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please do NOT talk about this book in the Talk About This Book Thread. It is highly discouraged.
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Aug 11, 2016 15:56
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you used to call me on the bone phone Pale night when you need my mage
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Aug 11, 2016 18:42
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 We'll all enjoy watching as your opinions about things change over time.
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Aug 11, 2016 20:40
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:you used to call me on the bone phone Ever since I left Darujhistan You started worshiping the gods more Blood sacrifice out on the temple floor Hanging with some priests I've never seen before
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Aug 11, 2016 21:36
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Refresh my memory: what is it in Deadhouse Gates that causes Fener to be forced into the desert where Heboric is? Also I'm assuming this is around the time the Tiger of Summer ascends in Fener's place in MoI?
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Aug 12, 2016 08:02
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I'm not sure how it worked, but Herboric's ghost hand touching one of the jade statues. e: uh I mean yes it was DG, and yes 
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Aug 12, 2016 08:05
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Okay, I remember now, thanks. People in MoI just start saying "Fener's finished/mortal now" as if it's just happened offscreen. It took me until Rake brought up Heboric to recall Fener's part in DG. The plots between the two books feel worlds apart right now - aside from a few connections like this, it seems like you could comfortably read MoI first, at least as far as I've read (62% on my Kindle).
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Aug 12, 2016 08:42
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You probably could and not miss much. The two take place at the same time.
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Aug 12, 2016 09:02
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It's funny how at this point it's not even strange when a wizard decides to talk to the god of death while mid-flight across the sky with a talking bundle of twigs on his shoulder. I imagine there's been a lot of conversation about how the heck this series could be filmed.
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Aug 12, 2016 10:19
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I don't think it would be possible. To do it right would require an utterly staggering budget, between the necessary amount of CGI and the massive cast. I mean, yes, Game of Thrones exists but Malazan would require even more resources, and the books have a much smaller audience as far as I'm aware. And Game of Thrones has already deviated significantly from the source material because of these issues (at least, that's what I've been told, I don't watch it) Realistically the only way I see it being done is animation, and I'm not even sure what to think of that. There are so many ways that could go horribly wrong.
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Aug 12, 2016 10:50
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snoremac posted:It's funny how at this point it's not even strange when a wizard decides to talk to the god of death while mid-flight across the sky with a talking bundle of twigs on his shoulder. I imagine there's been a lot of conversation about how the heck this series could be filmed. There is no way this series could be filmed and make justice on the books. Although Chain of Dogs and Midnight Tides might work in isolation.
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Aug 12, 2016 10:51
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snoremac posted:It's funny how at this point it's not even strange when a wizard decides to talk to the god of death while mid-flight across the sky with a talking bundle of twigs on his shoulder. I imagine there's been a lot of conversation about how the heck this series could be filmed.
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Aug 12, 2016 11:09
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Yeah I read that in the preface (incidentally, the phrase "write with eggs" has stuck with me since, mainly because I've never heard it and it sounds weird). I've gotten the sense that some sections are written with a cinematic eye, especially the Chain of Dogs battles. I agree that too much of it would be impossible to reasonably depict.
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Aug 12, 2016 11:23
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I don't think I'd want to see a filmed adaptation of any Malazan books. If they did it, I'd want them to straight up not explain anything. But that would get in the way of it being at all marketable.
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Aug 12, 2016 13:43
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I'm currently on Dust of Dreams, so almost finished. One thing that has aggravated me from the start, and still does, is the constant shifting of storylines within the same chapter. Sometimes to characters that you'll never read/hear from again. I've found myself skipping through pages of the books because of this. Am I missing much? Though it then goes back to the first reading of the deck of dragons by fiddler 
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Aug 12, 2016 16:35
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diapermeat posted:I'm currently on Dust of Dreams, so almost finished. One thing that has aggravated me from the start, and still does, is the constant shifting of storylines within the same chapter. Sometimes to characters that you'll never read/hear from again. I've found myself skipping through pages of the books because of this. Am I missing much? To the best of my knowledge there are no "dead end" plots in Dust of Dreams, so if for example you're reading about the Bolkando courts or the various Barghast tribes, you probably don't want to be skipping pages.
