Libertarians: You fire fighter lovers sure are good at debate!

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Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Curvature of Earth posted:

Good long post by a former libertarian about how libertarians have problems maintaining happy marriages.

JFC that is horrifying stuff. I thought my circle was dysfunctional :psyduck:

# ? Sep 30, 2017 11:02

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 01:56

Doc Hawkins: Jun 15, 2010; Dashing? But I'm not even moving!

Pembroke Fuse posted:

So, when I was an Objectivist, one of the early bits of disturbing poo poo I found out was that many of the highest-ranked Rand acolytes (specifically Leonard Piekoff, the inheritor of Rand's estate, but others as well), would routinely trade in their wives for newer models. I'm pretty sure he's on his third or fourth marriage to some young, blonde idiot (he's pushing 90).

Basically, for many Objectivists, if a woman isn't a perfect representation of Dagney Taggart or Dominique Francon, she may as well be trash.

Those characters weren't idiots, though. That was part of the fantasy for Rand, but apparently not for her male readership.

(I read The Fountainhead after a woman on OkCupid recommended it as a hate-read, and everyone's heard a summary of Atlas Shrugged by now, right?)

# ? Sep 30, 2017 14:30

Pembroke Fuse: Dec 29, 2008

Doc Hawkins posted:

Those characters weren't idiots, though. That was part of the fantasy for Rand, but apparently not for her male readership.

(I read The Fountainhead after a woman on OkCupid recommended it as a hate-read, and everyone's heard a summary of Atlas Shrugged by now, right?)

They weren't exactly idiots, no... but they were basically there as subservient objects of male conquest. Most Objectivists miss the fact that those women, in real life, wouldn't go anywhere near them. And in fact they don't, so most Objectivist men look for good-looking, pliant, blonde doormats instead.

# ? Sep 30, 2017 14:53

Mr Interweb: Aug 25, 2004

Curvature of Earth posted:

Good long post by a former libertarian about how libertarians have problems maintaining happy marriages.

quote:

Or hell. Here�s my best example of self-defeating libertarianism:

There�s a guy in the local hacker scene whose handle is John Galt. His real name is Eric something but he wants to be known as John Galt, that�s how libertarian this guy is.

Anyway. Galt is in his late thirties to early forties at this point, is autistic, is homeless, and refuses to accept help. He�ll take little favors - my husband and went to the shelter he was staying in to bring him an old laptop and some leftovers last Thanksgiving, we drove him to the hospital once. I�ve put together care packages of clothes and toiletries and stuff. But offer him a place to stay and he�s mortally offended. Tell him you�ll pull a favor to get him a job and he�s having none of it. He�s got to do it on his own and accepting charity is shameful. He�ll stay in shelters when it�s very cold or if he hasn�t eaten in days but otherwise he�ll sleep in a car (if he has one at the time) or on the street (which is why we had to take him to the hospital).

Not gonna lie, although this guy's kind of a moron, I have infinitely more respect for him than pretty much any libertarian/Republican I've seen in either media or politics. As if any of them would have the stones to live by how they breach. Oh no. See, they'll gladly take all the services and funds provided by the big bad government just fine, than you very much. But they wouldn't be so shameful as to acknowledge that they actually received said help to begin with. Then they use the help they received as proof that they were self-reliant all along, and even moreso after the experience. :smug:

# ? Oct 1, 2017 02:43

Pembroke Fuse: Dec 29, 2008

Mr Interweb posted:

Not gonna lie, although this guy's kind of a moron, I have infinitely more respect for him than pretty much any libertarian/Republican I've seen in either media or politics. As if any of them would have the stones to live by how they breach. Oh no. See, they'll gladly take all the services and funds provided by the big bad government just fine, than you very much. But they wouldn't be so shameful as to acknowledge that they actually received said help to begin with. Then they use the help they received as proof that they were self-reliant all along, and even moreso after the experience.

The typical excuse actual Objectivists use regarding accepting social assistance: the government already coerces us to pay our money into the social welfare system, might as well use those services. i.e. if the government wasn't forcing us to pay our taxes, there would be no need for us to rely on social support, because we'd just have all of our tax money back.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 03:55

Mr Interweb: Aug 25, 2004

Is the casting couch a fair trade?

# ? Oct 15, 2017 21:50

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

Well that's loving gross. Let's see what else author Eric Raymond has been writing on there!

