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I am able to read a story within the context of the time it was written in as well as how it compares to modern sensibilities and my own opinions and belief systems. I call it critical thinking.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:10
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Canonization is not permanent. Literature reflects the values of a society, not defines them. A text becoming repulsive as society advances is not a bad thing. To think we must pardon a work for its offenses due to time is to render the text inorganic. You cannot shut off a reader's subjectivity for the sake of history. I feel like there's a huge middle ground that both sides of the debate miss. Do the Bible / famous author A's racist works / famous author B's sexist works have problematic readings in the modern day? Yep, you betcha. Are they still worth reading both as an insight into what the great works of their respective eras had to say about these issues, as well as on what merits they may otherwise possess? Absolutely. Birth of a Nation or Leni Riefenstahl hold important places in film history. Watching them doesn't mean you are a white supremacist and recognizing them as powerful pieces of work is a world apart from endorsing the content of either.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:15
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Looking for recommendations for: Thoughtful rural memoirs, or oral histories. Please no Vance. An English translation of the Qur'an. I'm considering at M. A. S. Abdel Haleem's right now. A spy novel, but not set in the Cold War. Bonus points for non-white or non-male authors. Any given book you think I or others should read. Phyzzle posted:I was looking for sci-fi/spec-fic about people living at different scales. Ringworld is an example, but even better was Jorge Luis Borges’ Library of Babel, a story about living in a building containing every possible 400 page book that can be made from alphabetical characters. Another example would be Surface Tension by James Blish, a story about microscopic aquatic humanoids having to invent ships that can carry them from one puddle to another. Raft by Stephen Baxter was fun but I read it a long time ago. The people there wound up in a universe where the force of gravity is a billion times stronger than ours. Matter by Iain Banks heavily involves an inhabited superstructure with some fun twists. Riverworld was also a great read for me back in the day, I read the series until it started getting substantially worse. All these recs are basically scifi-adventure, with Raft having the most sci.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:16
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regulargonzalez posted:I feel like there's a huge middle ground that both sides of the debate miss. Do the Bible / famous author A's racist works / famous author B's sexist works have problematic readings in the modern day? Yep, you betcha. Are they still worth reading both as an insight into what the great works of their respective eras had to say about these issues, as well as on what merits they may otherwise possess? Absolutely. I feel like there's a huge middle ground that both sides of the debate miss. Reading is an activity that can be performed for pleasure rather than in some sort of attempt to gain insight into the perspectives of past eras. In reading for pleasure, it makes little sense to read works which will piss you off.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:19
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ulmont posted:I feel like there's a huge middle ground that both sides of the debate miss. Reading is an activity that can be performed for pleasure rather than in some sort of attempt to gain insight into the perspectives of past eras. In reading for pleasure, it makes little sense to read works which will piss you off. Some people do both at various times! Nothing but sugar pleases the palate but not the figure.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:22
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chernobyl kinsman posted:I'm not talking about the canon, which isn't an idea which I have particular use for. I'm saying that a work's repulsiveness (or attractiveness) to specific modern sensibilities ought not to be conflated with its value or merit as a work. To do so is to self-impose crushing cultural and intellectual limitations and is just an inverted form of Victorian-style Puritanism I think we have to be sensitive to the fact different readers would have different strengths of emotional reaction. I could forgive the implicit racism of a Huck Finn or Heart of Darkness because I can contextualize the era it was written in. However, I do not think it would be puritanical for a person of color to decide those elements are too much to overcome
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Jan 18, 2018 21:25
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But the racism in Huck Finn was used by Twain to show how lovely racism is, not condoning it.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:31
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regulargonzalez posted:I feel like there's a huge middle ground that both sides of the debate miss. Do the Bible / famous author A's racist works / famous author B's sexist works have problematic readings in the modern day? Yep, you betcha. Are they still worth reading both as an insight into what the great works of their respective eras had to say about these issues, as well as on what merits they may otherwise possess? Absolutely. yeah this is more or less exactly what I'm trying to say
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Jan 18, 2018 21:36
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Franchescanado posted:But the racism in Huck Finn was used by Twain to show how lovely racism is, not condoning it. For how progressive Twain tried to be, Jim is still a passive dim-witted manchild without agency who requires white figures to empower him
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Jan 18, 2018 21:38
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Junkie Disease posted:So he can only be great if his writing is better not the content or his impact Being a good writer is based on writing well.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:43
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I think we have to be sensitive to the fact different readers would have different strengths of emotional reaction. yeah that's fair enough, but this started because one guy came in and said "I hear this book isn't woke, is it still ok to read it" which is not the same thing. and at any rate you're still left with the question of how far that sentiment ought to go, as with my song of Roland example
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Jan 18, 2018 21:43
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Also is the scifi thread really talking about Lyndon Johnson?
