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HorseLord posted:east germany did better economically than the UK for quite a while, shoutout to english slum clearance programs lasting until the 21st century Yes, the GDR's economic strength clearly lasted and still pays dividends today.  Remember when you argued that everybody who has fled Cuba is in fact a plutocrat with mansions and plantations and loves death squads?
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Oct 4, 2016 01:49
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Basically Majorian, you're wasting all of our time by feigning concern for what the ignorant plebe believes capitalism is, in a thread about the PSL. Nonsense, somebody asked why we couldn't all agree that capitalism is bad and I answered. If it's a waste of time, in your mind, there's an ignore button. This isn't your safe space; I don't particularly care about what you consider to be a "waste of your time."  Also lol at you whining about libs trolling earlier in this thread. It's CSPAM, what did you expect?
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Oct 4, 2016 01:51
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Majorian posted:Nonsense, somebody asked why we couldn't all agree that capitalism is bad and I answered. If it's a waste of time, in your mind, there's an ignore button. This isn't your safe space; I don't particularly care about what you consider to be a "waste of your time." It was a line addressed to this thread, not the whole of humanity ya dang numbskull.
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Oct 4, 2016 01:53
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:it's nestled in the rear end crack of a subforum on an irrelevant comedy site. i've always wondered why people call SA a "comedy site". i know there used to be a front page which was kind of like a 3rd rate version of the onion, but that hasn't mattered since like 2002 or something, is it still online?
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Oct 4, 2016 01:56
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:It was a line addressed to this thread, not the whole of humanity ya dang numbskull. It's still the same answer and I think you know it. The Marxists here, and their target audience that they're trying to convince, don't agree on even the most basic definition of terms.
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Oct 4, 2016 01:58
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Different people have all sorts of ideas and this is a terrible dilemma.
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Oct 4, 2016 02:00
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Do we all believe that capitalism is a system?
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Oct 4, 2016 02:06
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Majorian posted:It's still the same answer and I think you know it. The Marxists here, and their target audience that they're trying to convince, don't agree on even the most basic definition of terms. Maybe you should let all the capitalism lovers speak for themselves, instead of assuming that nobody in the PSL thread can agree on what "capitalism" is.
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Oct 4, 2016 02:06
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I think "capitalism" is that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you exploit the global working class.
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Oct 4, 2016 02:12
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resar posted:I think "capitalism" is that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you exploit the global working class. I mean, given that a laissez-faire system is pretty much the best way to accomplish this, sure, why not.
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Oct 4, 2016 02:26
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resar posted:I think "capitalism" is that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you exploit the global working class. That Capitaljism.
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Oct 4, 2016 02:30
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Bro Dad posted:Yeah nothing says success like East Germany and North Korea maybe you could try processing something after you read it before defaulting to whatever john bircher line is next on the wheel of bromides. i'm speaking specifically to their processes of transitioning to collective farming, which saw none of the famine or problems the ussr faced
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Oct 4, 2016 02:39
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Homework Explainer posted:maybe you could try processing something after you read it before defaulting to whatever john bircher line is next on the wheel of bromides. Saying that North Korea and/or East Germany weren't successes isn't exactly a John Bircher line. It's pretty widely regarded as the truth.
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Oct 4, 2016 03:06
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Much as always, nuance is impossible when talking about formerly communist administrated countries. It is much better to talk past each other with maximum snark and good dose of of moral superiority.
Homeless Friend fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 03:12
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Homeless Friend posted:Much as always, nuance is impossible when talking about formerly communist administrated countries. It is much better to talk past each other with maximum snark and good dose of of moral superiority. nah it's just that we don't take this thread seriously enough
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Oct 4, 2016 05:14
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Majorian posted:Saying that North Korea and/or East Germany weren't successes isn't exactly a John Bircher line. It's pretty widely regarded as the truth. The sentence literally immediately after what you quoted is this: Homework Explainer posted:i'm speaking specifically to their processes of transitioning to collective farming, which saw none of the famine or problems the ussr faced
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Oct 4, 2016 05:25
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I saw a guy in a PSL T shirt getting a sub at Jersey Mike's yesterday. I'd post the picture but I don't want to doxx anybody
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Oct 4, 2016 05:35
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Odobenidae posted:The sentence literally immediately after what you quoted is this: Yes, I get that. I'm not convinced that collectivization didn't play a role in exacerbating the famines.
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Oct 4, 2016 06:17
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Majorian posted:Yes, I get that. I'm not convinced that collectivization didn't play a role in exacerbating the famines. What do you mean by "the famines"? Do you mean the East German Famine of Never, or the Famine in North Korea that happened 40 years after they collectivized? I really don't think you get it because you seem to be talking about something else entirely.
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Oct 4, 2016 06:39
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Odobenidae posted:What do you mean by "the famines"? Do you mean the East German Famine of Never, or the Famine in North Korea that happened 40 years after they collectivized? I really don't think you get it because you seem to be talking about something else entirely. The Arduous March was absolutely partially the result of collectivization. That's not a controversial point d00d. e: Like, your whole "it happened 40 years after they collectivized, so that CAN'T be at fault!  " argument would be more convincing, if their ability to feed themselves hadn't been guaranteed for that time period by an outside superpower.
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Oct 4, 2016 06:56
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Majorian posted:The Arduous March was absolutely partially the result of collectivization. That's not a controversial point d00d. Not a controversial point? Here's some controversy for you d00dz: I'm disagreeing with it. and seeing as how you've now masterfully edited your post to "absolutely partially (what?) the result of" instead of "absolutely the result of" it seems that whatever hasty google searches you made in that time made you yourself think otherwise as well. Morzhovyye fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 07:17
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Odobenidae posted:Not a controversial point? Here's some controversy for you d00dz: I'm disagreeing with it. Yeah, well, all available evidence disagrees with you. quote:and seeing as how you've now masterfully edited your post to "absolutely partially (what?) the result of" instead of "absolutely the result of" That's actually not what I edited out, but nice guess. 
