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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I let this go because the thread had already moved on by the time I came back, but your solution to the crisis of resource exhaustion was literally to create new matter. I didn't let this go because you still think profit is necesarily tied to growth and just generally have no understanding of the system your identity is built around opposing. A capitalist profit driven economy could be completely sustainable.
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Oct 21, 2016 23:55
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gently caress it nevermind
Karl Barks fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Oct 22, 2016 |
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Oct 22, 2016 00:44
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Ok- tensions between the global south and north continue to grow just as international cooperation becomes necessary to prevent the world from dying. That's what's happening at the moment, and it's not sustainable.
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Oct 22, 2016 01:03
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asdf32 posted:A capitalist profit driven economy could be completely sustainable. so your whole point is that theoretically, capitalist economies could be sustainable
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Oct 22, 2016 01:07
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Karl Barks posted:so your whole point is that theoretically, capitalist economies could be sustainable To a Marxist there is a huge difference between capitalism being theoretically sustainable or not and the idea that it's not is a key piece of the conspiracy-theory-esque message.
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Oct 22, 2016 01:32
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asdf32 posted:To a Marxist there is a huge difference between capitalism being theoretically sustainable or not and the idea that it's not is a key piece of the conspiracy-theory-esque message. what you're saying wouldn't be capitalism, i'm trying to imagine what you're talking about existing and i'm guessing it's some techno future with fusion and what not? lol
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Oct 22, 2016 01:36
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it's not an identity it's an ideology. get with the times old man
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Oct 22, 2016 01:45
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Karl Barks posted:what you're saying wouldn't be capitalism, i'm trying to imagine what you're talking about existing and i'm guessing it's some techno future with fusion and what not? lol Umm no. Let's try an example again to make sure we're on the same page: Capitalist pizza shop: 500k revenue, pays 4 employees 200k total Socialist pizza shop: the same The economics and outcomes can be identical, the difference is two words: in the capitalist example we take one employee and call them owner and we rename their pay "profit". The outcome in terms of who gets paid what doesn't need to change. The capitalist pizza shop is no more dependent on growth than the socialist one. Neither is necesarily more sustainable than the other.
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Oct 22, 2016 01:51
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Lets not go back to trying to argue with brick walls
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Oct 22, 2016 01:56
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hello i am a pizza shop worker in capitalism and i make $50k ama
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Oct 22, 2016 01:57
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jesus christ
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Oct 22, 2016 01:58
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Which part of the complicated example are you struggling to follow?
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Oct 22, 2016 02:03
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asdf32 posted:Umm no. Let's try an example again to make sure we're on the same page: It's funny that you think that a capitalist pizza shop would pay employees more than they actually need to. That's not acting in the owner's rational self-interest! Wages naturally race to the bottom in private ownership. If your competitor is paying their workers $5/hr and you are paying them $10/hr, your costs will be higher and you will have to charge more. Your pizza probably isn't good enough to justify that, so you have to lower your wages to compete. Now if all of the workers in the pizza shop owned a proportional slice of the profit based on the work they do, then you would actually have your ideal pizza shop. Pizza shop owner not working? Off to the gulag! (or just boot out the door I guess, we don't have to get nasty unless the cops show up)
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Oct 22, 2016 02:03
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Heh also I didn't specify how much people made. Maybe the owner made 150k. Also the numbers don't matter.
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Oct 22, 2016 02:32
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asdf32 posted:Heh
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Oct 22, 2016 02:37
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But why would anyone want to eat dirty commie pizza when they could have a piece of the sweet capitalist pie.
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Oct 22, 2016 02:43
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asdf32 posted:Heh also I didn't specify how much people made. Maybe the owner made 150k. capitalist pizza shop: owner makes 140k, employees make 20k, owner retains the right to fire the employees if they don't work hard or say mean things to him but they do not have the power to fire him for same socialist pizza shop: all four employees make 50k, everybody has a say in who gets fired the former is absolutely sustainable as long as the three employees are making enough to eat, rent or buy (lol) shelter, and are emotionally and psychologically satisfied with their situation (and the precariousness of it, due to the cost of things like healthcare) enough that it's still preferable to economic cheating, crime, or revolutionary violence wouldn't it be nice to course-correct to a more egalitarian system BEFORE we get there?