Let's look at general stupidity:

NRA Loses the Plot posted:

Dear NRA leadership: are you out of your loving minds?

Supporting a ban on bump stocks in the wake of the Las Vegas massacre is a terrible idea, for all the usual reasons that there has never been any case in the history of the known universe in which supporting a ban on firearms or their gear was a good idea. You used to know this.

Please give generously to James Damore's fundraiser posted:

I just gave $100 to James Damore�s official fundraiser.

Damore, for any of you who have been hiding under a rock, is the guy who wrote a completely sane and reasonable memorandum, objecting on principled and scientific grounds to the assumptions behind �diversity�.

Unlearning History posted:

In some circles there�s lately a vogue for vandalizing or pulling down Confederate statues. The people doing it think (or say they think) that they�re striking a blow against racism. I think they�re, at best, engaged in a dangerous reopening of old wounds. At worst they�re threatening to inflict serious new ones.

I�m a Yankee from Boston by birth and inclination. I�ve never bought into Lost Cause romanticism; I�ve studied the history and don�t buy the revisionism about tariffs or troop callups. The South revolted to defend the indefensible of chattel slavery, and deserved its defeat.

But

And at some clues toward his specific brand of stupidity:

The Brain is a Peirce Engine posted:

There comes from Scott Alexander�s blog news of a new unified theory of neural cognition called the �predictive processing model�. Read his review of the book �Surfing Uncertainty� before proceeding further.

Three easy pieces posted:

I�m back from vacation � World Boardgaming Championships, where this year I earned laurels in Ticket To Ride and Terra Mystica..

Managing modafinil posted:

For the last year or so I have been deliberately experimenting with a psychoactive, nootropic drug.

fake edit: a quick google search indicates that this "Eric Raymond" is not some random rear end in a top hat, but a very specific and prolific rear end in a top hat I was not previously aware of. Wonderful.

# ? Oct 15, 2017 22:39

divabot: Jun 17, 2015; A polite little mouse!

Goon Danton posted:

fake edit: a quick google search indicates that this "Eric Raymond" is not some random rear end in a top hat, but a very specific and prolific rear end in a top hat I was not previously aware of. Wonderful.

good Lord have you missed out. For some sense of "missed out."

# ? Oct 16, 2017 00:05

theshim: May 1, 2012; You think you can defeat ME, Ephraimcopter?!?

You couldn't even beat Assassincopter!!!

The fact that he plays Terra Mystica is enough to firmly place him in the shitheel category :argh:

# ? Oct 16, 2017 01:11

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

Mr Interweb posted:

Is the casting couch a fair trade?

I miss jrod, I want six paragraphs of dense prose defending this plus some meandering musings of how his abs and blonde Prince William looks would get him every part in every movie but he's too proud to sleep his way into the roles unlike members of some genders out there.

# ? Oct 16, 2017 05:41

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Mr Interweb posted:

Not gonna lie, although this guy's kind of a moron, I have infinitely more respect for him than pretty much any libertarian/Republican I've seen in either media or politics. As if any of them would have the stones to live by how they breach. Oh no. See, they'll gladly take all the services and funds provided by the big bad government just fine, than you very much. But they wouldn't be so shameful as to acknowledge that they actually received said help to begin with. Then they use the help they received as proof that they were self-reliant all along, and even moreso after the experience.

I want Atlas Shrugged re-written to be about a 40 year old Autistic guy who shrugs off any attempt by outside forces to get him help.

"Bob, we've found you a place to stay if you'll take it...." Bob Shrugged.

# ? Oct 16, 2017 13:06

Golbez: Oct 9, 2002; 1 2 3!
If you want to take a shot at me get in line, line
1 2 3!
Baby, I've had all my shots and I'm fine

Yeah, ESR is a pretty big name in old-school tech circles, due to his creation of The Jargon File and his essay/book The Cathedral and the Bazaar.

# ? Oct 16, 2017 16:14

Bunni-kat: May 25, 2010; Service Desk B-b-bunny...
How can-ca-caaaaan I
help-p-p-p you?

CommieGIR posted:

I want Atlas Shrugged re-written to be about a 40 year old Autistic guy who shrugs off any attempt by outside forces to get him help.

"Bob, we've found you a place to stay if you'll take it...." Bob Shrugged.

You mean Bartleby the Scrivener?

