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NecroMonster posted:I finished Twig last night and aside from just wanting to talk about it in general I have to say I'm really surprised I never realized what Ibott's real deal was in regards to Helen until like the very last page of the story. I wasn't sure what you were talking about, so I looked over the last chapter again and found something I hadn't noticed before. e.04 posted:She was and always had been fairly Noble in appearance. She’d only ever needed to grow to her full proportions to fit the mold. So he intended her to become a Noble from the beginning? That...makes a weird kind of sense, especially in light of the strong implication that the Lord King was Wollstone's original creation rather than a human.
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Dec 28, 2017 01:58
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ok so, spoilers Ibott built a noble from the ground up, he built a noble that would be an attractive female, and he built her to detest him, to hate him and punish him, but still need him. Sy was always right that Ibott was a pervert, he was just wrong about the kind of pervert Ibott is.
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Dec 28, 2017 03:10
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I mean, All of the Lambs were built and/or designed to become Nobels (and it's probably worth noting that they were designed to use much lower quality "stock", or no stock at all, thus reducing or eliminating the need for the Crown/Academy's "Blocks") so that's not really a concern here.
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Dec 28, 2017 03:14
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NecroMonster posted:ok so, spoilers Ibott built a noble from the ground up, he built a noble that would be an attractive female, and he built her to detest him, to hate him and punish him, but still need him. So Ibbott got what he wanted in the end?
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Dec 28, 2017 03:46
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Silver2195 posted:So Ibbott got what he wanted in the end? Well, yeah. But so did Frey and Hayle. All of the Radham people got what they wanted, even the Lambs got something they wanted in the end.
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Dec 28, 2017 04:26
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Okay, so Twig is a story about a pack of prepubescent Frankensteins going on horrible adventures? If nothing else, that's a hell of a premise.
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Dec 28, 2017 11:19
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current chapter of ward pained me. wildbow can't write dialogue.
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Dec 28, 2017 15:20
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Maybe Ward is going to be his experiment in getting better at dialogue? My eyes kinda glazed over halfway through...
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Dec 28, 2017 15:32
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It's not great, but in his moderate defense, it reads a lot like first draft dialogue which is about all you have time for when writing at the pace he does. It is extraordinarily hard to write punchy conversations that sound natural, and very few people can manage it extemporaneously.
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Dec 28, 2017 16:19
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Even a great author would have trouble keeping a literally ten thousand word dialogue scene interesting. It doesn't help that the chapter doesn't exactly begin or end with a bang or a wham moment. It just kind of slumps along. I understand the feeling that, in web fiction circles, more words = better than, but I really think Wildbow needs people telling him to write less and not more. He could punch up the dialogue if he wasn't writing so much of it in the first place. But part of the Wildbow 'mythology' is basically 'he updates so much and so frequently'. Ten thousand words is, like, 5-10% of the last novel I read. I swear it'd be two or three chapters in one of the Expanse novels. edit: Similar to what I said to Doc, I kind of feel like I need to recuse myself from writing discussions because I don't want to risk coming off as 'that guy who hacks at Wildbow's knees to try and make himself look better'. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 21:32
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Milky Moor posted:I understand the feeling that, in web fiction circles, more words = better than, but I really think Wildbow needs people telling him to write less and not more. He could punch up the dialogue if he wasn't writing so much of it in the first place. But part of the Wildbow 'mythology' is basically 'he updates so much and so frequently'. When it comes to fiction writing, volume wins out over quality. That's not just part of Wildbow's stick. You see the same trend in pulp sci-fi and romance writers. Unless one is superhumanly talented or extraordinarily lucky, cranking poo poo out is the most reliable way to earn a living. And in a line of work practically built on quicksand, reliable counts for a lot. Maybe it's unfortunate from a reader perspective because you can look and see where an author might do better, but from where they stand, continually laying track before an oncoming train, the prospect of paying all their bills probably looks a lot more compelling.
