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TheKingofSprings posted:Except Goku got better in a way that would outpace any gun maybe the superior race is actually gun
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Sep 7, 2017 18:48
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Universe 1 has a fighter who's just a gun
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Sep 7, 2017 18:51
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Super Saiyajin Gun Mode
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Sep 7, 2017 18:52
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TheKingofSprings posted:Except Goku got better in a way that would outpace any gun Maybe he didn't. We just had an episode where the super powers on display were "moving faster than sight" and "anticipating what the guy is going to do" which were basic abilities during DB. Roshi is relevant for the first time in decades. Seems obvious that everyone got sidetracked with these flashy gimmicks when in reality everyone got much, much weaker than they were at their physical peak (age 18-27).
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Sep 7, 2017 18:53
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Raserys posted:Universe 1 has a fighter who's just a gun one of the robot universe guys is megatron and turns into a gun that someone else shoots goku with
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Sep 7, 2017 18:58
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Alternately the power level gap is never as significant and all-consuming as people made it out to be. People early on were capable of destroying entire cities or the frigging moon with a single energy blast. Higher power levels are obviously significant but the actual meaningful difference between them is not as significant as intelligent use of abilities and skills once you reach a certain point. The more powerful fighter will win a straight beam fight but could still get killed by trickery or smart usage of abilities. People treated being stronger as effectively becoming Superman but it was never that. All three of the major arc villains in DBZ were immensely durable outside of their power levels. (i.e: even Frieza could survive being cut in half and left on an exploding planet) not BECAUSE of them.
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Sep 7, 2017 19:02
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maybe guns "hurt" Goku in the same way a fly bothers a regular person? it's like "ow, that was annoying for a second" at least, that's how I interpreted it. the old theory is also good, skin is weaker? who knows, it's just punchmans
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Sep 7, 2017 19:06
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Goku is older and has to keep up his training in order to stay fit, and when he got shot recently it was during a time he wasn't training much.
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Sep 7, 2017 19:09
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ImpAtom posted:Alternately the power level gap is never as significant and all-consuming as people made it out to be. I mean it was legitimately a big deal in dbz and pretty much how all fights were determined. didn't matter how good of a fighter goku was against freeza; he still needed that multiplier to compete. krillin couldn't even get cell's attention, let alone hurt him, when he wasn't paying attention (destructo disc is filler but krillin attacking cell to no effect isn't). db was before power levels so it was just a matter of being the best fighter and super tries to do that as well. like the krillin/goku beam struggle would have ended in krillin getting instantly vaporized in z but super is drawing that stuff back so other people can be relevant again doesn't change that it's how z worked tho
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Sep 7, 2017 19:13
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It's always bugged me that Super Saiyan 3 parodies Super Saiyan escalation even though it wasn't that silly until Super Saiyan 3. Super Saiyan 2 wasn't even really a thing, it was just Gohan's unlocked potential. I mean, his other unlocked potential, but still.
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Sep 7, 2017 19:18
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Manatee Cannon posted:I mean it was legitimately a big deal in dbz and pretty much how all fights were determined. didn't matter how good of a fighter goku was against freeza; he still needed that multiplier to compete. krillin couldn't even get cell's attention, let alone hurt him, when he wasn't paying attention (destructo disc is filler but krillin attacking cell to no effect isn't). db was before power levels so it was just a matter of being the best fighter and super tries to do that as well. like the krillin/goku beam struggle would have ended in krillin getting instantly vaporized in z but super is drawing that stuff back so other people can be relevant again It isn't true though. Frieza is the closest to true in that his huge power level gap was a significant issue but Goku had more luck with tricky moves than anything involving pure power short of the Spirit Bomb (whcih still failed.) Cell was determined entirely by his regeneration, not his power level. Both Goku and Vegeta can and would have killed Perfect Cell if he couldn't come back from basically anything. Same for Majin Buu who was only a threat because he come come back from being literally obliterated, otherwise Vegeta's sacrifice would have ended the plot.
