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It sounds like he's primo material for Neoreaction, the bit of the Dork Enlightenment that justify their racism with ridiculously longwinded tracts written in the biggest words they can find. Point him at Mencius Moldbug, you won't hear from him again for about a year as he reads it all. But basically it sounds like he's well off into ridiculous dickland and mere facts aren't going to do a thing at this stage.
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Feb 17, 2017 13:00
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VitalSigns posted:*extremely my dad voice* "Also, Medicaid divorces were and are somehow totally not a known case of us crackers gaming the system, because the system isn't supposed to hurt Real Americans. You'll understand when you're old enough to have estranged children of your own"
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Feb 17, 2017 15:29
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VitalSigns posted:Her kids from different daddies grow up without a virtuous male role model and turn to drugs, crime, and gangbanging.
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Feb 17, 2017 16:33
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VitalSigns posted:*extremely my dad voice*
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Feb 17, 2017 16:54
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Halloween Jack posted:I'm sorry but your dad sounds like some alt-right loser fantasizing that without welfare, some woman would be forced to sit on his lovely little baby garbage dick. This is literally my dad unfortunately  He likes to quote Breitbart at me at length and make non-sequiturs about how "Men's feelings aren't considered in [INSERT CONVERSATION TOPIC HERE]", at which point everyone just kind of looks at each other and continues the conversation without him. MikeCrotch fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 16:59
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VitalSigns posted:Why do Denmark and other generous welfare states not show signs of this cultural decline, if welfare caused that their crime rates should be through the roof, no? The actual answer here is that their welfare systems tend to have fewer traps and their prison system and recidivism rates are waaaay better. Being monocultural probably causes fewer people problems because humans are all about the in-group but the melting pot has been consistently worth the pain IMHO. Also because monocultural poo poo tends to infringe on individual freedom of movement, belief, etc. But yeah the Great Society geniuses should've listened to Milton Friedman back when he told them basic income was better than entitlements and most of this could've been avoided. At least he managed to get the EITC in there!
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Feb 17, 2017 18:21
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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MikeCrotch posted:This is literally my dad unfortunately
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Feb 17, 2017 18:31
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DeusExMachinima posted:The actual answer here is that their welfare systems tend to have fewer traps and their prison system and recidivism rates are waaaay better. Being monocultural probably causes fewer people problems because humans are all about the in-group but the melting pot has been consistently worth the pain IMHO. Also because monocultural poo poo tends to infringe on individual freedom of movement, belief, etc. A strong welfare state and a focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment has a lot to do with it. That and a lack of America's insane drug laws. It turns out that not turning addicts into second class citizens goes a long way toward reducing crime. Taken together that stuff really reduces the desperation that leads people into situations where they're more likely to commit crimes. In america we have this weird idea that if you get caught with so much as an ounce of the devil's weed then you deserve to be thrown into a violent rape dungeon for multiple years then never make more than minimum wage ever again and even that is too good for you.
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Feb 17, 2017 19:07
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DeusExMachinima posted:The actual answer here is that their welfare systems tend to have fewer traps and their prison system and recidivism rates are waaaay better. Being monocultural probably causes fewer people problems because humans are all about the in-group but the melting pot has been consistently worth the pain IMHO. Also because monocultural poo poo tends to infringe on individual freedom of movement, belief, etc. Can't have universal benefits and exclude black people at the same time. That is the essential contradiction of the new deal. Even the great society PR stuff focused on white poverty in Appalachia.
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Feb 17, 2017 19:19
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ToxicSlurpee posted:A strong welfare state and a focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment has a lot to do with it. That and a lack of America's insane drug laws. It turns out that not turning addicts into second class citizens goes a long way toward reducing crime. Taken together that stuff really reduces the desperation that leads people into situations where they're more likely to commit crimes. There does need to be punishment, but that is the whole point of going to prison and losing part of your life. The rest of it should be spent making it so that they have the skills and support needed that once they get back into society they can support themselves and not just end up in jail again.
