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computer parts posted:Protest as a method has never worked in a vacuum. It has only been successful when built upon the backs of decades of previous work. Fair enough, though I think that thesis borders on tautological given the confirmation bias of historical hindsight. But what I'm questioning is whether protests are effective these days even given the proper historical infrastructure. Not that they aren't great for reasons of solidarity and morale, but that their direct effect has been muted to the point that some additional innovation I'm too dumb to predict may need to come along to get over that activation energy and foment change.
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Jul 17, 2016 16:26
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Sarcastr0 posted:
They might be, but that infrastructure doesn't exist right now.
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Jul 17, 2016 16:31
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computer parts posted:They might be, but that infrastructure doesn't exist right now. I'd guess you are right, but I thought the same thing about gay marriage.
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Jul 17, 2016 16:48
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Am I the only one who thought of Crowder when I saw this?
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Jul 17, 2016 16:49
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Sarcastr0 posted:I'd guess you are right, but I thought the same thing about gay marriage. Gay Marriage had decades of organizing behind it, but even that aside a) it still has lots of work to do, as the Religious Freedom Bills indicate and b) it's a totally unique situation because it transcends every other border you can think of. Like it doesn't matter if you're white, black, male, female, rich or poor, you or your child could still be gay.
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Jul 17, 2016 16:58
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Mister Macys posted:Am I the only one who thought of Crowder when I saw this? No ring.
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Jul 17, 2016 17:01
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I don't know what makes me want to inflict violence on this shirt more, the bad joke or the fact that this dude looks like a clone of Adam Sandler.
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Jul 17, 2016 17:02
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Crabtree posted:I don't know what makes me want to inflict violence on this shirt more, the bad joke or the fact that this dude looks like a clone of Adam Sandler.
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Jul 17, 2016 17:15
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This judge jeanine person I just heard speak on Fox News is an awful human being who should feel bad for existing. Also according to some Fox News Analyst? Obama took away all the tactical combat gear away from the police and is hampering their ability to do their jobs. Fox News is a cancer.
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Jul 17, 2016 17:59
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I hope she said that while looking at a live feed of BR with the police with their tactical vests and assault rifles.
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Jul 17, 2016 18:10
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FuzzySkinner posted:This judge jeanine person I just heard speak on Fox News is an awful human being who should feel bad for existing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w2ZS231BAQ
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Jul 17, 2016 18:22
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I managed to make it a whole minute and forty three seconds in, when she called the Muslim Brotherhood "the mother of all terrorist organizations." I think I counted three correct facts in that time. I can't imagine the worldviews of people that don't just subject themselves to this but also believe it ... and I document freep.
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Jul 17, 2016 18:36
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She's not a journalist, she's a talk show host. [Proceeds to make up falsehoods whole cloth]
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Jul 17, 2016 18:45
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Sarcastr0 posted:I don't know if I'm willing to denigrate the power of pacifist protest to enact change on it's own. As Gandhi's sorta-disciple MLK taught the American South, the judgement of the world has a political pressure that comes directly from the violence being only on the side of the status quo. Oh, pacifism is absolutely the morally and often tactically superior option. It is tactically superior when those in power have the means to exterminate your entire movement and will take the slightest hint that you are less than 100% peaceful as their cue to do so. And they might do it anyway. Because they see even a totally pacifist protest as, once again, and implicit threat of violence. Both MLK and Ghandi were operating in context in which those in power already routinely used violence to suppress peaceful civil disobedience; massacring unarmed protesters, lynchings, etc. Just to hammer this in, this is because those in power see peaceful civil disobedience as carrying an inherent threat of violence. I'm trying to get through that neither people with disproportionate power over a subject population nor that subject population see the world the way an educated, comfortable, relatively privileged, but not terrible influential or powerful person does. Of the three positions, the one we goons tend to fall into is the furthest removed from reality.
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Jul 17, 2016 18:47
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McGlockenshire posted:I managed to make it a whole minute and forty three seconds in, when she called the Muslim Brotherhood "the mother of all terrorist organizations." I think I counted three correct facts in that time. I draw some solace from the fact that the shitbirds in the comments calling for killing every man, woman, and child who practices Islam are too cowardly and stupid to carry out their hate fantasies in real life, and instead will just hope and pray that the government will do it for them.