# ? Oct 16, 2017 16:44

Stinky_Pete: Aug 16, 2015; Stinkier than your average bear; Lipstick Apathy

GunnerJ posted:

Not exactly related to the prior discussion but lol nonetheless:

https://twitter.com/curaffairs/status/905191236046381056

(it's one of them threads so there's more after that)

So... were they going for the language of a pre-WWII America? Like as a character? Or did Fortune really sign off on the (qualified, we swear) triumph of the Roman will?

# ? Oct 18, 2017 04:32

Stinky_Pete: Aug 16, 2015; Stinkier than your average bear; Lipstick Apathy

Caros posted:

The problem with libertarian fascism is that it doesn't allow for truly free markets (not that there is such a thing) which is the hallmark for libertarianism.

Oh that's easy, they just get distracted with all their gun rights and let the formerly crypto cryptofascists hold the wheel

CommieGIR posted:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...m=.074aba2f71f3

Now is the libertarian socialist caucus's time to shine

FOR ROJAVAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
:shibaz:

# ? Oct 18, 2017 04:34

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

theshim posted:

The fact that he plays Terra Mystica is enough to firmly place him in the shitheel category

what on earth

# ? Oct 18, 2017 16:12

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

Stinky_Pete posted:

So... were they going for the language of a pre-WWII America? Like as a character? Or did Fortune really sign off on the (qualified, we swear) triumph of the Roman will?

It looks like that's the actual July 1934 issue of Fortune.

# ? Oct 18, 2017 16:14

Stinky_Pete: Aug 16, 2015; Stinkier than your average bear; Lipstick Apathy

Goon Danton posted:

It looks like that's the actual July 1934 issue of Fortune.

Oh, that explains a lot

# ? Oct 18, 2017 20:56

BobHoward: Feb 13, 2012; The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull

Golbez posted:

Yeah, ESR is a pretty big name in old-school tech circles, due to his creation of The Jargon File and his essay/book The Cathedral and the Bazaar.

ESR did not create the Jargon File. He self-appointed himself as the new 'maintainer' and immediately hosed with it in ways the original community which created it hated.

ESR also has a history of trying to self-appoint as the new maintainer of open source software projects that he thinks need his help, but has never managed to do much with them, because (as far as I can tell) he is not actually a good engineer. A great and hilarious example of this was the time when he attempted to rewrite the Linux kernel configuration system, got pushback on his work, tried to make some really clumsy political moves to get it adopted anyways, and was basically laughed/flamed out of the place.

# ? Oct 19, 2017 09:18

Polygynous: Dec 13, 2006; welp

lol, yeah I know his name but I couldn't remember anything he's you know, actually done other than be some fringe weirdo that wrote a book once I guess.

Goon Danton posted:

It looks like that's the actual July 1934 issue of Fortune.

My first thought (maybe because someone mentioned it in the tweet's replies when I first saw it) was that it's not nearly as :wtf:

as Reason mag's just-asking-questions-about-the-Holocaust issue in 1976. Which I'm pretty sure has come up in these threads before too.

# ? Oct 19, 2017 14:18

Ocean Book: Sep 27, 2010; - hi

Curvature of Earth posted:

Good long post by a former libertarian about how libertarians have problems maintaining happy marriages.

I'm getting a dead link, can this still be found?

# ? Oct 19, 2017 23:03

sweart gliwere: Jul 5, 2005; _{better to die an evil wizard,

than to live as a grand one.}; Pillbug

Ocean Book posted:

I'm getting a dead link, can this still be found?

When archive.org fails, google cached page saves the day:

https://webcache.googleusercontent....n&ct=clnk&gl=us

# ? Oct 19, 2017 23:18

Babylon Astronaut: Apr 19, 2012

Polygynous posted:

lol, yeah I know his name but I couldn't remember anything he's you know, actually done other than be some fringe weirdo that wrote a book once I guess.

My first thought (maybe because someone mentioned it in the tweet's replies when I first saw it) was that it's not nearly as as Reason mag's just-asking-questions-about-the-Holocaust issue in 1976. Which I'm pretty sure has come up in these threads before too.

I really like reason's response: Did reason really public a holocaust denial issue?
They deny that revisionism is holocaust denial, which in itself should be holocaust denial. Revisionism is the theory the holocaust was vastly over reported by the Soviet Union and the US joined the war, because they wanted to kill off pure blood Germans by the million. It is a philosophy of, by, and for, libertarians to get them to experiment with Nazism.