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Feb 17, 2017 19:31
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Hunt11 posted:There does need to be punishment, nah
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Feb 17, 2017 19:39
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GunnerJ posted:nah I agree that "punishment is needed" is dumb in the moralistic/comic book sense, but more practically it's necessary for any justice system to retain its legitimacy over the alternative, like say, blood feuds.
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Feb 17, 2017 19:43
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GunnerJ posted:nah Then what should be done then?
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Feb 17, 2017 19:46
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GunnerJ posted:nah I'm all for rehabilitation both for humanitarian and fiscal reasons, but I've gotta admit that poo poo like serial rapists, violent domestic abusers threatening partners with deadly weapons, and dudes like Dylann Roof, I don't see any way they should get out. If a guy shoots someone else over a drug dispute then by itself that's nothing personal necessarily and the answer would've been for society not to create that situation in the first place. Rehab is possible. Someone who's going on a rape spree across a campus with club drugs isn't accidentally making the mistake of not doing due diligence with consent. They actively don't give a gently caress and it's not like they're being forced into raping someone because the alternative is starving in the hood. I don't see how you can ever trust those sorts of people ever again.
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Feb 17, 2017 19:51
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My dad works in corrections. According to him there are three types of people who go to jail. 1. Regular people who screw up. 2. Mentally ill people who can't really help it. 3. People who are just loving evil. Obviously the second group shouldn't be in with the third, and ideally neither should the first.
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Feb 17, 2017 20:01
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Captain_Maclaine posted:I agree that "punishment is needed" is dumb in the moralistic/comic book sense, but more practically it's necessary for any justice system to retain its legitimacy over the alternative, like say, blood feuds. The context is people getting jailed for weed, yo. eta: Aight, the first sentence was about "punishment vs. rehabilitation" in a general sense but everything else was about pot so I feel euphoric about my "nah" nonetheless. GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 20:07
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GunnerJ posted:The context is people getting jailed for weed, yo. If we are talking about an ideal court system then most drugs would be legal except for the really hosed up poo poo like Crocodil.
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Feb 17, 2017 20:09
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Yeah people always forget when they see these happy resort scandinavian prisons that that is just one type of prison for one stream of prisoners who have been deemed suitable for those programs, they still have places to lock away the irredeemably evil and untreatable mentally ill. They just actually have the sense to separate these streams.
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Feb 17, 2017 20:13
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GunnerJ posted:The context is people getting jailed for weed, yo. That, and any number of similar junk laws. Sodomy, caste-crossing marriages, various political and religious imprisonments, etc. Weed's a bullshit reason to be arrested or serve time. Subset of Radon dad's 1) category I guess, or a category of its own: the unduly arrested or unjustly convicted.
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Feb 17, 2017 20:14
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GunnerJ posted:The context is people getting jailed for weed, yo. Well yeah that poo poo's wack, but I was just referring to how punishment is an inescapable part of a functional justice system and also ours.
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Feb 17, 2017 20:15
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Well yeah that poo poo's wack, but I was just referring to how punishment is an inescapable part of a functional justice system and also ours. Not really I think. Ours yes but functional no. Containment is not punishment.
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Feb 17, 2017 20:23
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OwlFancier posted:Not really I think. Ours yes but functional no. Containment is not punishment. It might not be much, particularly compared with the barbarity of US prisons, but it serves the punishment function which I'm arguing is a necessary element of criminal justice.
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Feb 17, 2017 20:40
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Captain_Maclaine posted:It might not be much, particularly compared with the barbarity of US prisons, but it serves the punishment function which I'm arguing is a necessary element of criminal justice. What is the "punishment function"? Because just hurting people doesn't really serve much purpose save to tittilate those inclined to enjoy it. If you're phrased it as "punishment serves the containment function" I might understand more if still rather disagree.