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Jul 17, 2016 18:51
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I participated in protests against education cuts at the CA capital around 2010ish. Watching old teacher ladies get escorted off the grounds by police was sad and funny at the same time. There was a huge boisterous turn out. Same day or at least around the same time there was a Kings leaving Sac "protest". Afterwards I went to see how the local news reported these events. They said only a few hundred people showed up to the teacher protest and showed footage of either the outskirts of the event or around the end. Never talked about the platform, who the speakers were or the details of what we were protesting. For the loving Kings they squeezed a hundred idiots together and filmed them up close and went on at length about how thousands of people showed up to protest the Kings leaving. gently caress this world and its priorities. And here we are, stupid new arena built, the Kings logo and sinage on a public park and basketball court as if they have anything to contribute to our urban youth, and increased parking fees, thanks. But at least educators had a moment of relief with prop 30. Anyway, sorry for all that venting. What I was really wondering about was what role media plays in how effective protests are. I'm sure the same tactics used in the above experience are similar to what's being done now and what has already been done since protests started. What do you do about that?
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Jul 17, 2016 19:03
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FuzzySkinner posted:This judge jeanine person I just heard speak on Fox News is an awful human being who should feel bad for existing. Trump could do a Bud Dywer at the upcoming convention, after apologizing for scamming people for the last few decades of his life, and Fox would blame Obama for not giving enough tax breaks to the rich.
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Jul 17, 2016 19:05
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happyhippy posted:Trump could do a Bud Dywer at the upcoming convention, after apologizing for scamming people for the last few decades of his life, and Fox would blame Obama for not giving enough tax breaks to the rich. My shere disgust for that network is unmatched. There's times when the other people on that network are so drat awful, and so unreasonable that they may likes of Bill O'Reilly seem reasonable, centrist. I realize that's controversial, but I want you to think about the other people that Fox News runs out. Todd Starnes, Megyn Kelly, Judge Jeanine, Gavin McInnes, etc, etc.
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Jul 17, 2016 19:28
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The Muslim Brotherhood is a pan-Arabic political organization whose goal it is to unite the Arab world and usher in an era of prosperity or some poo poo, iirc. What is the RWM hard-on for calling them a terrorist organization?
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Jul 17, 2016 19:29
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Chilichimp posted:The Muslim Brotherhood is a pan-Arabic political organization whose goal it is to unite the Arab world and usher in an era of prosperity or some poo poo, iirc. It's got "Muslim" in its name. Don't take much more than that.
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Jul 17, 2016 19:34
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Tarezax posted:Planned Parenthood? A private weed shop.
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Jul 17, 2016 19:42
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Chilichimp posted:What is the RWM hard-on for calling them a terrorist organization? The UAE, the Saudis, Egypt, Syria, and Russia have all classified the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist group, and none sooner than 2013. That should tell you pretty much everything you need to know. McGlockenshire fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jul 17, 2016 |
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Jul 17, 2016 19:46
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Hodgepodge posted:I'm trying to get through that neither people with disproportionate power over a subject population nor that subject population see the world the way an educated, comfortable, relatively privileged, but not terrible influential or powerful person does. Of the three positions, the one we goons tend to fall into is the furthest removed from reality. Put that way, I enthusiastically agree. Oppressors are always super paranoid about everything the oppressed does. Slave owners' centuries long constant terror about revolt is what springs to mind for me.
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Jul 17, 2016 20:04
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Hodgepodge posted:Oh, pacifism is absolutely the morally and often tactically superior option. It should be noted that the civil rights movement also existed alongside a parallel, explicit threat of violence from Malcolm X and others in the Black Panther movement. In essence it wound up presenting the option of "we can do this the peaceful way, or the violent way, but we're not going to tolerate a continuation of the status quo."
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Jul 17, 2016 20:11
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Keeshhound posted:It should be noted that the civil rights movement also existed alongside a parallel, explicit threat of violence from Malcolm X and others in the Black Panther movement. Malcolm X was active for like a decade tops and eventually renounced most of that stuff before being assassinated by Nation of Islam members.