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Aug 12, 2016 17:33
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If I were in charge of making an adaptation of Malazan, I'd probably go about it by making an anthology series out of the distinct storylines from each book. S1 could be Darujhistan, S2 the Chain of Dogs, S3 Pannion Domin campaign, and so on. Trying to make a full length adaptation of the entire series would be futile. But you could market it as Band of Brothers meets Game of Thrones and laugh all the way to the bank.
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Aug 13, 2016 00:57
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snoremac posted:It's funny how at this point it's not even strange when a wizard decides to talk to the god of death while mid-flight across the sky with a talking bundle of twigs on his shoulder. I imagine there's been a lot of conversation about how the heck this series could be filmed. That's the part where Fener's being pulled into the moral real by Heboric is as explained as it's ever going to be. It made absolutely no sense on my first read through but on the second - when I knew what the gently caress was going on and who all these people were - it made as much sense as anything else in what is essentially an extended D&D campaign.
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Aug 13, 2016 01:20
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snoremac posted:Okay, I remember now, thanks. People in MoI just start saying "Fener's finished/mortal now" as if it's just happened offscreen. It took me until Rake brought up Heboric to recall Fener's part in DG. The plots between the two books feel worlds apart right now - aside from a few connections like this, it seems like you could comfortably read MoI first, at least as far as I've read (62% on my Kindle). I really enjoyed doing MoI -> DG on my current re-read. You miss out on the Shadowthrone/Dancer reveal by reading in that order, but there's a lot more continuity with the setting and characters of GotM if you read MoI 2nd. The Fener bits in DG actually took me by surprise, because I was conflating two events in my mind: Fener doesn't get "called down" when Heboric first touches the jade statue. Instead, he "absorbs" something from the statue that seems to poison him. Later, Heboric falls behind Baudin and Felisin, and Baudin has to rescue him. Heboric is comatose, Baudin tries to heal him by performing Fener's ritual gesture with his ghost hands, and that's when Fener appears. Heboric's story is pretty complex. I'm looking forward to reading his parts in HoC and BH, since I can't recall a lot of the details.
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Aug 13, 2016 02:18
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Heboric is cool but his story is one of those plot lines where I dunno if it's at all meaningful or if it's just dumb fantasy magic system nonsense
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Aug 13, 2016 02:28
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cptn_dr posted:If I were in charge of making an adaptation of Malazan, I'd probably go about it by making an anthology series out of the distinct storylines from each book. S1 could be Darujhistan, S2 the Chain of Dogs, S3 Pannion Domin campaign, and so on. Trying to make a full length adaptation of the entire series would be futile. The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > The Malazan Book of the Fallen: Band of Brothers meets Game of Thrones
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Aug 13, 2016 03:59
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Juaguocio posted:I really enjoyed doing MoI -> DG on my current re-read. You miss out on the Shadowthrone/Dancer reveal by reading in that order, but there's a lot more continuity with the setting and characters of GotM if you read MoI 2nd. Fener I think it's that Hebiric gets punished according to the Reeve which is having his hands cut off and sent to Fener, but it was all bullshit and Fener likes him so the hands stay in Feners realm untouched. Then Heboroc touches a jade statue and when Baudin tries to heal him by using his stump to touch Feners mark on his chest the alienness of the jade forces Fener from his realm
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Aug 13, 2016 16:00
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I'm halfway through Deadhouse Gates and just discovered this thread. Holy poo poo, I love this series so far. I love the unapologetic lack of explanation of anything and just throwing you in (reminds me of Rajaneimi's Quantum Thief a little). I have only the slightest grasp of what's happening right now, but I'm totally okay with that.