# ? Oct 20, 2017 06:17

Mundrial Mantis: Aug 15, 2017

Babylon Astronaut posted:

I really like reason's response: Did reason really public a holocaust denial issue?
They deny that revisionism is holocaust denial, which in itself should be holocaust denial. Revisionism is the theory the holocaust was vastly over reported by the Soviet Union and the US joined the war, because they wanted to kill off pure blood Germans by the million. It is a philosophy of, by, and for, libertarians to get them to experiment with Nazism.

Re-reading the Pando article and then reading Reason's response, Gillespie barely acknowledges the content of the Holocaust denial issue and tries to get the reader to view Ames as tilting at windmills. That and the whole "see how much we libertarians are the only ones caring about these issues, ignore the other voices". There is still that "generally adolescent glee in being iconoclastic" present among right-libertarians in the 1976 issue and today.

# ? Oct 20, 2017 21:49

Ocean Book: Sep 27, 2010; - hi

sweart gliwere posted:

When archive.org fails, google cached page saves the day:

https://webcache.googleusercontent....n&ct=clnk&gl=us

i dont know if im just really dumb but im getting a 404

# ? Oct 20, 2017 22:39

sweart gliwere: Jul 5, 2005; _{better to die an evil wizard,

than to live as a grand one.}; Pillbug

Ocean Book posted:

i dont know if im just really dumb but im getting a 404

Huh, worked for me last night on desktop, and works for me now on mobile. APOLOGIES THREAD FOR TEXT BOMB:

ms demeanor posted:

I want you to know that this post provoked me into a search that led me to an ancap reddit and I need to go find a mosh pit right now so I can participate in some socially sanctioned punching that doesn’t violate the NAP.

But I think you’ve hit on something here that’s a major source of conflict I’ve seen in a lot of my libertarian friends and their relationships. Like pretty much every couples therapist out there will tell you that bean counting, the act of pinning down every single cent or action each person contributes to a household or income, is a *loving GREAT* way to completely gently caress over your relationship and make the whole thing feel transactional and gross. I’ve found that couples who have individual bank accounts in addition to a joint account for shared expenses can sustain this sort of behavior, to an extent, but when you’ve got a married couple where the wife is a stay-at-home mom involved in the day-to-day drudgery of maintaining the household AND fighting with school districts for access for a neurodivergent child and the husband is a high-income technolibertarian rationalist and BOTH of them have significant inherited property they brought into the marriage you get to watch the slow dissolution of joy. Whose property is the house? Does the wife earn enough of her keep to consider it her house when the husband is the one making payments? Is the care of their home and child enough to pay him back for his labor? What if the down payment for the house came from the wife’s inheritance but the remainder of that money is being used to care for her aging mother? The husband is furious about the high grocery bills but hasn’t been in a grocery store in five years and doesn’t know what the prices are. The wife teaches gym classes as a hobby and uses the money to make up the gap in the grocery bill - she pays more toward the food budget than her husband does. Because he doesn’t provide enough money for the food does he deserve to enjoy an equal share of her cost in money and labor in preparing the meals? He might be paying the mortgage but it was her wealth that allowed them to purchase the house. Are they equal contributors? Does she own the house? Does he own the groceries? For many years he didn’t need to pay the mortgage because they lived in her family home - how much rent does he owe her from that period? Does her labor in caring for her elderly mother negate any back rent the couple may have owed?

Like, yes, Ayn Rand’s general grossness is what pushed me out of libertarianism but watching this couple hate each other more over every loving dollar they can’t agree how to split is what reaaaaalllly put the nail in the coffin for me - Also this guy’s parents stopped buying him shoes when he was 10, if he outgrew his shoes after that he had to get a job and pay for them himself. Everyone I’m talking about here is rich, his parents own a loving bank and wouldn’t buy their ten-year-old shoes because that would teach him the value of a dollar. Whaaaaaaat the gently caress? What the gently caress?

But anyway.

ANYWAY.

If you’re going to go full libertarian on in you’ve gotta ask if everyone is being paid for all of the labor they put into the relationship; is everyone doing chores equally, is everyone contributing an equal load to the household - if you aren’t then you owe your partner more labor (perhaps in the form of blowjobs? Or comfort? IDK) or their continued participation in the house is a gift from you to them that they’ll never be able to ignore or forget (at least if both people share the same politics).