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Oct 4, 2016 07:26
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The burden of proof is on you to prove it dingus. I'm sure if it's such common knowledge it won't be hard to show me some of that sweet sweet evidence.
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Oct 4, 2016 07:29
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Majorian posted:Yeah, well, all available evidence disagrees with you. Hey, guess what? Communism will win
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Oct 4, 2016 07:29
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Odobenidae posted:The burden of proof is on you to prove it dingus. I'm sure if it's such common knowledge it won't be hard to show me some of that sweet sweet evidence. Nam Sung-wook's "Chronic Food Shortages and the Collective Farm System in North Korea" has a good summary. JSTOR allows you to read it online for free. Error 404 posted:Hey, guess what? It may.
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Oct 4, 2016 07:34
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Majorian posted:Nam Sung-wook's "Chronic Food Shortages and the Collective Farm System in North Korea" has a good summary. JSTOR allows you to read it online for free. The small section about collectivization (which is what we're talking about; the processes of transitioning to collective farming) doesn't seem to say anything about absolutely partially causing any famines forty years in the future. Do you really think that forty years after collectivization had ended, the processes of transitioning to collective farming rose from their grave and caused a famine? This wraps around to my earlier post, where I put forth the idea of "You Don't Get It, You're Talking About Something Else Entirely". I continue to stand by that idea.
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Oct 4, 2016 07:57
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Majorian posted:e: Like, your whole "it happened 40 years after they collectivized, so that CAN'T be at fault! You know that many countries in the world are guaranteed the ability to feed themselves by outside powers, right? A lot of countries in the First World are food importers. This isn't a particular knock against collectivization. http://www.indexmundi.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/agricultural-imports-and-exports.png
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Oct 4, 2016 08:02
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DANCE, PUPPETSMajorian posted:E: the PSL thread in cspam is very easy to put bees in their collective bonnet btw.
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Oct 4, 2016 08:17
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Anyway, as long as we're on the famine talk: How are we supposed to deal with the massive demographic speedbump between 1930 and 1940, without assuming it's a failure of capitalism?
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Oct 4, 2016 08:28
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hey Majorian, when we're talking about capitalism sucking we're talking about capitalism as defined by the bourgeois owning the means of production. watered down, this is pretty much what Bernie is talking about when he says the the top 1% own more wealth then the bottom 90% or whatever. basically, the richest of the richest own all the capital and the means of production in a state and thus have all the power. socialism is where workers overtake the ruling class and own the means of production, so that they get to call the shots and have the power in a country, thus making it beneficial for everyone in theory. i think that is what most people mean when they say they hate capitalism and want socialism. PSL doesn't want what bernie wants which is social democracy, which is still capitalism and is prone to the same problems as any other form of capitalism, in terms of the ruling class calling the shots and exploiting the working class. in short, all capitalisms are the same, and leftists seek to change that system into a better one.
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Oct 4, 2016 08:48
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Back in 2006 I was an anti-communist liberal who would be totally on board with ComHam (check my rap sheet!) and thought it was silly that commies hated liberals. In 2009 I was a Bernie Sanders style weak social democrat who thought it was weird that commies hated liberals so much. But now here I am. What a weird world we live in huh
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Oct 4, 2016 17:04
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Odobenidae posted:DANCE, PUPPETS
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Oct 4, 2016 17:07
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Back in 2006 I was an anti-communist liberal who would be totally on board with ComHam (check my rap sheet!) and thought it was silly that commies hated liberals. In 2009 I was a Bernie Sanders style weak social democrat who thought it was weird that commies hated liberals so much. But now here I am. What a weird world we live in huh yeah, i never really truly got the hate for dems until this election having a couple of supposed progressives tell me that funding murder squads was a necessary evil really opened my eyes
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Oct 4, 2016 17:15
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Condiv posted:yeah, i never really truly got the hate for dems until this election if capitalism uses death squads and communism uses death squads maybe the answer is in the middle
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Oct 4, 2016 18:56
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resar posted:if capitalism uses death squads and communism uses death squads maybe the answer is in the middle fascism's death squads are the hugest and most big league, just the best, i'm telling you
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Oct 5, 2016 01:02
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i can probably answer actual questions about the party now that my city has calmed down a bit
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Oct 5, 2016 02:01
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lol people in this thread are actually defending collectivization
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Oct 5, 2016 04:15
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Marinol posted:PSL doesn't want what bernie wants which is social democracy, which is still capitalism and is prone to the same problems as any other form of capitalism, in terms of the ruling class calling the shots and exploiting the working class. in short, all capitalisms are the same, and leftists seek to change that system into a better one. this is true only in the sense where bernie wants a better and more equitable society for everyone leftists wants to shoot each other over ideological purity
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Oct 5, 2016 04:22
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yeah but clearly capitalism isn't working, and even social democracy is starting to show its cracks in Europe. if we truly want a just society, we have to change who calls the shots and how things are run. otherwise poo poo will get worse and worse until there is nothing left. social democracy is just taping over the cracks temporarily while they continue to get bigger. and yeah, there's like a million kinds of leftist thought but we can all agree that capitalism is not working, at least. the challenge is to get everyone to agree on a concrete course of action. bernie killed rosa fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Oct 5, 2016 |
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Oct 5, 2016 04:48
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Marinol posted:but we can all agree that capitalism is not working, at least. this would require agreeing on a common definition of capitalism more rigorous than 'that bad poo poo that those corporations do' also relative to the other 99% of recorded human history modern capitalism is working pretty drat good
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Oct 5, 2016 05:16
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