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Oct 22, 2016 02:50
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Well that's a completely different (and better) argument than the capitalism needs growth thing so that's good.
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Oct 22, 2016 02:56
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So you're just ignoring population growth?
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Oct 22, 2016 03:13
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Was reading about Krushchev's thaw and the secret speech (opinions on that btw?) When I found out that Grover Furr works at the university my wife attends  Shall I go and ask him tankie questions for this thread?
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Oct 22, 2016 04:53
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Nah, no need, he already posts on SA.
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Oct 22, 2016 04:56
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+2 psl votes here. I was real happy to vote for la riva/banks this time in Colorado. Girlfriend initially wasn't sure if she'd go green or red, but Dennis Banks on the ticket made it a super easy choice for her. Already taking flak for it, but whatever
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Oct 22, 2016 05:59
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thats not candy posted:+2 psl votes here. I was real happy to vote for la riva/banks this time in Colorado. Girlfriend initially wasn't sure if she'd go green or red, but Dennis Banks on the ticket made it a super easy choice for her. god bless
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Oct 22, 2016 06:54
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thats not candy posted:+2 psl votes here. I was real happy to vote for la riva/banks this time in Colorado. Girlfriend initially wasn't sure if she'd go green or red, but Dennis Banks on the ticket made it a super easy choice for her. 
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Oct 22, 2016 08:22
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Nevermind how economic systems are tied to every asset of social life and it's real life consequences and struggles. As you can CLEARLY see, capitalism can work with no growth if reduced to a closed theoretical model operating in a vacuum. Heh
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Oct 22, 2016 11:10
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Guy, what if the capitalist calls his extracted surplus wages, not profit? Check and mate, pinkos.
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Oct 22, 2016 12:12
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like, if you abstract away every difference between socialist and capitalist organisation no poo poo there's no difference between them the marxist argument for unsustainability of capitalism necessarily involves propositions about what people will do. a capitalist pizza shop - ludicrous as it is to hang an analysis of an economic system on the behaviour of a single firm - would not operate, on average, the same way as a socialist pizza shop, due to the different incentives and power structures involved in the fact that 'owner' is not an empty signifier asdf i get that you want to be critical of marxism - i'm not a marxist either - but your arguments tend to be tediously thick and lazy due to your belief that you have this whole thing all figured out already and you're arguing with red-dye tissue paper rather than anything you need even pretend to respect you simply are not in the position of easy intellectual superiority you attempt to speak from, you're an interested amateur, and the painful obviousness of this is why you have the worst reputation of any marxthread regular short of the handful of similarly lazy counterparts Peel fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Oct 22, 2016 |
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Oct 22, 2016 12:42
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Peel posted:Guy, what if the capitalist calls his extracted surplus wages, not profit? Peel posted:like, if you abstract away every difference between socialist and capitalist organisation no poo poo there's no difference between them Well put except you get that our friend here literally still doesn't understand this? Not all Marxists make this particular mistake but it's also not an accident. Entangling people in the language (in ways Marx didn't necessarily intend) is one of the ways Marxism continues to propagate itself in 2016. quote:asdf i get that you want to be critical of marxism - i'm not a marxist either - but your arguments tend to be tediously thick and lazy due to your belief that you have this whole thing all figured out already and you're arguing with red-dye tissue paper rather than anything you need even pretend to respect The thing I think I've figured out is "the answers don't primarily come from a 19th century book or a single legal distinction" and this ranks with other 'superior' personal insights such as "government is good", "humans are causing climate change" and "life evolved". I want to see you back this up with a coherent stance on what intellectual authority is and whether armatures like ourselves can have it on any subject. Regardless this forum is filled with people who think they 'have it figured out' and a whole bunch of them are on display right here. So I don't see that landing on me particularly well (tedious is probably a good one though).