C’mon, Dagny Taggart wasn’t above presenting an invoice for her household labor - you shouldn’t be either. And I think in Atlas Shrugged they actually make mention of the fact that there are “obvious advantages” between husband and wife that make this question a non-issue, but it’s only a non-issue so long as you never have to divide property. Which they then go on to not address when Hank makes a point that his only request from his divorce lawyer is that his wife will have none of his property after they split (even though she has been shown organizing parties and preparing meals and hosting his colleagues, so in spite of the fact that she’s been working to destroy him she is owed for her labor; the sex too if you want to get into that because obviously that was something she did for him, not because she wanted to have sex).

Anyway.

Also, an interesting point that was made by someone in the awful deep dive I went on: Some libertarians consider children to be property. Children are a product of the wife’s labor, therefore if they are the property of the adults they should be the property of their mothers specifically because the father’s labor is trivial in comparison and can be easily paid back or considered perhaps one share of the 100 shares of the child instead of 50/50 or paternal whole ownership. (And if you’ve done the labor to extract the sperm, say in the form of a blowjob, is it then your right to sell it? It’s a product of your own labor, after all)

ANYWAY

Um. Most libertarians I know are pretty loving traditional and don’t really seem to give much of a poo poo about women having the right to own things because they expect that their wives will become stay-at-home moms with shopping allowances and stay with their husbands forever.

But a lot of the libertarian attitudes are hosed up anyway so I’m pretty sure “If I give you a blowjob your ejaculate is a product of my labor and I have a right to sell it” actually holds up (nature modified by the work of your hands, after all, and part of a consensual transaction of contact that isn’t in violation of the NAP) and would also strike fear into the hearts of many a libertarian.

A loving lot.

My dad was a libertarian for most of my childhood but converted to republicanism after 9/11 (???? gross - It’s worse this way), I grew up as the kind of obnoxious wank who used to say Atlas Shrugged was my favorite book when going around the room introducing myself in college, which is how I met the two lit major libertarians I started a magazine with, a dude who was a regular at the coffee shop I worked at for years saw me with a copy of The Fountainhead once and that’s when he decided he had found an audience to talk about how much of a loving stiffy he had for the John Birch Society, I applied for ARI scholarships multiple times and corresponded with people from the ARI, one of my best friends and I used to fantasize about building a libertarian resort on an archipelago that would support the economy of our main fantasy libertarian island - that friend is the son of a literal baron??? (HOW? hereditary nobility breaks my brain) and married a woman who I’m now better friends with than the initial friend, and she was raised as a survivalist prepper flavor of libertarian (we both got better); I know those last two folks through the hacker community where, it turns out, there are AN AWFUL loving LOT of libertarians and I can think of at least ten people offhand who fit into both the “is a hardcore libertarian” and the “I have spent time at this person’s home or in their wedding or have bought them a present” categories. More fall into the “have been to multiple parties with/have regular meetups with/see at least four times a year” categories. I’ve had five roommates I lived with for a year or longer who are libertarians.

So a lot. I know a lot of libertarians. Part of this is that I was raised in a libertarian family, part of this is that the hacker scene in California is heavily libertarian, but either way I know a giant pile of real-life libertarians, not people I’ve argued with on the internet, but people whose children I have babysat or whose food I have prepared.

I not only know four people planning to move to New Hampshire as part of the free state project, I once considered it myself. I voted for the libertarian presidential candidate in 2004, 2008, and 2012 (gay marriage and abortions were my main motivations). I was a registered libertarian in the 2016 elections - which pissed me off because the California primary is after the Libertarian party selects its nominee so I didn’t get a vote in my primary (they were all awful, so that’s okay). The party has become regressive and authoritarian and that’s a huge part of why I’ve stepped away. Also the tough-on-crime/private-prison-positive stance supports legal slavery and denies people self ownership and is against libertarian principles so *gently caress* that bullshit. Thanks for reminding me, I’ve got to register independent.