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Jul 17, 2016 20:16
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Chilichimp posted:The Muslim Brotherhood is a pan-Arabic political organization whose goal it is to unite the Arab world and usher in an era of prosperity or some poo poo, iirc. Several actual terrorist groups splintered off from them because the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't believe in violence. That's more than enough for them. Also they served the role of Muslim boogyman between the destruction of AQ and the rise of ISIS. Also they've taken to calling CAIR "the terrorist group as designated by the United Arab Emirates". My favorite intentionally disingenuous outrage was when the US government was selling more weapons to Egypt's military during the Morsi administration, and people were howling about Obama giving the Muslim Brotherhood weapons. Then he was overthrown by the same military we gave weapons to. Goatman Sacks fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Jul 17, 2016 |
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Jul 17, 2016 20:24
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Looks like the police shooting wasn't a targeted act but began with a group of people shooting at each other http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_578b9c19e4b03fc3ee51383b I wonder when Walsh is going to stop saying it was Black Lives Matter terrorists
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Jul 17, 2016 20:28
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:Looks like the police shooting wasn't a targeted act but began with a group of people shooting at each other If a cop die in the next month or so for any reason, Walsh will blame BLM Terrorism
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Jul 17, 2016 20:58
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Bast Relief posted:I participated in protests against education cuts at the CA capital around 2010ish. Watching old teacher ladies get escorted off the grounds by police was sad and funny at the same time. There was a huge boisterous turn out. Same day or at least around the same time there was a Kings leaving Sac "protest". I'm sure you don't like talking about this stuff because it gets the blood pressure rising but please continue to do so! It's always very interesting to read!
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Jul 17, 2016 20:58
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computer parts posted:Malcolm X was active for like a decade tops and eventually renounced most of that stuff before being assassinated by Nation of Islam members. Your critique is that it was "only a decade" seriously? Malcolm created so many of the themes of modern black social activism, the power of which is only emphasized by the fact that it was so much more unpopular with the elites and yet he still managed to have so much attention and authority.
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Jul 17, 2016 21:06
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TildeATH posted:Your critique is that it was "only a decade" seriously? Malcolm created so many of the themes of modern black social activism, the power of which is only emphasized by the fact that it was so much more unpopular with the elites and yet he still managed to have so much attention and authority. I mean, in the context of several decades worth of protesting and infrastructure, yes only a decade isn't really that long. Especially when he was at the tail end of those several decades.
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Jul 17, 2016 21:10
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Sarcastr0 posted:Ah, so when you're saying threat, you mean perceived threat. Maybe a distinction without a difference, but helpful to me. Yes, those with power, wealth, and/or privilege that has no legitimate social contract with a significant portion of the population are generally quite paranoid about any genuine challenge because they are aware of the resentment and anger the measures they take to maintain the imbalance generate. In a sense, though, the perception of a threat is real; it is just massively exaggerated with regards to the immediate situation due to the dehumanization and generally distorted world view required to maintain their own sense of legitimacy. The aggrieved are constrained both factors ranging from genuine morality and sympathy for even their oppressors to the need for restraint in the face of the realities of the very imbalance they are protesting. Anyhow, we see a bunch of hipsters, students, and normal people at say, Occupy. A rich person sees the Nazis coming to put the wealthy in camps.
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Jul 17, 2016 21:14
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computer parts posted:I mean, in the context of several decades worth of protesting and infrastructure, yes only a decade isn't really that long. Especially when he was at the tail end of those several decades. Malcolm and the critique he embodied wasn't just the violent contrasted with the nonviolent, it was the urban northern contrasted with the religious southern black experience. When you focus too much on MLK and his protests, it ignores the experience of post-war urban blacks and how they were affected by institutionalized racism outside of the segregated South. The problem with this is that it plays into the whole Right Wing "Things are fine now, Selma is desegregated" response to modern complaints. The racism that Malcolm was responding to, and the methods and movements that addressed it, are much more modern and applicable to modern incarnations of racism against blacks than the kind that MLK was responding to. That's a big reason why people in power hated Malcolm and lauded MLK, because MLK was only ruining poo poo for crackers while Malcolm was ruining poo poo for rich successful urban white elites.