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Sep 7, 2017 19:20
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One thing Dragon Ball Super has been doing an excellent job is dispelling the myth that Goku could have ever beaten Superman in a fight Fucker can't even fight at light speed apparently, the Flash would laugh at him before going to punch Grandpa Gohan in the dick for no reason
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Sep 7, 2017 19:24
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The whole power level thing comes up all the time because it's portrayed really inconsistently. Every time someone gets a new power up everyone is in awe and sometimes literally blown away by how powerful they are. Villains get new transformations and then proceed to show off how they're so cool that they can literally just take punches full to the face without flinching like Cell. Then another time they show a character defeating a much stronger opponent through trickery and technique over raw strength. Like, being a super cool martial artists is rad and all but what are you going to do to someone who can flick a finger and level multiple city blocks and can no-sell anything you throw at them. Unless the plot says you should. I think the lesson to take away is that it's anime, don't worry about it too much.
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Sep 7, 2017 19:28
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it absolutely is. people like krillin or tien literally could not even hurt cell at all; in super they probably could goku and vegeta couldn't have killed cell the way gohan did because he'd just regenerate. it's not like gohan did anything different from cell detonating himself; he was just stronger so it actually counted that time. even after goku blew cell's top half clean off, he still was left weaker than cell afterwards and decided he couldn't win. like you can argue that point if you want but that's silly because the character says otherwise himself. it was the same for buu. goku claims he could have killed fat or kid buu in ss3 if he didn't lose power. the spirit bomb disintegrating buu isn't any different from vegeta doing the same thing. the only difference is that it's stronger and thus actually worked
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Sep 7, 2017 19:32
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Burkion posted:One thing Dragon Ball Super has been doing an excellent job is dispelling the myth that Goku could have ever beaten Superman in a fight I know and I hate it. 
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Sep 7, 2017 20:06
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Krillin is bulletproof, too. Launch used to blast everybody with machine guns on the regular for reasons like: Breakfast is ready It's time to wake up Roshi made a remark Because it's fun
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Sep 7, 2017 20:14
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deadly_pudding posted:Krillin is bulletproof, too. Launch used to blast everybody with machine guns on the regular for reasons like: Actually, it was only 1 reason: she sneezed.
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Sep 7, 2017 20:30
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power levels only matter whenever Toriyama/Toei feel like it in Super Krillin and Roshi can compete with the big boys through trickery and technique, but then on the other hand nobody can even touch Beerus because he's just so goddamn strong and fast
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Sep 7, 2017 20:43
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The Android Saga is a masterclass in narrative escalation but it does cause problems down the line.
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Sep 7, 2017 20:45
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And like most of the good bits of Dragonball it's the result of Toriyama furiously drawing while his editor leans over his shoulder asking "Is that it?" over and over.
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Sep 7, 2017 20:51
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Goku is like 45-50 at this point cut the guy some slack for getting cut by a gun
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Sep 7, 2017 21:05
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Goku is a grandpa.
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Sep 7, 2017 21:15
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to be fair both he and his son had kids pretty young
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Sep 7, 2017 21:18
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To be fair he's a horrible monster who deserves a painful, humiliating death.
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Sep 7, 2017 21:34
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sassassin posted:To be fair he's a horrible monster who deserves a painful, humiliating death. ...yeah, gently caress Goku!
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Sep 7, 2017 21:35
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Goku is going to die in the Tournament of Power and instead of wishing the other universes back Jiren is going to wish for his revival so they can fight again some day.
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Sep 7, 2017 21:42
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sassassin posted:To be fair he's a horrible monster who deserves a painful, humiliating death. He's died twice and that didn't stop him. He needs something bigger and more permanent than death to be finally stopped.
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Sep 7, 2017 21:43
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Kashuno posted:Goku is like 45-50 at this point cut the guy some slack for getting cut by a gun Vegeta mentioned somewhere that Saiyans don't start to show their age until around their 70s, though.
