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CommonShore posted:I guess the point is that you should remember that new folks have good chances to learn both offensive and defensive patterns from you, and that being too aggressive or too passive can deny them either. I.e. if that blue belt defends the way you'd expect to see out of a blue/purple belt, let him have it. If the blue belt does a lovely job of defending, then make him tap.
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Sep 15, 2016 23:43
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Siivola posted:As a bit of an aside, this mirrors the coaching advice I've heard. If you really want to take someone to school, keep doing the same thing over and over, just hard enough that they really need to work to defend. And then go just a tiny bit harder on the next go. Well yeah I guess that's the idea. When you're that far above someone else, even if you're not The Teacher, you're still an active part in that person's development. It doesn't matter if it's because of black belt vs white belt, or adult vs child, or athletic guy vs fat guy, or big guy vs small guy, you should always try to conduct yourself in a way to maximize your partner's learning opportunities, which isn't usually that difficult to do or take too much effort. Like I could counter that yellow belt's throw by suplexing him over my head, but his balance break and entry were good, even if his timing wasn't the best, and it was telegraphed, but he's just a frickin' yellow belt. If I spike him on his head, all he'll learn is that he can get his bell rung by attempting that throw. Letting him have the throw - or even just blocking it and letting him continue offensively - gives him some reinforcement for what he did right. That's where learning happens.
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Sep 16, 2016 00:15
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I think I already told this one but here goes anyways : I used to always be paired up with a fridge of a purple belt. A big Algerian dude built like a truck that outweighed me by about 40 pounds of muscle. He would often start bottom but there was simply no way I could do anything as he could outmuscle me any time technique came in too late. There was simply nothing I could do because even when I would try and apply myself to proper passes he could hulk out and simply stand us up. As an example, he could sit up from side control with me on top of him. In the three months I was paired up with him I really cannot say I learned much during my rolls because the weight/strength difference became a real issue. I remember after one particularily difficult roll a few months into my training started I wasn't really feeling very happy and a small aikido blackbelt guy that crosstrained with us took me aside and just rolled lightly with me and coached me through some objectives I should try to reach in the roll, not making me do a sequence from pass to sub, but neat things to keep in mind in the different positions we got into at different times. I still remember a thing or two from that roll. I don't really think it's useful to go full power against someone every day, but can be important at times just to remind the guy that you know what's up and avoid the Dunning-Krueger effect from stopping in.
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Sep 16, 2016 00:46
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Thanks for everyone's insight. I think what I will do is ramp up the difficulty by starting slow then increasing until it's a bit challenging then back off a bit so that my opponent has to work but they are not overwhelmed.
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Sep 16, 2016 01:04
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Yuns posted:White and blue belts, do you prefer if a more experienced guy just let's you work or do you want the higher level guys to roll aggressively/seriously with you? Normally I train with black and brown belts but when I train with white and blue belts I will be very passive. I will take turtle on bottom side control or sometimes guard and let the guy work whatever he wants. I have been thinking lately that by doing that I'm cheating my opponent as well as myself. So about a week or so ago I started rolling normally with the white and blue belts. So do you guys want senior guys to let you work or would you rather have us work seriously against you guys even if it means getting smashed? A mix? It sucks a fat bag of dicks when I get paired up with one of the 250 lb brown belts and it's just a full round of me being crushed and submitted every 10 seconds, but it's also incredibly disheartening when they're passive and play defense and I can't advance position or isolate a limb from an advantageous position.
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Sep 16, 2016 03:59
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Yuns posted:White and blue belts, do you prefer if a more experienced guy just let's you work or do you want the higher level guys to roll aggressively/seriously with you? Normally I train with black and brown belts but when I train with white and blue belts I will be very passive. I will take turtle on bottom side control or sometimes guard and let the guy work whatever he wants. I have been thinking lately that by doing that I'm cheating my opponent as well as myself. So about a week or so ago I started rolling normally with the white and blue belts. So do you guys want senior guys to let you work or would you rather have us work seriously against you guys even if it means getting smashed? I would prefer people who don't take it easy.
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Sep 16, 2016 04:04
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Yuns posted:Thanks for everyone's insight. I think what I will do is ramp up the difficulty by starting slow then increasing until it's a bit challenging then back off a bit so that my opponent has to work but they are not overwhelmed. White belt chiming it, this sounds like a great plan. I roll with Black belt instructor sometimes and I feel completely helpless, but he does a good job of trying to let me work on stuff, then shuts me down like a god damned wizard.