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Dec 28, 2017 22:11
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Skippy McPants posted:When it comes to fiction writing, volume wins out over quality. That's not just part of Wildbow's stick. You see the same trend in pulp sci-fi and romance writers. Unless one is superhumanly talented or extraordinarily lucky, cranking poo poo out is the most reliable way to earn a living. And in a line of work practically built on quicksand, reliable counts for a lot. If Wildbow is writing hand-to-mouth, so to speak, then he's making a terminal error and it's no wonder he's writing something like that. It's weird because he even says that you should have something like twelve chapters in advance, which allows you to spend time editing and punching things up before uploading. His comments on that chapter make it seem like he is writing hand-to-mouth and, well, I'm not sure why. He has three years of goodwill and one of the most zealous fanbases on the net. He should try spending that political capital. If WB is in the 'laying track before an oncoming train' creative trap then, well, that's unfortunate. But I really do not think that even just cutting it in half to 5000 words, which I'd still argue would be too long for what that scene is, would not result in anything negative such as a backer revolt. Saying that volume matters more than quality might be true in the most cynical sense of trying to make a living via creativity. But it's also how you end up with things like that one author on Amazon who calls himself 'the most successful self-published author' on there or whatever because he sells dozens of actually incomplete, unfinished stories (some of them just ending mid-sentence, like he just stopped writing) and makes money because some people will buy anything. edit: Like, are you saying he isn't talented, lucky or an author? Because even with my misgivings of his style and writing, he has enough talent to complete works, was lucky enough to make something that was basically crack to the brains of certain fanbases around the net (or talented enough to craft something deliberately to do so), and I think it's safe to say he is an author at this point. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 22:37
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Oh no, I'm not saying he isn't lucky, or talented and hard working. I'm just saying that he's a working author, the kind who doesn't enjoy the notoriety and commercial success which permits extended furloughs for editing or reconstitution. Hand-to-mouth is a relative term. Like, consider that a 12 chapter buffer is only six weeks at his update pace. Not such a long span of time when deadlines are looming. There was also this tidbit from the Twig postmortem he posted on his blog,quote:Taking a break would only make things worse. Really truly. The +SAN (sanity) I’d get from a break would be outweighed by the -SAN as I interrupted my stride and tried to find it again, and it wouldn’t address or even put a dent in the other stuff that’s what’s really taxing me. Creative work is so fickle, and the mere prospect of losing a productive rhythm can cause so much stress and anxiety that sometimes it's better to stay in the groove, even if it isn't turning out the best product. Stephen King famously wrote 2,000 words per day, minimum, even on his worst days. Even if the output was utter poo poo, and he kept on long after he was rich enough to stop writing forever if he wanted, all because maintaining the flow was so crucial. My point is that—from what I can glean—Wildbow's process, his business, and his place in life simply don't allow for the hard-knock, multi-pass editing you'd see from a published work. A lot of people take for granted how much that additional polish benefits stuff like, say, dialogue. So while it's a valid criticism that his character interactions are often stilted, and while there's always room to improve, I'll also never expect well-oiled banter the likes of Pratchett or Tarantino to be commonplace in his serials. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 23:10
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it did cross my mind that the pace of his output might thwart attempts at good dialogue. still, i'd rather he pick one speech trait for each character in that kind of conversation to try to at least give the characters distinctive voices. and try to avoid making jokes unless something blindingly good occurs to him. he's really not funny.
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Dec 28, 2017 23:34
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I started reading The Gods are Bastards today. Pretty dang good. I didn't know web serials were a *thing,* much less written this well.