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Aug 13, 2016 18:39
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AmericanGeeksta posted:I'm halfway through Deadhouse Gates and just discovered this thread. Holy poo poo, I love this series so far. I love the unapologetic lack of explanation of anything and just throwing you in (reminds me of Rajaneimi's Quantum Thief a little). Keep posting and let us know what you think! This thread is pretty good about spoilers so don't hesitate to ask any questions.
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Aug 13, 2016 19:15
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I burned through Memories of Ice. I'd been looking forward to it since I checked a bunch of top 10 lists and found that most people place it very high, even first. I loved DG, or at least I loved it at its best, and it placed everywhere from first to last, so I was braced for the book that seems almost unanimously praised. So, it's pretty good. It's also pretty bad. I prefer DG. I burned through it not because I was absorbed but because I was impatient to see what the fuss is about. I was disappointed. The internal conflicts of most characters are unengaging. It's a shame how boring (and confusing) the Mhybe's arc becomes. It starts off so well, painting her as a selfless mother before revealing how much she resents Silverfox. It seemed like ripe ground for drama, but then she starts dreaming about being a wolf or whatever and I tuned out. The resentment remains, but nothing comes of it. The reams of internal monologues are lame, most of them - there are so many instances of mawkishly expressed love, grief, compassion or self-pity. Felisin's internal monologues in DG work because they're a picture of her fractured psyche. Her thoughts reveal more about her than she realizes. Characters in MoI just blandly state what they're feeling, at length. I cringed hard when Paran thought something like "All I feel is pain." In general, there aren't enough shades of grey among the characters. No amount of gruffness in the soldiers' demeanours can override how sappy they currently are at heart. Put another way, they're not sappy, but their emotions are sappily handled. When Whiskeyjack died and everyone started mourning, I didn't care. The guy is so good-hearted and universally beloved - and this is made clear so many times - that I can't buy into it. Likewise, I didn't care when Itkovian absorbed the pain of the T'lan Imass. He's boring, and his search for meaning post-Fener is boring. I guess I'd prefer a dignified distance, like with Coltaine, whose inherent goodness was expressed through actions and (very few) words. There also isn't enough drama. There are hints of potential conflict, like the cool scene where Silverfox spitefully mocks Paran, or any scene where Brood is angry at someone, that unfortunately fizzle out. The plot, except for the wolf stuff that I barely understand, is good. The scenes I most look forward to are those where characters plan military strategies or political schemes. Against the backdrop of the shaky alliance, these encounters are juicy stuff. The comedy often lands - Kruppe has some hilarious lines, even if his shtick wears thin towards the end, and the necromancers and Mott Irregulars have their moments. The siege is amazing, probably the peak of the novel. The Tenescowri are disturbing and gross. I was stunned when the women raped the corpses falling down the human slope. It's a shame though how quickly the Pannion Domin loses its mystique upon introduction. What seemed like a sinister threat was just an idiotic cult run by a petulant psycho. On that note, all the villains so far seem to be petulant psychos.The mythology is increasingly compelling, at least what I can grasp of it. Occasionally there's a poignant bit of philosophy or morality; I liked the epilogue in that regard, and Korlat's revelation about Rake's real mission. Overall I liked it enough that I'll keep reading, but I'd like to know if there's anyone else who isn't crazy about MoI? snoremac fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Aug 14, 2016 |
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Aug 14, 2016 07:25
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Man if a dude doing the job of a god and killing himself in the process solely because it's the right thing to do doesn't get you I don't know what to tell you. Like that's about as loving much "expressed through actions" as you can get. Itkovian also isn't Coltaine, given his role of Shield Anvil, and a "dignified distance" would not have fit him at all - it certainly wouldn't have allowed him to express his view on compassion, which is a pretty integral thing in setting up what he ultimately does.