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Sep 16, 2016 04:51
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I placed 3rd in my division at my first ever tournament today! It was a round-robin format with the weight classes grouped by whoever showed up, so of course my worst nightmare came true and I was the lightest guy in my "bracket". Two losses by points (0-2 and 6-8), two wins by submission (ridiculous"verbal tap" and Ezekiel), one win by points (7-0). The "verbal tap" was sort of hilarious because I was smothering the other guy with my chest in mount to get him to freak out and hopefully roll over, but he groaned/yelled loudly enough for the ref to call it. A win is a win! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 5 matches in 45 minutes was rough, but I'd recommend the format highly to anyone looking for some Competition Experience™.
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Sep 18, 2016 01:24
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Congrats dude
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Sep 18, 2016 01:36
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Yuns posted:White and blue belts, do you prefer if a more experienced guy just let's you work or do you want the higher level guys to roll aggressively/seriously with you? Normally I train with black and brown belts but when I train with white and blue belts I will be very passive. I will take turtle on bottom side control or sometimes guard and let the guy work whatever he wants. I have been thinking lately that by doing that I'm cheating my opponent as well as myself. So about a week or so ago I started rolling normally with the white and blue belts. So do you guys want senior guys to let you work or would you rather have us work seriously against you guys even if it means getting smashed? I think this is looking at the wrong aspect of the roll. For my part, I just want you to match my intensity, but beat my technique. Coming from Judo, upper belts evaluate your technique and either counter or accept it based on that. In BJJ they mostly seem to either dominate unequivocally or give up bad positions and then muscle out when they start to feel threatened. What kind of learning environment is that? Show me the holes in my game, not the power of yours
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Sep 18, 2016 14:55
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A Wry Smile posted:In BJJ they mostly seem to either dominate unequivocally or give up bad positions and then muscle out when they start to0 feel threatened. Who? what do you mean?
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Sep 18, 2016 15:18
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Upper belts. Much more common to see a Judo BB take the fall to acknowledge a good throw than to see a BJJ BB tap to a lower belt to acknowledge a good sub attempt. In my bubble I see Jason Manly impersonators every day https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELGUV9B9BXM&t=189s. They act like they're testing your offense, but they'll do literally anything to avoid tapping. And when you finally start catching them expect a quick promotion to save face. I'm sure that's not Yuns but the point was: just match intensity and out-think lower belts. The alternatives are just a bit too self serving for me
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Sep 18, 2016 16:19
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WayneCampbell posted:A mix? It sucks a fat bag of dicks when I get paired up with one of the 250 lb brown belts and it's just a full round of me being crushed and submitted every 10 seconds, but it's also incredibly disheartening when they're passive and play defense and I can't advance position or isolate a limb from an advantageous position. Hi I'm a 250 lb brown belt. Here is my perspective on rolling with white and blue belts. White belts: I'm probably heavier/more controlling than I need to be with white belts. But as a senior belt I feel an obligation to not let a white belt to do something that is going to get themselves hurt, I also have to protect myself from the rather...unpredictable movements of new guys. So I tend to be a little heavy. With white belts that have been around a while I tend to treat them more like blue belts... Blue belts: This is where I loosen up and try new things. If I've been working on a new sweep or a new set up to a sub I start using it in rolls against blue belts. The windows tend to be big enough that I can work my way through a technique where a purple or brown would be able to diagnose what I was doing pretty quickly and shut it down. I'll also do things like let a blue belt start working an armbar and see how deep I can let them get into it and still be able to get out of it. It really helps with my defense and escapes. And sometimes they do it well and tap me.
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Sep 18, 2016 20:37
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Lesson learned in jits yesterday: NEVER let the 350lbs guy play top.
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Sep 18, 2016 21:20
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JaySB posted:Lesson learned in jits yesterday: NEVER let the 350lbs guy play top. Why i love rolling with big guys, if I can keep them from getting a dominant position then guys my size are going to be easier.
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Sep 18, 2016 23:19
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ElMaligno posted:Why i love rolling with big guys, if I can keep them from getting a dominant position then guys my size are going to be easier. Yes, there's a big difference between not letting them get dominant position vs. letting them get it and trying to work from there.