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Feb 17, 2017 20:44
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OwlFancier posted:What is the "punishment function"? I'm referring to that mechanism found within even the oldest law codes that satisfies victims of this or that offense that justice has been done and they therefore don't launch a private vendetta/blood feud to get their own back. If we go back to Hammurabi, it's why the "eye for an eye" stuff was included and by the standards of the time was actually a step forward from previous modes of retributive clan violence. EDIT: to be clear I'm not in any way advocating that the system has to actually brutalize the convicted to satiate the bloodlust of victims or the public, but it does have to do something to satisfy them that the wrong has been righted, with some term of confinement for the convicted usually being sufficient these days. Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 20:50
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I would suggest that if you want a systemic solution to the problem of the need for retribution you might start by getting rid of the societal justification for that desire rather than finding ways to fill it.
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Feb 17, 2017 21:24
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OwlFancier posted:I would suggest that if you want a systemic solution to the problem of the need for retribution you might start by getting rid of the societal justification for that desire rather than finding ways to fill it. How though? In a perfect world that would be the case but for certain actions retribution is needed.
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Feb 17, 2017 21:26
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Hunt11 posted:How though? In a perfect world that would be the case but for certain actions retribution is needed. I guess I would ask if you're making a positive assertion could you explain why? Retribution is certainly enjoyable but I can't think of anything you could do to me that I really think would be made better by punishing you for it.
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Feb 17, 2017 21:31
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DeusExMachinima posted:The actual answer here is that their welfare systems tend to have fewer traps and their prison system and recidivism rates are waaaay better. Being monocultural probably causes fewer people problems because humans are all about the in-group but the melting pot has been consistently worth the pain IMHO. Also because monocultural poo poo tends to infringe on individual freedom of movement, belief, etc. Would you like to delineate our traps? Would you say this is a bigger priority than the prison traps?
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Feb 17, 2017 21:38
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OwlFancier posted:I guess I would ask if you're making a positive assertion could you explain why? I'm with with Captain Maclaine: the perception that justice is and shall be regularly done prevents the Hatfields and McCoys of the world from taking things into their own hands. Doc Hawkins fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 21:43
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Doc Hawkins posted:Captain Maclaine's mentioned blood feuds: the perception that justice is and shall be regularly done prevents the Hatfields and McCoys of the world from taking things into their own hands. I would suggest that that is a function of a society that supports retribution but does not provide it. And that removing the support would be a better solution than finding ways to provide it.
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Feb 17, 2017 21:45
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OwlFancier posted:I would suggest that that is a function of a society that supports retribution but does not provide it. And that removing the support would be a better solution than finding ways to provide it. Yeah, I was going to edit to add that this means justice systems have to be around as bloody as their citizenry is bloody-minded, but that there's lee-way. I think it's hard to make a justice system less retributive, but it's easier than just changing societal norms. In fact, you might be able to slowly change societal norms using justice system reforms.
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Feb 17, 2017 21:48
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OwlFancier posted:I guess I would ask if you're making a positive assertion could you explain why? That is kind of the problem though. I don't think it is a positive idea at all and it speaks of a rather dark part of humanity. On the other hand there has to be some mechanism in place to handle those who break the law. For certain crimes the focus should be on rehabilitation more then some draconian punishment but still some punishment needs to be given. As an example if somebody steals because that is the only way they can support themselves then they should be detained for a couple years but in a facility that the focus is on teaching them the skills needed to be able to get a job and providing them the type of support that if life is still difficult to them that they have a place where they can seek help. Out of curiosity, how would you handle war crimes or crimes against humanity?
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Feb 17, 2017 21:48
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OwlFancier posted:I guess I would ask if you're making a positive assertion could you explain why? You see, a man with a long white beard sits on a cloud all day and keeps a tally of who wronged whom and by how many Utils, and if a person does more wronging than wrongs done to him, then there is a COSMIC IMBALANCE
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Feb 17, 2017 21:51
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OwlFancier posted:I would suggest that that is a function of a society that supports retribution but does not provide it. And that removing the support would be a better solution than finding ways to provide it. Look, I hate it when lazy thinkers play the "human nature" card as much as the next guy, but I seriously can't think of a way to do this without like Alpha-Complex level distribution of happy drugs.