(Also republicans are authoritarian as fuuuuuuuck but a lot of the problems we’re currently having with needing a majority of 51 instead of a majority of 60 in senate votes is the result of Obama era democrats attempting to ignore the republican minority that has come back to bite us and shouldn’t have been allowed in the first place jesus gently caress you can’t privilege the majority party that much assholes; and executive orders are overused by everyone the executive branch has tooooooo much loving power no matter what party is in charge)

I am married to a libertarian. Which only makes sense, I was a libertarian when I married him. (And even he’s been sketched out by a lot of what the party seems to be about these days)

Anyway from my perspective as someone who knows a *shitload* of libertarians I’m just kind of standing off in the corner watching a bunch of relationships dissolve. It is totally unnerving how many straight libertarian couples I know in which it’s just sort of a given that the wife will stay home and take care of the kids. Like. You both believe that people have to be producers and contribute work to be worthwhile members of society. And I know you value housework as labor. But you don’t have an even split when it comes to finances or income and I’m profoundly disconcerted by how many women I’m seeing who have *nothing* if they need to leave. This isn’t true of the gay libertarian couples I know, only the straight ones. It’s creepy. These wives all feel like they’ve been out of the game so long that they’ve got nothing to contribute and don’t want to mooch off the welfare state because it’s antithetical to their beliefs so they stay and stay and stay I gotta tell you it’s the saddest loving thing and I am so worried about these women and I don’t know how to help because they don’t believe in handouts and very much buy into the “I made my bed, I gotta sleep in it” thing.

Or hell. Here’s my best example of self-defeating libertarianism:

There’s a guy in the local hacker scene whose handle is John Galt. His real name is Eric something but he wants to be known as John Galt, that’s how libertarian this guy is.

Anyway. Galt is in his late thirties to early forties at this point, is autistic, is homeless, and refuses to accept help. He’ll take little favors - my husband and went to the shelter he was staying in to bring him an old laptop and some leftovers last Thanksgiving, we drove him to the hospital once. I’ve put together care packages of clothes and toiletries and stuff. But offer him a place to stay and he’s mortally offended. Tell him you’ll pull a favor to get him a job and he’s having none of it. He’s got to do it on his own and accepting charity is shameful. He’ll stay in shelters when it’s very cold or if he hasn’t eaten in days but otherwise he’ll sleep in a car (if he has one at the time) or on the street (which is why we had to take him to the hospital).

And I’m going to go ahead and blame Galt’s parents for a lot of this. Some of it is unfortunate timing, in that we as a culture didn’t understand ASDs well enough to identify his symptoms and help him figure out coping mechanisms and management techniques as a child. But his parents compounded that - they taught him that if he was getting help from anyone as an adult he was stealing the taxes of people who didn’t deserve to have their wages robbed by the state, they taught him that if he worked hard and dedicated himself to the company he was hired by they would take care of him and reward him for his loyalty.

The last stable job I remember Galt having was basically babysitting a server farm. He was fired after three months because he was caught on security video sleeping under his desk for three hours a night because he never left the premises. He wanted to give the job his all and prove his loyalty.

When the local transport depot wouldn’t respond to his messages about a vulnerability he had found in their system he decided to prove the vulnerability by placing radios and interfering with security signals (just FYI a hell of a lot of the libertarians I know are into amateur radio). He got arrested, resisted being handcuffed (because he didn’t understand why he was getting arrested when he was just trying to make the depot safer but people wouldn’t pay attention to him) and then got very badly beaten after he had been handcuffed (eventually he was convicted of some minor broadcasting thing and given probation). When my husband and I recommended contacting the ACLU or ADA after this incident he refused because he said that if he needed the help of Statist organizations he didn’t deserve the relief they might provide.

Galt is the single worst, saddest result of libertarianism I’ve ever seen. This is a person who is the perfect candidate for things like section 8 housing or SSI disability or an assisted living facility, who would be able to thrive and be productive in the way that he wants to be productive if he had a safety net that would keep him from getting stabbed again while waiting in line for a shelter. Galt is the *perfect* example of why I think we need a safety net, of the type of person who it exists for and why we as a society should be happy to help people who need help, because more people will be safe and fewer people will be sick, Galt is the perfect example of the type of person who would benefit from a bit of a welfare state - and he’ll never accept the help because he has been taught SO HARD that he must be SO SELF RELIANT that he named himself after a libertarian ubermensch before promptly getting utterly hosed over by the system he believes in that is *completely incompatible* with his needs.

I know far more libertarians in real life than I know socialists or even democrats and republicans. Which is weird because they’re a tiny political minority who happen to make up a disproportionate part of my social circle. So it goes.