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Sep 19, 2016 00:38
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Discussion topic for all of you theory crafters here. I've been doing both Judo and Jiu Jitsu - and I'm an assistant instructor (trained!) at Judo, and because I'm active in Jiu Jitsu, I often end up teaching/demoing lots of the submission ne waza stuff at Judo. The problem is that quite a bit of the Jiu Jitsu stuff doesn't really work or fit at Judo, and I've figured out why - and here's where you guys come in. Now, the BJJ adage is "position before submission," that is, work on securing your position and advancing to a dominant position before starting to hunt for limbs and necks. In Judo competition rules, this is actually kind of a useless approach - if I get to side control, for example, I'd be an idiot to pop up to knee on belly and spin for a far-side armbar, because all I need to do is hold onto side control for 20 seconds and I win. The submissions in Judo are going to mostly happen in transition or when position is not secure for whatever reasons - "submission if not position." My last couple ne waza lessons have been much more productive since I started keeping this in mind in selecting techniques and sequences, built around common Judo positions which develop when things don't go as planned. One that went over especially well was a series of wake/juji-gatame armbars as responses to the most common bridging and framing escapes from scarf. Tonight we're going to discuss keylocks from top half, contextualized as a failed transition into mount, as a followup to our last newaza drill, which was transitioning between different hold techniques as a way to maintain control. What I'd like from you guys is any ideas for other "submission if not position" attacks. Because of Judo rules they need to be relatively fast - you'll be stood up before you can get mission control from guard and fanangle into a dead orchard, for example. And that quite often referees will not count back control as a dominant position, especially on a facedown opponent. Other things that the group seems to have liked include fishing for rolling inverted triangles on a turtling opponent or yoshida-style crucifix strangles.
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Sep 28, 2016 16:59
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Dave camarillo has a book with similar ideas, catching subs in transition. He has a judo background too so maybe it comes from the same need.
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Sep 28, 2016 17:16
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I have a minor foot injury from running and I'll be out for about 2 weeks. Any advice on what to do BJJ wise to at least feel like I'm accomplishing something. I'm only a white belt with a couple of stripes so I don't know if visualization would work for someone my level (saw it recommended earlier in the thread). When I look at BJJ youtube videos I'm not sure who's the best to watch/what's not practical for me to be focusing on and I also feel like something is lost when I don't try to apply the advice while rolling the next day. I'm open to any suggestions. I can tell not going to class is going to drive me a bit crazy, I've already been putting heavy miles in on my bike.
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Sep 28, 2016 17:29
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Seltzer posted:I have a minor foot injury from running and I'll be out for about 2 weeks. Any advice on what to do BJJ wise to at least feel like I'm accomplishing something. I'm only a white belt with a couple of stripes so I don't know if visualization would work for someone my level (saw it recommended earlier in the thread). When I look at BJJ youtube videos I'm not sure who's the best to watch/what's not practical for me to be focusing on and I also feel like something is lost when I don't try to apply the advice while rolling the next day. I'm open to any suggestions. I can tell not going to class is going to drive me a bit crazy, I've already been putting heavy miles in on my bike. I'm hurt and I go to class and do the basic drills with people, and then only do any uncontrolled drills with people who I trust. Don't be afraid to say "I'm sitting this one out." Xguard86 posted:Dave camarillo has a book with similar ideas, catching subs in transition. He has a judo background too so maybe it comes from the same need. Which book? He has three that I see on Amazon.
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Sep 28, 2016 18:37
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CommonShore posted:Which book? He has three that I see on Amazon. I have guerilla jiu jitsu and it has step by step breakdowns with pics of a lot of the throws straight into submissions that xguard mentions. I particularly liked his grip fighting section when I first bought it back when I was an orange belt.
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Sep 28, 2016 18:43
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Guerilla jiu-jitsu plus another one called submit everyone. The second is all sub chains and subs in transition.
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Sep 28, 2016 20:09
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I've got a copy of Submit Everyone that I would gladly gift someone but the  of actually packaging something and sending it via physical mail seems daunting.I'm sure there is good info in there but I could never get past the retarded combat sit rep presentation. e: also its got a no-gi dude on the cover but all the content is gi, 
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Sep 28, 2016 20:39
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Kekekela posted:I've got a copy of Submit Everyone that I would gladly gift someone but the If you were in Canada I would have offered a trade or something, but there's a cheap enough copy on Amazon.