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Dec 29, 2017 00:20
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NecroMonster posted:I finished Twig last night and aside from just wanting to talk about it in general I have to say I'm really surprised I never realized what Ibott's real deal was in regards to Helen until like the very last page of the story. its hinted at a couple of times and by a couple times i mean literally every time they mention the project name however i was also still ins anely surprised by that scene twig is so good
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Dec 29, 2017 00:26
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eonwe posted:I started reading The Gods are Bastards today. Pretty dang good. I didn't know web serials were a *thing,* much less written this well. I'm glad you're enjoying it, it's one of my favorites. You should check out some of the others people talk about in this thread too, they're all good. Which reminds me that I haven't updated the OP in like forever so I should probably get on that. Does anyone have a good summary of Twig I can slap on there since I haven't read it yet?
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Dec 29, 2017 02:44
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I was curious, anyone other than me read the Zombie Knight? I came back to it after about a year and a half off and while I'm still mostly following what's happening, I definitely have forgot some important info.
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Dec 29, 2017 03:23
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TBH I recently gave it a go and dropped it after ten chapters or so. I imagine it might get better eventually but eh, I've got other, actually good poo poo to read.
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Dec 29, 2017 12:07
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The Shortest Path posted:I'm glad you're enjoying it, it's one of my favorites. You should check out some of the others people talk about in this thread too, they're all good. Teenage Frankensteins rage against the machine in 1920s America
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Dec 29, 2017 16:46
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Teenage Frankensteins rage against the machine in 1920s America That's a bit of a spoiler. At the start of the story, the are the machine.
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Dec 29, 2017 17:06
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Silver2195 posted:That's a bit of a spoiler. At the start of the story, the are the machine. I'm only two and a half arcs in, but it's blatantly obvious from the moment you learn of their circumstances that the gang will rebel against the Acadamy.
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Dec 29, 2017 17:53
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Yeah, I only read the first arc before getting distracted and that seemed like the obvious direction for the story to go?
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Dec 29, 2017 23:17
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Teenage Frankensteins rage against the machine in 1920s America Edit any of the Famous Five titles The Frankenstein Five /Get into a Fix /Have a Wonderful Time/Get into Trouble/ etc.
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Dec 30, 2017 10:04
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The new Wandering Inn interlude chapter is insane. I don't even know how to parse most of what happens.
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Dec 30, 2017 15:08
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The Shortest Path posted:The new Wandering Inn interlude chapter is insane. I don't even know how to parse most of what happens. Variations of this have been done many times in fairy tales before, it was nice to see it here. Fitting as well. I especially liked Ryoka's choice at the end. So that's the end of Volume 3, and a week break before 4 starts up. Reading the author's notes, I feel guilty that Pirateaba feels guilty about taking a week's break. Kalas fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Dec 30, 2017 |
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Dec 30, 2017 16:07
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I'm honestly creeped out by how well she writes depression. Like is she just writing Erin from her own experiences? Cause Erin is depressed as gently caress. Also new mother of learning is out! I love this story more then I should! It was admittedly a bit crap in the beginning but the adventures and the blatant cheating and the grand plans are kinda fun! And heists! I think I have it figured out though Red Robes identity. It's one of Zachs simulacrums that broke off. We keep having the characters talk about murderous simulacrums and Zach is honestly kinda unhinged to begin with. That is my theory at least!
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Jan 1, 2018 23:19
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Affi posted:I'm honestly creeped out by how well she writes depression. Like is she just writing Erin from her own experiences? Cause Erin is depressed as gently caress. She's on internet, so probably. quote:Also new mother of learning is out! Mother of Learning is dope. quote:I think I have it figured out though Red Robes identity. It's one of Zachs simulacrums that broke off. We keep having the characters talk about murderous simulacrums and Zach is honestly kinda unhinged to begin with. That is my theory at least! cough
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Jan 1, 2018 23:32
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In addition to the mythological vibe from Wandering In, serious Dark Souls vibes as well.