So when I talk about this poo poo I’m not coming at it as an ivory tower ancom academic who sees internet arguments spiraling out of control, I’m coming at it as someone who was raised within this ideology and whose facebook feed is cluttered with former roommates and family friends posting Reason articles or anarchy ball comics or free state project memes. I’m coming at this as someone who has seen people suffer under this ideology and promote it anyway. I’m coming at this as someone who lives among survivalists and ancaps and separatists.

Most of the libertarians I know are fine, upstanding people who just want to be left alone. Which is great. Except their children attend public schools, they drive on roads maintained by the state, they eat food subsidized by the department of agriculture, their businesses are bolstered by the incomes of people with high state mandated minimum wage, and they consistently vote as though EVERYONE wants to be left alone (or should be left alone, or deserves to struggle alone or starve). They are people who believe in and support free speech and totally poo poo themselves when someone tries to set up a private safe space (if the hackerspace will kick you out for being racist or misogynist that is the hackerspace’s prerogative as an assertion of *their* right to speech, not an attack on your freedom of speech, assholes). They are people who believe in a meritocracy and never stop to ask why some groups seem to have more merit than others and never examine why that might be considered a problem, or if it can be fixed. They are just as bound by cognitive biases and just as flawed as everyone else but are all the more infuriating for their belief that they are the only rational actors and all the more pitiable for their fear of failure and acceptance that if they should happen to fail they have no value.

Most of the libertarians I know are basically normal people who I believe are misguided. They live their lives and want to be free. We don’t get along great but I don’t want them to personally suffer or hurt for their politics. But gently caress if I didn’t wish that they were kinder.

(that bircher guy can gently caress off forever though)

That's just the main author, all it's missing is a couple of setup questions/examples and a couple of small images (like a tweet quote). Enjoy?

# ? Oct 20, 2017 23:09

Gianthogweed: Jun 3, 2004; "And then I see the disinfectant...where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that. Uhh, by injection inside..." - a Very Stable Genius.

This whole thread is people arguing with a nonexistent absurd absolute strawman.

# ? Oct 21, 2017 00:15

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

Gianthogweed posted:

This whole thread is people arguing with a nonexistent absurd absolute strawman.

# ? Oct 21, 2017 00:16

Captain_Maclaine: Sep 30, 2001; Every moment that I'm alive, I pray for death!

Gianthogweed posted:

This whole thread is people arguing with a nonexistent absurd absolute strawman.

Please proceed.

# ? Oct 21, 2017 00:21

Mr Interweb: Aug 25, 2004

Gianthogweed posted:

This whole thread is people arguing with a nonexistent absurd absolute strawman.

# ? Oct 21, 2017 00:37

Weatherman: Jul 30, 2003; WARBLEKLONK

Gianthogweed posted:

This whole thread is people arguing with a nonexistent absurd absolute strawman.

A wild LOLBERTARIAN appears!

# ? Oct 21, 2017 00:40

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

GET 'EM

Seriously maybe don't meme the guy out of the thread all at once this time

# ? Oct 21, 2017 00:46

Captain_Maclaine: Sep 30, 2001; Every moment that I'm alive, I pray for death!

Goon Danton posted:

GET 'EM

Seriously maybe don't meme the guy out of the thread all at once this time

Yeah, let's give the guy a chance to ~~make an utter fool of himself~~ explain himself.

# ? Oct 21, 2017 00:55

paragon1: Nov 22, 2010; FULL COMMUNISM NOW

Oh how I wish guys like Jrod were just sacks stuffed with hay and put on poles to scare pest birds away.

# ? Oct 21, 2017 02:27

uber_stoat: Jan 21, 2001; Pillbug

yes, give them a chance to embarrass themselves first. it seasons the meat.

# ? Oct 21, 2017 02:33

Bobby Digital: Sep 4, 2009

sweart gliwere posted:

quote:
a lot of the problems we�re currently having with needing a majority of 51 instead of a majority of 60 in senate votes is the result of Obama era democrats attempting to ignore the republican minority that has come back to bite us and shouldn�t have been allowed in the first place jesus gently caress you can�t privilege the majority party that much assholes;

That mean ol� Obama :allears:

Bobby Digital fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Oct 21, 2017

# ? Oct 21, 2017 05:20