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Sep 28, 2016 20:59
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Wanted to stop by and say I got my first stripe! I popped in here like 2-3 months ago asking about tips on resistance and how much to provide and how to be a better rolling partner, as I am a bigger guy, and what you guys said helped a lot. I actually caught a guy, who is about to test for his blue belt, in spider guard and held him up for so long the professor came over to show him how to beat it. I think it helped that my legs are super long and he just couldnt reach anything once I got my feet on his hip and bicep/shoulder but Ill take what I can get. One point I actually had him up in the air and brought him down (slowly didnt slam) on his side to the mat. The best part about it all is that I learned spider guard like a month ago, from a girl who weighs 100lbs less then me but when I rolled with her I couldnt do a drat thing. She was kind enough to show me the basics and some tips and I've been rocking it as best I can since then. That is one of the things I like so much about BJJ so far, everyone (at least in my school) wants to help and teach you if you want to learn. No matter the belt whenever I have got caught or tapped out and asked someone "Howd you do that? How would I best set my self up to escape that?" they go into detail and show me. I dont mind tapping when I roll but I am super proud of the real taps I have gotten so far, hasnt been many but Im starting to get stuff down.
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Sep 28, 2016 21:42
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FlyingCowOfDoom posted:Wanted to stop by and say I got my first stripe! I popped in here like 2-3 months ago asking about tips on resistance and how much to provide and how to be a better rolling partner, as I am a bigger guy, and what you guys said helped a lot. 
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Sep 28, 2016 21:47
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Kekekela posted:I've got a copy of Submit Everyone that I would gladly gift someone but the Yeah they over did that stuff and it's annoying. I like the structured format for learning and systematic thinking though.
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Sep 28, 2016 21:52
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Jacked my knee up yesterday rolling. Put my leg back to start to open a closed guard, guy just shifted and I fell back and twisted my knee. Hurt like a motherfucker. Took a bit of a rest, tried to roll again went to hip escape and felt a nice little pop. Now any movement of my knee is painful and walking hurts. 
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Sep 28, 2016 21:56
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JaySB posted:Jacked my knee up yesterday rolling. Put my leg back to start to open a closed guard, guy just shifted and I fell back and twisted my knee. Hurt like a motherfucker. Took a bit of a rest, tried to roll again went to hip escape and felt a nice little pop. Now any movement of my knee is painful and walking hurts. Sorry to hear about that man. I almost had the exact same thing happen to me a few weeks ago when I was on my back fighting for closed guard but I managed to warn the guy I was rolling with "dude dude!" right before he collapsed on my knee and twisted the poo poo out of it. i hope you're not out of commission for long.
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Sep 28, 2016 22:07
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omoplata question: So I go for an omoplata and immediately grab the belt when I make the turn to prevent my opponent from going over his shoulder. I sit up, and his hand is pretty much right in front of me. For Kicks I decide to instead of grabbing his opposite shoulder and lifting up to finish the arm lock, I decide to finish this via wrist lock, is there a down side or a thing higher level BJJ guys do when they've been omoplota'd that would prevent the Wristlock naturally or is this a legit alternative?
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Sep 28, 2016 22:20
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You can wrist lock or catch the arm so when he goes to roll you arm bar him
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Sep 28, 2016 22:56
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CommonShore posted:Discussion topic for all of you theory crafters here. You mentioned it a bit, but I like to work a lot of submissions from top halfguard. Kimura/Americana on the far arm. D'arce if they underhook the far side, sort of wizzer to straight armbar if they underhook the near side. Papercutter choke, head and arm choke. I like working submissions from here because this is the position the referee will give you time in. Full guard you're pretty much standing up immediately. Full pin? As you said, why give up something you have for something you might lose anyway. Plus if your top half submissions are halfway decent it makes freeing the trapped leg trivial as your opponent focuses entirely on defending the sub.
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Sep 29, 2016 04:20
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CommonShore posted:Discussion topic for all of you theory crafters here. I think you're a little off track. In my understanding, 'osaekomi' in Judo is not synonymous with the concept of '(dominant) position' in BJJ. For example, one intention of osaekomi waza is that "Uke is in such discomfort, constrained and constricted to such an extent that Uke cannot escape; or is solely focused on not submitting before the time is up (Kawaishi, 1955:120)." That starts to sound more like a sub, right? Meanwhile, something as far from osaekomi as the Rubber Guard may qualify for the 'position before submission' adage in BJJ. To me, position before submission is universal. Pins lead directly to subs (often chokes, and let's not ignore diaphragm compression here), and escape attempts open up new attacks, but it's not supposed to be an 'either/or' approach. I see Lovato as an excellent reflection of Judo's groundwork philosophy- go in wanting the choke from mount, but it's OK to take what you can get along the way. No? A Wry Smile fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 05:12
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But now, sixty years later, osaekomi is defined by holding one of three positions (scarf, side or north-south) for twenty seconds. In modern judo, pins absolutely do not lead into submissions, because you have exactly zero reason to move from it. Compare to BJJ where the ref will penalise you for not moving. 
