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Nitrox posted:And nobody mentioned where her sewage goes. I'm kinda septical.
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Feb 24, 2016 07:26
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So, couldn't you vastly improve the fire rating of trusses by sinking a couple of screws through every joint?
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Feb 24, 2016 08:09
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Baronjutter posted:I worked on a house reno where we did something like that and just put in an engineered wood beam. Was like a wooden I-beam, was about 1' thick. The place already had tallish ceilings so it worked out, but if you've already got low ceilings the beam thickness will defeat the purpose of opening up the wall. By best friend is a draftsman for the architects cranking out wholesale McMansions and he sees this poo poo a lot. On his advice, I wouldn't buy any new house, though, without one hell of an inspection. The last company he worked for was terrible. canyoneer posted:I want my elderly parents to die when they visit me.jpg Those are all Tiny Houses, probably under 200 square feet. Your elderly parents will never come see you in your even shittier trailer house.  I know, I know, it's too harsh. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 08:32
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I wanna make my tiny house frame out of welded aluminum bar stock. Then I can hang all the weird reclaimed poo poo off of it and just make it look like a terrifying claptrap.
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Feb 24, 2016 14:53
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Liquid Communism posted:By best friend is a draftsman for the architects cranking out wholesale McMansions and he sees this poo poo a lot. On his advice, I wouldn't buy any new house, though, without one hell of an inspection. The last company he worked for was terrible. He's lucky they even have an architect on the job even if they have little to no actual oversight... a lot of draftsmen and crappy engineers here will stamp those plans. It's really skirting legality because ethically you're not supposed to stamp plans outside of your expertise. I.E. if you're a Structural Engineer you shouldn't stamp Plumbing or Electrical and Architectural. One time when an Interior Designer I was working with accidentally sent the wrong plans it pissed me off to find out they were doing house plans. Their ID's weren't even working on the homes for this developer. The draftsmen were doing the plans and a Structural Engineer signing off on them for a per sheet deal. The ID's were doing all kinds of FFE stuff on the lucrative deal, but the ones needing actual oversight were being handled by draftsmen. It was even more infuriating because in Florida we've been fighting letting Interior Designers being able to stamp plans recently. rndmnmbr posted:So, couldn't you vastly improve the fire rating of trusses by sinking a couple of screws through every joint? There are many ways to fire-rate your ceiling... "more screws" is not one of them. `Nemesis posted:Speaking of trusses, this was spotted in Florida and indicates to fire fighters that the building has a truss roof. I've never seen/noticed this in Florida, but I also have only seen a handful of commercial (and public) spaced with wood trusses. It appears to be a Panera. That's interesting... I'm surprised it's not bar joists.
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Feb 24, 2016 15:02
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xwing posted:There are many ways to fire-rate your ceiling... "more screws" is not one of them. Since this has sort of turned from the crappy construction thread to the learn cool poo poo about building codes and stuff thread, could you share what they are?
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Feb 24, 2016 16:57
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shortspecialbus posted:Since this has sort of turned from the crappy construction thread to the learn cool poo poo about building codes and stuff thread, could you share what they are? Build it out of wet wood so it can't burn
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Feb 24, 2016 16:59
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shortspecialbus posted:Since this has sort of turned from the crappy construction thread to the learn cool poo poo about building codes and stuff thread, could you share what they are? Sure... UL419 is my go to on drywall. That's for metal studs though and I don't know what the equivalent is for wood framing since I don't deal with that combo much at all. I just pull out the UL book or online selector, I sure don't deal with rated walls on residential. Gypsum board is a pretty drat good fire resistant material in high thicknesses. I remember hearing that the twin towers had 3 layers around some corridors and people were bashing them in to get out when blocked in 9-11. So basically the gist is more gypsum board in most cases and the caulking you use. The problem with that is that's why so many developer homes have textured ceilings is it costs them more to have someone up there smoothing the joints properly. It's thus quicker and easier to spray up a texture. EDIT: Even in higher-end homes a fire-rating is a ton of work for a small chance of a fire. Who knows though I had to talk a person out of wanting a 8" thick concrete core for an ICF home because he felt "safer". /EDIT I can get us back on track when I get home and can grab pictures... I haven't seen anything on my site visits that is too WTF. More of a wanting to hit the contractor for a crappy decision. The one that stands out to me was an access panel for a gas fire place. They spent $20,000 on these gas fireplaces for a clubhouse and it had a glass tile surround. The documentation from the company sucked so when they need to put in access panels they didn't bother to tell us (Architects) or the Interior Designer. They just cut a hole in the adjacent wall, screwed aluminum angles in to the edges, tiled over drywall (not cement backer board) which was bowing and velcro'd that drywall in. It looked like crap! $20K of fireplaces and probably $1K of Daltile to look like crap. xwing fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Feb 24, 2016 |
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Feb 24, 2016 17:48
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Aside from drywall (or drywall + rock wool), intumescent coatings are a standard fireproofing solution (if you see exposed steel structure in a large commercial building, it's probably got an intumescent coating applied). The intumescent coating is basically insulation "dough" - apply heat, and it rises. A 1/16" thick coating can puff up into 3"-4" of fire resistant insulation, offering pretty significant protection. It's very rarely used in residential construction, although you can buy coated TJI joists.