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Sep 7, 2017 21:44
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sassassin posted:The Android Saga is a masterclass in narrative escalation but it does cause problems down the line. The problems started right at the beginning of Z when Raditz (and by extensions the saibamen) trivially surpassed the reincarnation of the Great Demon King and the spiritually awakened Goku, who were then also trivially surpassed in turn by a chain of like five different tiers of villains before it loops back round to some robots made in the lab of some guys Goku fought when he was 10. Looping back round from Frieza to some Red Ribbon androids who are literally about five million times stronger than the ones Goku previously fought is just the most glaring example.
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Sep 7, 2017 21:47
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Appule would have kicked rear end and taken names in Dragon Ball.
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Sep 7, 2017 21:52
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gently caress Uub, should have wished Dr. Gero back as a good guy. Imagine how strong his androids would be at this point.
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Sep 7, 2017 21:57
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I am making a very real guess the next arc skips a few years and focuses on Uub
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Sep 7, 2017 22:02
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Kashuno posted:I am making a very real guess the next arc skips a few years and focuses on Uub I think that's a reasonable assumption, anything else would just be spinning their wheels. Make GT great for once.
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Sep 7, 2017 22:13
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Burkion posted:One thing Dragon Ball Super has been doing an excellent job is dispelling the myth that Goku could have ever beaten Superman in a fight ? he's faster than light. He fought Hit who can stop time.
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Sep 7, 2017 22:13
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Kashuno posted:I am making a very real guess the next arc skips a few years and focuses on Uub I think you mean focuses on Pan and her rival Uub.
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Sep 7, 2017 22:26
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Manatee Cannon posted:it absolutely is. people like krillin or tien literally could not even hurt cell at all; in super they probably could The Cell thing did not work cause up until Gohan tried they never destroyed his core. (Cell himself admitted he got lucky surviving his self destruct as his Core barely survived.) Goku was just wrong about beating Buu as he underestimated his durability. And as we mentioned it had less to do with power level and more to do with Cell and Buu having regeneration. If they did not have that they would have died at multiple points. Overcoming the regeneration was more important then overcoming them in power. I reminded of the time when Gotents and Piccolo blew Buu into tiny bits. Then to prevent his regeneration they started blasting the pieces, but he regenerated from the vapors.
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Sep 7, 2017 22:33
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MonsterEnvy posted:The Cell thing did not work cause up until Gohan tried they never destroyed his core. (Cell himself admitted he got lucky surviving his self destruct as his Core barely survived.) They overcame regeneration in each case with completely overwhelming high power attacks though, not clever trickery
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Sep 7, 2017 22:44
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Here's the difference Freeza is the only time in DBZ where power level really, REALLY mattered. Freeza and Kid Buu both get hit head on by the Spirit Bomb- one of them shrugged it off because he wasn't even at HALF strength yet, the other one was killed because he wasn't THAT much stronger than the strongest hero, he was just ridiculously hard to kill
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Sep 7, 2017 22:51
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multijoe posted:They overcame regeneration in each case with completely overwhelming high power attacks though, not clever trickery Burkion posted:Here's the difference This is pretty much my point. The Regen not their strength was the main reason they had to be overpowered. Vegeta, Goku were weaker then Cell and pretty much everyone that fought Buu was weaker then him, but all of them would have killed those two had it not been for their Regeneration despite being weaker.
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Sep 7, 2017 22:54
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multijoe posted:They overcame regeneration in each case with completely overwhelming high power attacks though, not clever trickery The thing is that the Spirit Bomb isn't about power level though. It in fact explicitly isn't about power level but rather gathering power from many different sources instead. It's a move specifically designed to emphasize the idea of overcoming a single stronger foe with a technique. It is why (even though it fails 2 out of 3 times) each time it is used it is with the help of other people.
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Sep 7, 2017 22:56
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