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Jan 18, 2018 21:46
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Mr. Squishy posted:Also is the scifi thread really talking about Lyndon Johnson? Yeah
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Jan 18, 2018 21:48
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chernobyl kinsman posted:yeah that's fair enough, but this started because one guy came in and said "I hear this book isn't woke, is it still ok to read it" which is not the same thing. and at any rate you're still left with the question of how far that sentiment ought to go, as with my song of Roland example I, for one, would not recommend the song of Roland to my Muslim students
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Jan 18, 2018 22:12
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That is because you are weak.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:22
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:That is because you are weak.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:42
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I prefer to say I have the humility to let the greats troll and to cheer from the sideline
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Jan 18, 2018 23:31
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thatdarnedbob posted:Looking for recommendations for: Maybe Rural Rides by William Cobbet, although I don't know if it's exactly a 'memoir' Mel Mudkiper posted:I, for one, would not recommend the song of Roland to my Muslim students The song of roland says that muslims are treacherous pagans who worship Apollo or something, and to be perfectly honest that makes them sound cool
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Jan 18, 2018 23:39
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A human heart posted:Maybe Rural Rides by William Cobbet, although I don't know if it's exactly a 'memoir' It looks like a people-focused travelogue by someone who cares and knows their poo poo, which fits my urge really well. Thanks for the rec!
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Jan 18, 2018 23:51
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Oh it's good and you should read it, I just wasn't sure what kind of memoir you were looking for specifically.
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Jan 19, 2018 00:15
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A human heart posted:The song of roland says that muslims are treacherous pagans who worship Apollo or something, and to be perfectly honest that makes them sound cool You're thinking of Apollyon, the angel of the abyss.
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Jan 19, 2018 01:34
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Is it worth it to check out Ready Player One before the movie comes out? I’m seeing a lot of 5/5 ratings but not sure if It’s worth my $10.
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Jan 19, 2018 02:40
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No.
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Jan 19, 2018 02:50
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AutisticAwl posted:Is it worth it to check out Ready Player One before the movie comes out? I’m seeing a lot of 5/5 ratings but not sure if It’s worth my $10. look at every single person who gives it a 5/5 look at how loving stupid and worthless they are realize you will be joining a herd of human dredge going through life in stained t-shirts with batman logos on them and laughing at kevin smith movies do you want to be that person in summary
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Jan 19, 2018 02:56
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AutisticAwl posted:Is it worth it to check out Ready Player One before the movie comes out? I’m seeing a lot of 5/5 ratings but not sure if It’s worth my $10. The forum view of it is pretty universally negative unless you're really into 1980s video game nostalgia.
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Jan 19, 2018 03:01
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The forum view of it is pretty universally negative and you should see the some of the poo poo these people read
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Jan 19, 2018 03:02
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a lot about LBJ, apparently
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Jan 19, 2018 03:04
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Any recommendations for non-fiction about neanderthal life?
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Jan 19, 2018 03:04
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Biographies only
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Jan 19, 2018 03:15
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Selachian posted:If you can set a few months aside, Robert Caro's multi-volume LBJ bio is the definitive one. Daaaaaayumn, that's 3,522 pages spread over 4 books. I just might pick up the first one (it's only a measly 960 pages, after all) and stick my toe in LBJ's pool. Thanks for the recommendation.
