straight to begin with, or were the boards always cupped? Biscuits are just for alignment... if your boards had a cup in them, they would make no difference whatsoever. General tips: First, when you glue it up you should alternate the grain so that if each piece will cup, they will do it in opposite directions. An "after the fact" fix would be to add breadboard ends, which should hold everything flat. Third would be to add an apron or cleats under the table, perpendicular to the direction of the boards, to hold everything down. If it's just the boards that have cupped but the overall assembly is still flat, it's probably because your wood was too wet when you started and it has continued to dry... unfortunately the only fix for that is to get more humidity into your home to even out the extremes, and then give it a modest flattening. If you can't do that, you might be stuck... Even if you were to plane it flat now, when it takes on moisture in the spring everything will be out of whack again. If your boards were cupped to begin with and you still glued them together... you'll just have to sleep in the bed you've made and flatten the poo poo out of it by hand. Then you should seal it, and then make sure the structure of the table involves one of the suggestions above. Use The Google so that you know how to attach the table to the base, because there's a technique to that as well.
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Jan 28, 2016 13:22
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The 'alternate growth ring' thing for tabletops is a theory vs reality situation. The theory is it stops your top from cupping but individual boards can still cup creating a washboard top that can only be fixed by planing it flat again, losing thickness and forcing a refinish. If the growth rings go the same way then the whole top can cup which is much easier to fix. One of mine cupped that way and I fixed it by kerfing the bottom. The usual reason for table cupping is not finishing equally on both sides, and that was the cause of mine. But I align boards for best grain match and don't actually pay attention to growth ring orientation. I've read that tops can still cup even if you alternate rings but I can't verify that.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:24
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A tapered sliding dovetail is a traditional method used in scandinavia since medieval times, used to hold table tops flat before the advent of glue, as well as doors. This method of joinery is sturdy enough that the doors don't need braces and outlast people.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:35
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Sliding dovetails are just so cool.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:02
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His Divine Shadow posted:A tapered sliding dovetail is a traditional method used in scandinavia since medieval times, used to hold table tops flat before the advent of glue, as well as doors. This method of joinery is sturdy enough that the doors don't need braces and outlast people. Yep, the sliding dovetail gives enough thickness for staked legs to have full support without additional stretchers. (Schwarz's new Anarchists Design Book has several examples of staked furniture such as this) Wormil is right on, the whole alternating growth rings thing seems like it was invented by someone who in theory understands wood movement but in practice doesn't do much woodworking.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:05
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