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Jul 17, 2016 21:24
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Bast Relief posted:I participated in protests against education cuts at the CA capital around 2010ish. Watching old teacher ladies get escorted off the grounds by police was sad and funny at the same time. There was a huge boisterous turn out. Same day or at least around the same time there was a Kings leaving Sac "protest". Given the fact that protests only work if people pay attention and they get their message out, I can say that the media plays a massive role. They can easily poison a movement if they spread the right narrative early enough that it replaces the truth in the public eye. That is getting more difficult these days to hammer in a coherent narrative since any fool with a cellphone can capture the event and spread it faster than the news, but for people who get their information from RWM, it's still piss easy to manipulate them into raging at whatever target they want. I really hope that whoever makes these shirts takes a tumble into the machinery. Geostomp fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jul 17, 2016 |
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Jul 17, 2016 21:47
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TildeATH posted:Malcolm and the critique he embodied wasn't just the violent contrasted with the nonviolent, it was the urban northern contrasted with the religious southern black experience. When you focus too much on MLK and his protests, it ignores the experience of post-war urban blacks and how they were affected by institutionalized racism outside of the segregated South. The problem with this is that it plays into the whole Right Wing "Things are fine now, Selma is desegregated" response to modern complaints. The racism that Malcolm was responding to, and the methods and movements that addressed it, are much more modern and applicable to modern incarnations of racism against blacks than the kind that MLK was responding to. That's a big reason why people in power hated Malcolm and lauded MLK, because MLK was only ruining poo poo for crackers while Malcolm was ruining poo poo for rich successful urban white elites. Which is great, but not really a response to "and threats of violence is why Selma is desegregated now" which is the post I responded to (and the theme of violent protest chat in general).
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Jul 17, 2016 21:59
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:Looks like the police shooting wasn't a targeted act but began with a group of people shooting at each other They need to come up with a catch-all term when the facts aren't clear but they need to rage, like Islamoblackists or something
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Jul 17, 2016 23:03
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beatlegs posted:They need to come up with a catch-all term when the facts aren't clear but they need to rage, like Islamoblackists or something You are not safe. I am not safe. Probably... I mean, something islomoblackish out there is def totes otw!
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Jul 17, 2016 23:21
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Protests are a threat of violence. I know that protests are pretty much always explicitly non-violent and non-disruptive but nice, peaceful protests are a threat of worse things to come. The thing is, well, America has problems. America has a metric gently caress ton of problems but the hands on the wheels are responding to them with "meh, ignore it and it will go away." The poo poo seriously hit the fan when the Great Recession hit; coupled with increased militarization of police and all the poo poo heaped on the black community they're pretty god damned furious. Let's be honest, they have ever right to be. BLM has certainly not been ignored. No protest is going to magically fix whatever the problem is, but they can and do have an impact. Change is always going to be slow, gradual and not immediately noticeable. The impact will be different in different areas over different times. Every city is different, and some police departments are relatively well-trained and well-funded, and some are not. Police departments in different cities and states have been reorganizing themselves in response, introducing new and more focus on de-escalation training, demilitarization, community oversight boards to direct policy, more body cameras, ending abusive revenue generating practices, etc. https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/black-lives-matter-minneapolis-symbolic-demands-winning quote:"Before events in Ferguson, 46 percent of Americans believed that more changes were necessary to ensure that blacks and whites had equal rights. After a year of protests, the Washington Post found that 60 percent of Americans think the country needs to change to address racial inequality. Today 53 percent of whites believe changes must be made, compared to just 39 percent in 2014." People do notice this stuff. There's been a big impact on millions of people, enough to influence the presidential elections. Like that rear end in a top hat billionaire someone just posted, the guy who compared rich people to the Jews during the Holocaust. Some people freak the gently caress out at mobs of protesters at their doors. This is why you have to keep protesting. You have to keep up the momentum, and make it impossible to ignore. Even if an individual protest doesn't seem to have any impact, it does. A mob of people that you can see, hear, touch, and smell is going to have more of an impact than some rear end in a top hat writing a column on the internet.
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Jul 17, 2016 23:22
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The change being demanded at this point is "stop murdering unarmed civilians". I think people are justified in demanding that be stopped immediately. It's unfair to tell them "baby steps" when they have to live with that fear all the time (and when it's not unreasonable to expect law enforcement officers to behave professionally when it comes to not murdering people).
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Jul 17, 2016 23:50
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One of the more innocuous things Walsh has said, but god drat, this guy has a loving Jesus tattoo—the *definition* of a virtue signal—that he slips into every Twitter profile pic. https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/754766885204348928
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Jul 17, 2016 23:52
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