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Feb 24, 2016 18:51
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Yeah, I forget about intumescent paint. I associate it with steel and unless you got the truss manufacturer to put it on I'd be worried about the whole assembly. Back on topic I guess...This is third world (India) so I can't be too harsh, but it comes from a group I have volunteered with and they wrote an article about it:  They poured the floor and beams separate... and the beams were about 10" too low. So they bridged it with brick and covered it up with plaster. It works under the current load but if an earthquake comes the whole thing will come down in short order. The group came in later and was asked to evaluate the construction and discovered this. In the US they'd properly infill it and add shear walls, but that won't work in India. So the solution is almost creating a gabion cage around the brick with welded wire mesh and hold the brick in in the event of an earthquake. It still may fall, but it'll give time for people to get out.
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Feb 24, 2016 20:11
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Zhentar posted:Aside from drywall (or drywall + rock wool), intumescent coatings are a standard fireproofing solution (if you see exposed steel structure in a large commercial building, it's probably got an intumescent coating applied). The intumescent coating is basically insulation "dough" - apply heat, and it rises. A 1/16" thick coating can puff up into 3"-4" of fire resistant insulation, offering pretty significant protection.
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Feb 24, 2016 23:21
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Alereon posted:Interestingly (or not depending on your perspective!), almost identical techniques are used for fireproofing and soundproofing, because both involve sealing gaps and placing mass barriers between what you want to block and another room. The most basic way of soundproofing a wall is to use two layers of 5/8" Type-X fire-rated drywall (with the seams offset) with some dampening material (Green Glue Noiseproofing Compound) between them on the noisy side, acoustical sealant between all gaps and seams, and rock wool insulation in the cavity. And fire putty around all the boxes and other penetrations.
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Feb 24, 2016 23:50
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Alereon posted:The most basic way of soundproofing a wall is to use two layers of 5/8" Type-X fire-rated drywall (with the seams offset) with some dampening material (Green Glue Noiseproofing Compound) between them on the noisy side, acoustical sealant between all gaps and seams, and rock wool insulation in the cavity. Funny thing about that is rock wool isn't really any better than fiberglass for soundproofing (except that it is easier to install correctly). Standard mineral wool actually performed worse than fiberglass in comparative testing. If you look at Roxul's marketing materials, the only time they'll ever make a direct comparison to fiberglass is the NRC in the 65-160Hz range. NRC is a measurement of how well it reduces echoes, not transmission through it, and <=160Hz sound waves can't echo in a 3.5" wide cavity, so it's irrelevant.
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Feb 25, 2016 02:12
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Zhentar posted:The steel plates joining the boards lose at least half their strength at typical house fire temperatures. They're thin and completely exposed, so it doesn't take them very long to warm up and soften. The components of a truss work together as a system to transfer forces from one spot to another, so the failure of a single joint can dramatically increase the forces on the other components, causing other joints or wooden members to fail as well; once one piece fails the rest will likely fail in a chain reaction. What about double trusses? IE instead of one every 8 feet, double trusses every twelve? We are building a truss house using this method and one of the selling points is that by having them doubled up, the chance of failure drops.