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Aug 14, 2016 07:48
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It's because I don't think it works well on a dramatic level. It's not what he does I have a problem with, but how it's told. For example, I think if the Chain of Dogs plot was told from Coltaine's perspective it wouldn't work. If we were constantly in his mind as he explicated the virtues of good deeds being recorded by history and passed down to future generations it would diminish the impact of his sacrifice and the impact of the message. This is mainly because it's lame to have characters explicitly specify their driving force, but also because his death would've seemed more likely and less dramatic. The brilliance of it is that his motive is withheld until just the right moment, when he's about to split from Duiker and march to his death against the rebels. It's expressed in a single, pithy line of dialogue that explains him just as thoroughly as Itkovian's internal monologues do (incidentally, it also instills in Duiker a reason to push past the misery and continue his work - it's a really good line). I definitely think Itkovian's sacrifice could have been presented without all the pathos, with the meaning still clear, and been better off for it. "Expressed through actions" was probably the wrong way to put it. More "expressed with less words." Edit: Fewer. snoremac fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Aug 14, 2016 |
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Aug 14, 2016 08:35
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I am also not that high on MoI. I consider DG and Midnight Tides to be my favorites so you have that in your favor. Toll the Hounds is the only real drag.
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Aug 14, 2016 15:49
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Toll the Hounds and MoI are the best two books in the series for basically polar opposite reasons
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Aug 14, 2016 17:03
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:Toll the Hounds and MoI are the best two books in the series for basically polar opposite reasons Retard sex?
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Aug 14, 2016 18:12
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snoremac posted:It's because I don't think it works well on a dramatic level. It's not what he does I have a problem with, but how it's told. Just gonna black bar all of this I guess because I can't locate good points to do it. As I said, Itkovian isn't Coltaine and for the life of me I don't see how distance from him would have fit his character or serviced it well at all given his role of Shield Anvil - which is to literally be there for others, to heal their spirits of the various damages afflicted upon them, and to take that pain into himself. It's a role that revolves wholly around empathy and compassion, especially as Itkovian practices it - following Fener is not a requirement to receive his healing; his compassion is open to any and all who need it. Making him unknowable, imo, would be completely at odds with what is core to the role and thus his character. Coltaine's role, though, and thus why comparing the two characters doesn't make sense to me, is that of a general. Empathy and compassion are not part of the job description - and that's why the distance up until the end works so well for him. Neither of those are expected from him, nor even required by his role (and some might even consider them a negative in that context).
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Aug 14, 2016 18:33
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I also think Itkovian is dumb and boring, never got the love for him.
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Aug 14, 2016 22:45
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Got to say I love the way Malazans talk to each other. They're super distrustful but can't stop lashing out and saying dangerous things that could get them killed. You really get the feeling that they've spent the last six years living under a brutal regime that constantly spying on them and they know that they have to watch what they saw, but the constant stress is just wearing down on them to the point where they can't help but a crack a little under the pressure. And I don't think I've ever read a tarot card reading scene that didn't feel like being spoon fed exposition. And props to Erikson for making a world that feels like knowing what the gods are up to is actually really important. Also negative stuff that you'll trash me over because this is most newbie hostile thread on SA. Why is Dujek's name Dujek one arm instead of something like Hairlock, Sorry, Whiskeyjack or Tattersail? There's two different naming schemes in Malazan, but Dujek One-arm is the only example of a third one. I wish the text just came out and stat what the deal is with Rake's sword. It's obvious that something is scary about it. I'm too jaded as a reader to care that it eats your soul or whatever. Just bring up what it does so I can be sure that what it does isn't some creepy fetish of the author. As a warning, if the sword turns you into a Japanese schoolgirl and rapes you tentacles for all eternity, I'm dropping this series no matter how good the later books are. I can buy a squad mage (though I had better get some viewpoints from other Malazan squads and they better have squad mages too) but a squad assassin just screams "fanfiction about the author's RPG campaign".