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Oct 22, 2016 14:30
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No one thinks we have it figured out. Its pretty clear you definitely do not, though.
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Oct 22, 2016 14:45
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Guys, I figured it out. The answer is commie deep dish pizza.
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Oct 22, 2016 14:46
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Deimus posted:Nevermind how economic systems are tied to every asset of social life and it's real life consequences and struggles. Lol because this is what Marxism is. Capitalism reduced to simplistic form as one guy saw it in the 1860's with an entire set of world altering conclusions drawn from that. On the other hand modern liberalism is the messiest, least consistent and most complicated human organization structure yet created. Supporters clearly aren't interested in theoretical purity.
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Oct 22, 2016 14:48
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Last time I checked we were still brutally exploiting the global south for cheap labor value so I think marxos conclusions hold up pretty well. I haven't done a lot of reading on the "half assed internet posts by insufferable liberals" front though so my knowledge may be lacking.
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Oct 22, 2016 14:53
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asdf32 posted:Lol because this is what Marxism is. Capitalism reduced to simplistic form as one guy saw it in the 1860's with an entire set of world altering conclusions drawn from that. You aren't convincing anyone that you've read Marx, or political economy at all man. If you're interested then go learn about it, you're confused and it's obvious to everyone.
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Oct 22, 2016 15:06
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Fiction posted:Last time I checked we were still brutally exploiting the global south for cheap labor value so I think marxos conclusions hold up pretty well. I haven't done a lot of reading on the "half assed internet posts by insufferable liberals" front though so my knowledge may be lacking. Marx renamed 'apple' to 'pear' and pears (really apples) still exist so Marx was right!
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Oct 22, 2016 15:10
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You are aware that employees can't fire their bosses, right? Just checking in here.
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Oct 22, 2016 15:15
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thats not candy posted:+2 psl votes here. I was real happy to vote for la riva/banks this time in Colorado. Girlfriend initially wasn't sure if she'd go green or red, but Dennis Banks on the ticket made it a super easy choice for her. Hell yeah!!
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Oct 22, 2016 15:16
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Capitalism needs growth because returns on holding capital are higher than those on working, meaning that without growth you establish an aristocracy of capital and eliminate most of the dynamism of capitalist economies.
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Oct 22, 2016 15:17
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asdf32 posted:Lol because this is what Marxism is. Capitalism reduced to simplistic form as one guy saw it in the 1860's with an entire set of world altering conclusions drawn from that. The most recent example of this is Hugo Chavez. If you read the socialist papers around 10 years ago, you'd get the impression that he represented the future. Remember the term "21st Century Socialism," right? And it was hard to argue with his supporters, because Chavez was getting poo poo done and not bothering with what his critics thought, while the United States plunged into a recession and destroyed its own credibility with the Iraq War. But just as quick, the U.S.'s liberal system dragged itself out ... only to land on its face again with the police crackdown at Ferguson, the rise of Donald Trump, etc. Now, if you read socialist papers, the line is that Trump will lose, but whatever comes next will be worse because liberal-capitalism's fundamental contradictions will have gone unsolved. "We must redouble our efforts at strengthening the socialist tradition and standing against the siren call of lesser-evilism!" But more likely than not, liberalism will muddle through as it always has, because it's just too chaotic to stay pinned down in one place for too long. While the last big attempt to build a no-nonsense socialism (in Venezuela) imploded catastrophically the moment it hit its first actual crisis. There's a similar attraction on the illiberal, authoritarian right toward Putin, but I'd bet that messy, adaptable liberalism will outlast him, too.
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Oct 22, 2016 15:24
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I'm sure the thousands of people killing themselves when their homes are foreclosed on during the next financial crisis will be satisfied that we tried just tried really hard to stop it from happening without actually changing the economic structure that caused it in the first place
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Oct 22, 2016 15:27
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Sure its cheaper for energy companies to lobby for nonsense like "clean coal" instead of adapting to material conditions because it's better at maximizing profit while the world literally burns from climate change, but at least we were able to compromise with them really really good.
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Oct 22, 2016 15:33
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