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Feb 25, 2016 15:03
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poopinmymouth posted:What about double trusses? IE instead of one every 8 feet, double trusses every twelve? We are building a truss house using this method and one of the selling points is that by having them doubled up, the chance of failure drops. You mean a girder truss? While they might marginally fare better in a fire their placement is based on the footprint of the house and the loads involved on the roof. Ex. a girder is placed where the peak is of a hipped roof and all the end trusses are jack trusses... or I typically design a 2-ply hip girder 8' back from the roof line and the rest be hip trusses because you might end up with a 3-ply girder you have to accommodate. I'm in Florida so I'm not familiar with girders being needed because of snow load, but they aren't going to help much with what he's talking about. What he was saying is when the steel gang/mending plate losses it's strength and fails the roof weight is transferred to the trusses next to it. You'd double the load, the tributary area is doubled for adjacent trusses... it'd then be a domino effect of failure. Even if you halfed your truss spacing to say a truss every foot (double the amount of trusses) you'd still have domino failures. Ex. if you have trusses A, B, C, D, E and C fails the load on B and D will double. So how much longer will it take for the plates to fail on a truss only one foot over? Not much.
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Feb 25, 2016 15:25
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xwing posted:You mean a girder truss? While they might marginally fare better in a fire their placement is based on the footprint of the house and the loads involved on the roof. Ex. a girder is placed where the peak is of a hipped roof and all the end trusses are jack trusses... or I typically design a 2-ply hip girder 8' back from the roof line and the rest be hip trusses because you might end up with a 3-ply girder you have to accommodate. I'm in Florida so I'm not familiar with girders being needed because of snow load, but they aren't going to help much with what he's talking about. Not girder trusses. Here is the post explaining how they do it and why: http://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/08/trusses-5/
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Feb 25, 2016 15:28
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Doubling up of trusses directly next to each other is a girder truss. Your link is a different type of construction than what we're talking about... I've been talking about traditional stud framed (or masonry) where trusses are every 24" O.C. minimum. It'll still fail the same though... I doubt they're designing with a double safety factor so a girder fails just the same. In their designs... the purlin hangers will fail too. http://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/pole-building-faqs/our-pole-buildings/ quote:What is the difference between pole buildings, stud framed and all-steel buildings?
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Feb 25, 2016 16:21
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xwing posted:Doubling up of trusses directly next to each other is a girder truss. Alright, thank for that. I'm really hoping once construction is under way I won't be a poster child for this thread!
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Feb 25, 2016 16:38
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Put in a residential fire sprinkler system instead of worrying about the fire resistance of the trusses.
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Feb 25, 2016 16:52
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poopinmymouth posted:Not girder trusses. Here is the post explaining how they do it and why: http://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/08/trusses-5/ The argument being made there is dependent upon a non-uniform distribution of weak points (e.g. manufacturing defects, random variation in material strength). Flame/heat induced weakness will be largely uniform, so the doubling up will do little to delay failure. Applying that technique to residential construction seems rather odd, though. If you increase the spacing of trusses past 24" O.C., you need purlins and strapping to support the roof & ceiling; that can't be cost effective when you aren't even using fewer trusses.
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Feb 25, 2016 20:30
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This what I designed & built on the advice of an engineer:  .Wanted the open span; engineer suggested the purlins to carry the load from mid-span to the top plate. Used 2x8s instead of 2x12s.
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Feb 26, 2016 03:30
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Is that toiled hooked up or did you want a giant two story outhouse?
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Feb 26, 2016 03:53
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moist turtleneck posted:Is that toiled hooked up or did you want a giant two story outhouse? If you've never pooped in wide open spaces, you haven't lived. 
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Feb 26, 2016 04:26
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is this not the toilet room thread?
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Feb 26, 2016 05:37
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Bad Munki posted:If you've never pooped in wide open spaces, you haven't lived. I don't think I've ever wanted something quite this much in my entire life
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Feb 26, 2016 06:06
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GotLag posted:I don't think I've ever wanted something quite this much in my entire life I'd just want to yell out "GARDYLOO!!" before flushing vigorously.