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Sep 29, 2016 09:46
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Ok guys, time for my stupid question of the week. Was training last night in my white gi. 6 months old, right out the washing machine, clean. Thing is though, I previously washed it with color gis, so it's a bit discoloured looking. Anyway, this prompted my partner to jokingly say I need to wash my gi. I explained the situ but I don't want people thinking I train in a disgusting gi any more. Is there anything I do, bleech or whatever, to restore the colour, or change the colour, or remove the off-white sheen on my gi? Help and patience always appreciated my brothers.
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Sep 29, 2016 13:19
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A Wry Smile posted:I think you're a little off track. In my understanding, 'osaekomi' in Judo is not synonymous with the concept of '(dominant) position' in BJJ. No, you're right that they're not the exact same in every case, but consider also that many "dominant" positions which don't result in the ref declaring "osaekomi" - rubber guard, back control on turtle, for example - will result in quick judo standups, and so however "dominant" they are, they won't win you the match, and they problably won't even give you an opportunity for the sub. Conversely, riding out the dominant position ahead of the guard is quite a different thing in Judo than in BJJ. If in BJJ you get a throw and scarf hold, it puts you - what, 4 points up? And it leaves you maybe even minutes to ride before you can win on those points, so there's incentive to pass and work and risk giving up a bit of space to go for that submission and end the match earlier. In Judo, that's a mere 20 seconds away from victory, no matter what's on the clock - if you go for that same sequence as in the BJJ match, you're actually turning away from the most direct route to victory and giving your opponent greater chances to stay in the bout. To go for the submissions or to even pass or "advance" leaves plenty of risk of escape. I don't know about you, but I'm much better at maintaining scarf than I am at maintaining mount, and much better at escaping a competent mount than I am at escaping a competent scarf. Anyway that's the fuller logic that led me to start thinking about different paths to submissions. Siivola posted:But now, sixty years later, osaekomi is defined by holding one of three positions (scarf, side or north-south) for twenty seconds. In modern judo, pins absolutely do not lead into submissions, because you have exactly zero reason to move from it. Compare to BJJ where the ref will penalise you for not moving. It's defined as pinning uke's the upper body while having control of your own body - it's more than those three, but yes to the rest.
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Sep 29, 2016 13:45
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I was thinking about this clause in the rulebook:quote:e) The contestant applying Osaekomi must have his body in either the Kesa, the Shiho or Ura position, i.e. similar to the techniques Kesa Gatame, Kami-shiho-gatame or Ura-Gatame. 
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Sep 29, 2016 14:46
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Siivola posted:But now, sixty years later, osaekomi is defined by holding one of three positions (scarf, side or north-south) for twenty seconds. In modern judo, pins absolutely do not lead into submissions, because you have exactly zero reason to move from it. Compare to BJJ where the ref will penalise you for not moving. Old =/= irrelevant. I don't think it's correct to say that the definition of osaekomi has changed just because of its recently limited tournament application. It's well known that there's more to Judo than the descriptions you'll find in the ref's handbook. In the present day, same as in the past, Judoka contribute to the body of semi-philosophical knowledge surrounding the practice by building on the ideas of earlier scholars as well as considering their present competitive environment. In this case the source material you're disputing has been discussed by respected author/competitors regularly, including as recently as 2010.
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Sep 29, 2016 14:52
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CommonShore posted:
If you're allowed to do compression chokes then a fat man choke will work here, since you're in obvious kesa gatame so you won't be stood up right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s0VxxSNu-g Just gotta make sure you're doing the choke and not the neck crank.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:19
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KildarX posted:If you're allowed to do compression chokes then a fat man choke will work here, since you're in obvious kesa gatame so you won't be stood up right? That poo poo is gangbusters and one of our black belts has a terrifyingly powerful kesa/kata gatame of that sort. I always encourage people to go for that kind of finish (and I'm pretty good at getting it myself, actually). It's great because you don't need to sacrifice position to get the sub here. I like that video.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:35
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