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Jan 19, 2018 04:13
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artsy fartsy posted:Any recommendations for non-fiction about neanderthal life? Fire and Fury just came out, pretty controversial though.
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Jan 19, 2018 05:05
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Time Cowboy posted:Fire and Fury just came out, pretty controversial though. Okay, that's pretty good.
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Jan 19, 2018 23:07
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USMC_Karl posted:Daaaaaayumn, that's 3,522 pages spread over 4 books. I just might pick up the first one (it's only a measly 960 pages, after all) and stick my toe in LBJ's pool. Thanks for the recommendation. LRB has a long rear end review of one of the volumes if you want to get a feel of it: https://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n13/david-runciman/what-if-hed-made-it-earlier
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Jan 20, 2018 02:22
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Hey folks! This may be vague, but I'm looking for a couple of different types of books that I might want to sink myself into for a while. I really, really like whodunnit /mystery type things that have a "reveal" in them that you can look back at and go "ohhhhhhhhhh". I liked Blood Red Turns Dollar Green a lot. I'm not exactly looking specifically for horror/murder or whatnot, but any type of plot-twisty type thing would work well. I'm also looking for books about pop culture, particularly TV (if there's a genuinely good book about The Simpsons, video games, or other general nerdy type things, I'd probably like it. I just picked up Sepinwall's "The Revolution Was Televised", so maybe more things like that? I also liked ASOIAF but more for the political machinations instead of the tits and dragons.
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Jan 23, 2018 02:00
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Capsaicin posted:Hey folks! This may be vague, but I'm looking for a couple of different types of books that I might want to sink myself into for a while. I really, really like whodunnit /mystery type things that have a "reveal" in them that you can look back at and go "ohhhhhhhhhh". I liked Blood Red Turns Dollar Green a lot. I'm not exactly looking specifically for horror/murder or whatnot, but any type of plot-twisty type thing would work well. The Man Who Was Thursday -Chesterton The New York Trilogy -Auster The Little Sleep -Tremblay My Name Is Red -Pamuk Inherent Vice - Pynchon Not a mystery, but Mother Night by Vonnegut is full of twists and turns. Capsaicin posted:I'm also looking for books about pop culture, particularly TV (if there's a genuinely good book about The Simpsons, video games, or other general nerdy type things, I'd probably like it. I just picked up Sepinwall's "The Revolution Was Televised", so maybe more things like that? Slimed! An Oral History of Nickelodeon I Want My MTV! An oral history of MTV Live From New York! An oral history of SNL
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Jan 23, 2018 02:14
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Capsaicin posted:Hey folks! This may be vague, but I'm looking for a couple of different types of books that I might want to sink myself into for a while. I really, really like whodunnit /mystery type things that have a "reveal" in them that you can look back at and go "ohhhhhhhhhh". I liked Blood Red Turns Dollar Green a lot. I'm not exactly looking specifically for horror/murder or whatnot, but any type of plot-twisty type thing would work well. CJ Cherryh's Foreigner series goes whole-hog on the political machinations, as does Cyteen, if you don't mind some sci-fi in your politics.
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Jan 23, 2018 02:49
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Franchescanado posted:Not a mystery, but Mother Night by Vonnegut is full of twists and turns. Any time I see this posted anywhere I have to jump in and mention that it’s one of my favorite things.
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Jan 23, 2018 04:08
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For books with twists, I'd throw in Matt Ruff's Set This House in Order, N. K. Jemisin's The Fifth Season, Agatha Christie's The Murder of Roger Ackroyd, and Dennis Lehane's Shutter Island. And if you don't mind kid/YA lit, Ellen Raskin has some pretty drat clever books, including The Westing Game and The Mysterious Disappearance of Leon -- I Mean Noel.
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Jan 23, 2018 15:52
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AutisticAwl posted:Is it worth it to check out Ready Player One before the movie comes out? I’m seeing a lot of 5/5 ratings but not sure if It’s worth my $10. Check this out instead.
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Jan 25, 2018 23:20
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Mother Night is really important to have on hand as a physical copy, it's like Narcan for when your friends OD on /pol.
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Jan 26, 2018 06:24
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