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Feb 26, 2016 06:16
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Shifty Pony posted:Put in a residential fire sprinkler system instead of worrying about the fire resistance of the trusses. Residential fires sprinklers are designed to wet down walls to prevent flashover for about 20 minutes to give the occupants time to get out. They do little in terms of suppression as they aren't designed with a sufficient number of heads, the correct kind of heads pointed the right way nor to have very many heads open at the same time. You need much more water volume and therefore much larger piping for big boy sprinklers. Also an FDC, as your residential water supply ain't gonna cut it. In fact, if you tried to install commercial sprinklers on a typical residential water supply you would likely be required to treat it as if it were well fed, which means tanks/cistern and a fire pump.
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Feb 26, 2016 17:14
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They're still good enough to extinguish about 90% of the time. And even if they don't extinguish, a 20 minute delay is better than what rafters will buy over trusses. Sprinklers are easily the most cost effective residential fire safety measure after smoke alarms, even before you consider insurance discounts.
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Feb 26, 2016 19:23
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A developer i know got quoted 15k to install sprinklers in a rental triplex they were rehabbing. They choose to pay a lawyer 4-5k and somehow re-zone the property so sprinklers were not required. Those poor tenants could have had extra 20 minutes to escape in case of fire
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Feb 26, 2016 22:40
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The fkn big city fire chief in my state lobbied against a bill requiring fire sprinklers in new residential construction. Subsequently, it did not pass. E: link http://www.fosterfoster.com/Flammability-Observer/Arizona-Texas-Alabama-Kansas-and-Hawaii-Forbid-Home-Sprinkler-Laws.shtml The Gardenator fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Feb 26, 2016 |
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Feb 26, 2016 23:19
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Nitrox posted:A developer i know got quoted 15k to install sprinklers in a rental triplex they were rehabbing. They choose to pay a lawyer 4-5k and somehow re-zone the property so sprinklers were not required. Those poor tenants could have had extra 20 minutes to escape in case of fire I asked a sprinkler guy about it one time. He just throws a quote like 7-10k for a residential house. Actual costs and labour is probably 1500. There is a poo poo ton of markup.
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Feb 27, 2016 01:57
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DocCynical posted:I asked a sprinkler guy about it one time. He just throws a quote like 7-10k for a residential house. Actual costs and labour is probably 1500. There is a poo poo ton of markup. You can't even buy the control valves, switches and heads for $1500. The permit is gonna be a couple hundred at least in every reasonable jurisdiction. And you need engineered, stamped plans. And piping. And labor. Not sure what the hell your buddy is talking about.
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Feb 27, 2016 02:17
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Motronic posted:Not sure what the hell your buddy is talking about. Maybe lawn sprinklers?
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Feb 27, 2016 02:20
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CopperHound posted:Maybe lawn sprinklers?
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Feb 27, 2016 02:47
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Motronic posted:You can't even buy the control valves, switches and heads for $1500. The permit is gonna be a couple hundred at least in every reasonable jurisdiction. And you need engineered, stamped plans. And piping. And labor. It was 10 years ago (shiiiiiiit I'm old) so maybe my numbers are off a lot.
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Feb 27, 2016 03:16
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Just hook a sprinkler hose up through your rafters and turn the hose on if there's a fire, problem solved.
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Feb 27, 2016 03:20
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No, you strap a plastic hose to your ceiling and cap it, then turn the tap on. If there's a fire, the hose will melt and the water will put out the fire. That's how sprinkler systems work anyways, geez.
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Feb 27, 2016 03:50
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Fill your attic with water, when the fire burns a hole in the ceiling the water will pour down and put it out
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Feb 27, 2016 03:59
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GotLag posted:Fill your attic with water, when the fire burns a hole in the ceiling the water will pour down and put it out I tried this in minecraft, didn't work.
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Feb 27, 2016 04:18
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Baronjutter posted:I tried this in minecraft, didn't work. I like the way you think.
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Feb 27, 2016 04:28
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