Typo posted:

and of course to keep ideological purity and purge the party of deviants like anarchists and/or trots

Arri posted:

Oh, I'm sorry, did I stumble into the Marxist-Leninist thread instead of the socialism and liberation thread? Everyone who supports vanguard parties thinks they're going to be part of the vanguard. All you're doing is setting up another elite class to exploit the lower classes. "The vanguard party destroyed the anarchist communes that were actually a good model for actual working communism, and instituted state capitalism" isn't exactly a convincing argument for another vanguard.

Authoritarians lol

HorseLord posted:

instead of solving this problem we just whine on the internet about how our opposition is really mean

Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:

So PSL got about nine thousand votes last time without P&F on board, what's the over/under for this year?

GunnerJ posted:

idk maybe they expected other socialists to not attack them.

HorseLord posted:

seriously anarchists, how does saying "The vanguard party destroyed the anarchist communes" not make you think for a moment that your communes failed to survive attacks because they were poo poo?

it's like designing a tank with no armour and then going "I would have won the war if the other army wasn't so mean as to shoot at us!"

like what the gently caress do you expect to happen idiot

HorseLord posted:

i figure if you expect literally your enemy to not attack you you're dumb as gently caress

GunnerJ posted:

I guess maybe my thing here is that I don't understand why two groups that want to overthrow capitalism should necessarily be enemies.

Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:

I mean, there's a lot to be said for your logic, HorseLord. Looking at the poor track record of vanguard parties overthrowing capitalist states -- well, heck, could it be that it's because they're poo poo?

Aeolius posted:

hi


i've seen this line before, sort of a pithy "fox news"-style aphorism that betrays confusion about the term.

a vanguard is not a group of "leaders" so much as "ideologists." it's literally just people engaged in active pedagogy and organizing to help improve class consciousness among the mass of workers. the point is inclusiveness, not exclusiveness

case in point: if you want in on a revolutionary vanguard, get in on it. organizing is hard work and it can be a huge hassle to find motivated individuals keen on it, so if you think that describes you, the best way to show it is to step up without having to be prompted as I am presently prompting you

Fiction posted:

Ah, a Maoist!

HorseLord posted:

well it's basically like this

communists: i have an idea, we could do X

anarchists: that's totalitarian, we should [ plagiarism of what the communists just said, but rephrased in a long winded way to use different words], also we're robbing your trains and collaborating with tsarists btw

Wikkheiser posted:

.

Arri posted:

Where are the actual revolutionary Marxist Leninists in the real world struggling against capitalism?

The Kingfish posted:

Not really. Traditionally speaking Anarchism doesn't actually mean a total lack of social organization. Though I'm sure that a majority of modern anarchists don't have any clue about this, (in the same way that the majority of everyone has no clue about anything).

rudatron posted:

It does mean the lack of a state though, and unless you have a model of collective action without a 'center', you don't have a system

honestly the whole thing to me just seems bizarre, division of labor is an economic necessity, and that has political implications, namely you can't have a majority of people politically involved at any one time. you can't reverse that, so the existence of a 'state' is now an economic necessity, because you're always going to need a set of people with the specific knowledge & skills necessary to solve collective problems.

like anarchism to me just seems to me like what the stereotypical teenager would believe is the ideal political system - full of angst, wanting to be taken seriously, but still really immature

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Arri posted:

Yeah I guess the Makhnovschina never existed, and anarchists today aren't supporting the people in Greece, nor are they fighting ISIS, Russia, Syria, Turkey and the US, in Kurdistan and Rojava, aka actually opposing capitalism and totalitarian/authoritarian regimes.

Where are the actual revolutionary Marxist Leninists in the real world struggling against capitalism? Voting in the US elections? Not pathetic at all compared to what the red and black is actually accomplishing and making communism work in reality as opposed to trying to vote away the wealth of the capitalist at the ballot box once a year or every four years. Truly it is the Marxist Leninists voting in US elections that are spearheading the real path to communism as opposed to those actually practicing it.

Anarchists have actually practiced your communism and made it work, unlike the typical Marxist-Leninist devolution into state capitalism immediately after gaining power. I guess being literally betrayed by the so-called vanguard party of communists when you're practicing actual communism as defined by Marx is being weak and foolish instead of victim to authoritarians hungry for power.

How long was the dictatorship of the proletariat supposed to last again?

Arri posted:

Yeah I guess the Makhnovschina never existed, and anarchists today aren't supporting the people in Greece, nor are they fighting ISIS, Russia, Syria, Turkey and the US, in Kurdistan and Rojava, aka actually opposing capitalism and totalitarian/authoritarian regimes.

Where are the actual revolutionary Marxist Leninists in the real world struggling against capitalism? Voting in the US elections? Not pathetic at all compared to what the red and black is actually accomplishing and making communism work in reality as opposed to trying to vote away the wealth of the capitalist at the ballot box once a year or every four years. Truly it is the Marxist Leninists voting in US elections that are spearheading the real path to communism as opposed to those actually practicing it.

Anarchists have actually practiced your communism and made it work, unlike the typical Marxist-Leninist devolution into state capitalism immediately after gaining power. I guess being literally betrayed by the so-called vanguard party of communists when you're practicing actual communism as defined by Marx is being weak and foolish instead of victim to authoritarians hungry for power.

How long was the dictatorship of the proletariat supposed to last again?

HorseLord posted:

seriously anarchists, how does saying "The vanguard party destroyed the anarchist communes" not make you think for a moment that your communes failed to survive attacks because they were poo poo?

it's like designing a tank with no armour and then going "I would have won the war if the other army wasn't so mean as to shoot at us!"

Enjoy posted:

Did you know Makhno only survived as long as he did because he established a secret police that conscripted peasants, rooted out Bolsheviks and tortured and executed prisoners? Pages 103-104 http://www.dropbox.com/s/t67p8ob6tft3dfp/Nestor_Makhno%20michael%20malet.pdf

HorseLord posted:

2) the largest strike in human history is currently happening and spearheaded by above-ground marxist leninists

Grand Prize Winner posted:

Ahhh, that old circular firing squad sure works well for us. I'm gonna go out and revolutionize things my own way, by throwing beer bottles at fancy-looking cars from an overpass.