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Jan 2, 2018 04:01
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That was a great way to end volume 3; I was on edge the whole chapter. It's been a long time since TWI's had some good old fashioned nightmare fuel; I love stories about nice people being nice to each other but even for me the all-good feels-all-the-time Christmas chapters were going on a bit too long. Also, pirateaba didn't fool me this time! I caught on to the hidden text! I just discovered recently that aside from the Wistram golem stuff, when Ryoka first meets Teriarch, it actually flat out says he's a dragon, except it's written in black since it was scrubbed from her memory. I'm rather a fan of when webserials/webcomics try something that can't be done in print, as long as they don't get too obnoxious with it.
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Jan 2, 2018 14:43
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Argue posted:'m rather a fan of when webserials/webcomics try something that can't be done in print, as long as they don't get too obnoxious with it. Ashley Cope's webcomic Unsounded does this now and then, not often but when you hit a web comic page that extends past the borders or has multiple sub pages, it's pretty drat nifty. The artwork can reach amazing levels. Warning: If you think The Wandering Inn is grimdark, Unsounded will make you curl up in a blanket and try to remember where your happy place is. (We have a thread, https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3531215 )
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Jan 2, 2018 20:24
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Megazver posted:She's on internet, so probably. Well drat it. Or rather yeah that is exactly my thoughts on it. Only issue is where does the simulacrum start the reset? It fought Zach once at his home when he was just getting dressed so probably not in the same room. I have another theory. The reset doesn't start when Zorian or Zach wakes up. It starts while they are asleep. And I wonder what will happen if Zorian trains himself to control his sleep and wakes up right as the loop starts. Will he find red robe? Affi fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 22:38
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Affi posted:Well drat it. Or rather yeah that is exactly my thoughts on it. I mean, at this point I am pretty sure Red Robe left the simulation?
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Jan 3, 2018 09:19
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So, after skipping over it at first, I've finally started to read Twig. I'm about 1/3rd of the way through it, and holy drat the writing is so much better than Ward. I was reading the newest update, and I can't even remember who all the kids in the support group are. Within the first few chapters of Twig all the characters are established, with good descriptions of personality, how they fit into the group, and what their quirks/goals are. It's all done rather cleverly too, without too much awkward dialogue.
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Jan 3, 2018 21:42
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SerCypher posted:So, after skipping over it at first, I've finally started to read Twig. I don't disagree on the memorable issue. Unfortunately, Ward gets hit with the double whammy of being a sequel and having a protagonist with limited information. Wildbow clearly expects the reader to be familiar with Ashley and Sveta, which is fair for the latter but not the former. Remembing Damsel of Distress in the massive cast of villains who rotated through the S9 is a big ask. Of the newcomers, Kenzie is the only one that stood out to me. Telling Tristan and Byron (the parahumans sharing a body) apart from Rain (the mulitrigger) or.... Chris? was a bit of a chore. I honestly forgot Chris existed until I went back to double check. In Twig, Sy already has a deep understanding of every Lamb from the moment we meet him. That makes writing character details so much easier. Victora, on the other hand, barely knows anything about the support group so specific prose about their traits is out of the question. All that's left is whatever they convey through dialogue, and as we've already established, imparting voice is not Wildbow's strongest suit. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Jan 4, 2018 |
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Jan 4, 2018 12:14
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I very much enjoyed the most recent Practical Guide, specifically the back and forth between Squire and Warlock. I thought the dialogue between them was some of the best in the series. And I'm intrigued by the hypocrisy in Warlock's stance on Cat - not the one she calls him out on, which is totally justified (he is every bit the monster he accuses her of being) - but that he seems to hate her for the threat that she represents to his best friend through her existence as his "replacement". How is that situation any different from Apprentice and Warlock? We just saw Apprentice transition into another Mage name, so why would he not assume that she could or would do the same? He claims that she will be the death of Black, but Masego wasn't the death of Warlock. Speaking of Cat's potentially impending transition, do you guys think that Black Queen will be her new name, or is that just a red herring? I've been convinced that she won't become a Black Knight since very early on, but I'm not sure I buy the Black Queen as her final form. After all, a Squire has to become a Knight, right? Maybe Knight Queen or something similar. Or Night Queen if wordplay is more your style, haha.