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Aug 15, 2016 02:08
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I just started this series this year. I am upto Memories of Ice and man this has to be one of the most epic (in terms of scale) fantasy series out there. Loved how Karsa becomes redeemable after probably one of the most despicable point of view characters ever. Also Lostara and Pearl trying to retrace Felisin's route has been a nice side story, I wasn't a fan of these two in Deadhouse Gates but getting a bit more fleshed out in this one.
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Aug 15, 2016 02:11
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Monocled Falcon posted:
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Aug 15, 2016 02:30
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Monocled Falcon posted:Got to say I love the way Malazans talk to each other. They're super distrustful but can't stop lashing out and saying dangerous things that could get them killed. You really get the feeling that they've spent the last six years living under a brutal regime that constantly spying on them and they know that they have to watch what they saw, but the constant stress is just wearing down on them to the point where they can't help but a crack a little under the pressure. get out you piece of poo poo Realtalk: it's explained why later, but it's Malazan Marines that are given names like Fiddler, Sorry, Whiskeyjack when they're in training. Some other characters were given names as well, and that's also explained later. Ganoes Paran goes by his real name because he's not a marine, same with Tavore. Dunno what the deal with Hairlock or Tattersail is, mages can usually make up their own name if they want. Just wait on Rake's sword, the deal will be stated by the end of Gardens. Lunchmeat Larry posted:Yeah, uh, about that... 
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Aug 15, 2016 03:05
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Oh Snapple! posted:Just gonna black bar all of this I guess because I can't locate good points to do it. I compared them because they both make a sacrifice that's underpinned by a message. I see what you're saying about Itkovian and you might be right, though personally it was just too much for me, especially when he blew the T'lan Imass's minds by schooling them on compassion. So my issue probably isn't that we're too "close" to him but that what we see up close in this instance is just overwrought. That said, something neat about Itkovian is how it looks like he's headed to the Prince's tower to wreak vengeance but instead he lets Anaster live on with his despair.
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Aug 15, 2016 03:35
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snoremac posted:I compared them because they both make a sacrifice that's underpinned by a message. I see what you're saying about Itkovian and you might be right, though personally it was just too much for me, especially when he blew the T'lan Imass's minds by schooling them on compassion. So my issue probably isn't that we're too "close" to him but that what we see up close in this instance is just overwrought. I'll say fair enough on that. I think part of the reason Itkovian resonated a lot with me was that when I was reading MoI for the first time I was already super weary of the more cynical trend that was going on with the genre, so in many instances it was extremely refreshing to see an author like Erikson with a genuine respect for selflessness - in the cases of both Coltaine and Itkovian, I feel a lesser author would have been all too eager to summarily punish them for doing what they did (likely through having their sacrifices accomplish nothing). Honestly Itkovian and Coltaine ended up being the foundation of why I like the series so much. Further related to Itkovian, and while this is very vague I'm still gonna tag it anyway cause it's for stuff much later, seeiing how he conducts himself in the Shield Anvil role provides an extremely stark contrast with a later character and without Itkovian's example I don't think that character would work nearly as well.
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Aug 15, 2016 04:25
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snoremac posted:I compared them because they both make a sacrifice that's underpinned by a message. I see what you're saying about Itkovian and you might be right, though personally it was just too much for me, especially when he blew the T'lan Imass's minds by schooling them on compassion. So my issue probably isn't that we're too "close" to him but that what we see up close in this instance is just overwrought. Itkovian's pretty great. Regarding your first spoiler, later on in the series you'll learn just how hard it is to do that.
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Aug 15, 2016 04:29
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The bridgeburners are marines? I was aware that Sorry joined the marines but I thought that she had transferred into the regular army then the bridge burners behind the scenes. How does that make any sense? Marines are maritime troops for ship combat. In case you're wondering I still enjoy Malazan, though I am taking it a lot slower than I usually read, to not miss any details. I'm just a very critical overthinker. Nothing I read I don't pick apart like this.
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Aug 15, 2016 04:51
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