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Feb 17, 2017 21:52
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Hunt11 posted:That is kind of the problem though. I don't think it is a positive idea at all and it speaks of a rather dark part of humanity. On the other hand there has to be some mechanism in place to handle those who break the law. For certain crimes the focus should be on rehabilitation more then some draconian punishment but still some punishment needs to be given. As an example if somebody steals because that is the only way they can support themselves then they should be detained for a couple years but in a facility that the focus is on teaching them the skills needed to be able to get a job and providing them the type of support that if life is still difficult to them that they have a place where they can seek help. Arrest the people involved so they can't do it again? There isn't anything else you can do. You can do stuff like reparations from the states involved to the people affected but on a personal level there is literally nothing you can do to Hitler to make the holocaust un-happen. I guess my impulse when wronged is almost always "I don't want you to be sorry, I just want you to stop doing it." And I don't super see why this isn't a thing that can be taught. Yes we live in a society that says much the opposite but we live in a society that produces libertarians so maybe our society is not an ideal one. Maybe one day we will run up against the upper limit of internalized utilitarian justice but I think we have a long way to go before that happens. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 21:55
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Look, I hate it when lazy thinkers play the "human nature" card as much as the next guy, but I seriously can't think of a way to do this without like Alpha-Complex level distribution of happy drugs. Norms can change, and even be changed. (I would have gone with Brave New World over Paranoia.)
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Feb 17, 2017 22:27
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Stinky_Pete posted:Would you like to delineate our traps? Would you say this is a bigger priority than the prison traps? War on Drugs came after Great Society heavily indulged the modern micromanagerial impulse instead of adopting something like negative taxes, so that may or may not be a causal relationship. And being trapped in poverty certainly makes it harder to fight off people abusing their power. I can't conclusively say though because there are also cases where the two systems pretty much merge such as in the school-to-prison pipeline. Really I'd just go after drug/police reform or welfare reform/basic income depending on which one is more achievable first. It's hard to say that one for sure is much more harmful than the other on its own.
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Feb 17, 2017 22:42
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Doc Hawkins posted:I'm with with Captain Maclaine: the perception that justice is and shall be regularly done prevents the Hatfields and McCoys of the world from taking things into their own hands. Hence why a certain amount of threat of punishment in the system is fine. Rules such as "hey folks if you brutally murder somebody you go away for a decade or two. Don't do that poo poo" are fine. Same with assault, rape, fraud, etc. Those are crimes that should have punishment as a deterrent and like was said some people are just too crazy/evil to leave out in normal society. They are a tiny percentage of the population and in America a large majority of criminals are in for non-violent crimes; drug charges, typically. Throwing somebody in the same jail for a drug charge as you do for a murder charge and just changing the time is absurd. Same with thieves. People don't generally become drug smugglers or full time thieves because they want to. It's often just plain desperation. In other cases it's all they know; stealing is the only skill they have. Aside from that if somebody goes to jail for stealing but has no other way to make money once they get back out take a wild guess what's going to happen when they're released. It would be far more beneficial to give them skills in prison and set them up with a job when they're out. Sure, slap some probation on in case they're the type that is just a greedy, selfish prick but locking them up in a dungeon full of violence and misery then giving them no help once they get out is not going to rehabilitate a criminal. Desperate people do desperate things. Take away the desperation and you reduce that. Sure some people are just jerks and will do terrible things anyway but I'm not really talking about those people. Rather the petty criminals that make up the bulk of people in jail. I'm by no means saying we should try to rehabilitate somebody like Charles Manson.
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Feb 18, 2017 00:25
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah people always forget when they see these happy resort scandinavian prisons that that is just one type of prison for one stream of prisoners who have been deemed suitable for those programs, they still have places to lock away the irredeemably evil and untreatable mentally ill. They just actually have the sense to separate these streams. even the "irredeemably evil" people go to prisons that are far nicer than american ones, with an aim for rehabilitation and possible return to society, however far fetched, instead of punishment
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Feb 18, 2017 04:08
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I'm by no means saying we should try to rehabilitate somebody like Charles Manson. i am, and failing that we should at least learn from him about other people like him
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Feb 18, 2017 04:09
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