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Jan 4, 2018 15:47
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Reading Ward as someone who barely read Worm but has been exposed to enough nerdery about it (this thread included) wasn't terribly difficult to me, granted obviously I didn't know who most of the returning cast in this latest arc were, but most of it is cleared up pretty well. Any complaints I have regarding the story don't really come from that stuff - except kind of interlude 1, which felt like it expected a lot of knowing/sniffing out capes to make you give a poo poo about what was going on. I have two big issues with Ward so far. The first is as people have mentioned, the writing is really struggling to pull together the story Wildbow apparently wants to tell - right now anyway - and a lot of the dialogue and general goings-on in this arc felt tedious or sub-par. I was actually quite enjoying the first arc largely based on the focus on Victoria's situation and her navigating various relationships, and this second arc can't do either of those things since it's focused on introducing a whole heap of new characters. I guess you could say I enjoyed reading Wildbow writing about Victoria more than I enjoy reading Wildbow writing about Victoria and her wacky friends. Which is my second problem: I honestly don't find myself interested in reading about any of her new group of misfits at all, certainly not compared to the characters in arc 1. I don't even just mean the relationships with baggage either, the ill-fated team of heroes were a ton more interesting to me than her group therapy pals are, which annoys me extra since I was looking forward to seeing what Wildbow would come up with for them before they were introduced. Especially the twins and Chris gave the impression of being a pain to read about, and Sveta for all her sweetness doesn't interest me that much, nor does Rain. Damsel of Distress was the only mildly entertaining one to me and we hardly got to actually know her at all, pretty much - no idea if I'd be interested in actually having her stick around for ages. I'll still be reading on for a while to see how it goes though.
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Jan 4, 2018 15:50
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Silynt posted:I very much enjoyed the most recent Practical Guide, specifically the back and forth between Squire and Warlock. I thought the dialogue between them was some of the best in the series. And I'm intrigued by the hypocrisy in Warlock's stance on Cat - not the one she calls him out on, which is totally justified (he is every bit the monster he accuses her of being) - but that he seems to hate her for the threat that she represents to his best friend through her existence as his "replacement". How is that situation any different from Apprentice and Warlock? We just saw Apprentice transition into another Mage name, so why would he not assume that she could or would do the same? He claims that she will be the death of Black, but Masego wasn't the death of Warlock. It's because Black seems to be forcing the story such that Cat is his replacement and the continuation of his work, and Warlock can tell.
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Jan 4, 2018 17:37
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Insurrectionist posted:I'll still be reading on for a while to see how it goes though. I think the main problem here is that a large part of what Wildbow does well are powers and action and the relation between the two, and so introducing a bunch of new characters where neither are happening seems like a terrible way for him to do it. I thought Relay and Crystalclear were more interesting in their small cameo than most of the therapy group were in the whole arc. I hope the next arc starts off with a bang. Show off the kids' powers, put them in a situation where bad things might happen to them so I care. Team dynamics for a team not doing anything just aren't interesting.
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Jan 4, 2018 20:13
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Tom Clancy is Dead posted:I think the main problem here is that a large part of what Wildbow does well are powers and action and the relation between the two, and so introducing a bunch of new characters where neither are happening seems like a terrible way for him to do it. I thought Relay and Crystalclear were more interesting in their small cameo than most of the therapy group were in the whole arc. I mean I haven't read much Wildbow but I found the first arc and the start of this second both fine enough to read. And I've always found action to be the by far most boring parts of stories like these, Wildbow's stuff no exception. The powers I can see, though so far only really the broken triggers part was particularly interesting to me thus far. It's mostly the chapters after 2.4 that have me a bit in the dumps. Well, the interlude was fine again I suppose.
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Jan 4, 2018 21:15
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