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maids and butlers were interesting promotion wise, ninjas were not. outlaws as a class ruled though, giving thieves bows and high res kept them interesting without making them too threatening.
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Feb 28, 2018 12:33
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rannum posted:I'd argue Camilla/Minerva have just as fine dueling capabilities as the pegasus knights are. Pegasus knights have a lot more awkward positioning issues, strong skills that can help juggle/stun the enemy and i've seen them instant proc the crit gauge even after it disappears (all of the gauges in this game feel really haphazard, honestly..). I've used both quite frequently and there is just nothing in the peg tool kit that has me put them above the wyverns, much less making them the best character in the game, and even less in the same zip code as corrin whose kits is just all over the place in anything it tries to accomplish. The way with Wyvern Riders, you either try to go for the long way of killing character enemies with Dash Strong attack, or you risk it with their combo finishers, and you always keep them paired up because their kit on their own is absolute garbage (besides the crowdclearing part) and leaves them far too still. It also doesn't help that they've got weaknesses to the two most prominent enemy side slayers (Draco- and Wingslayer) and an additional soft-weakness against magic attacks too (I wouldn't advise going up against enemies promoted and up unless your Wyvern Rider significantly outlevels the enemy, much less going up against multiples of them, with Minerva having it worse because her Res is frankly awful while Camilla can at least fix that with a Statflip build).
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Feb 28, 2018 14:24
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For the record I've always felt the thief class was a bad liability mostly there to fetch loot out of chests, so having someone to just jab the enemy throne goku to make them a lot more do-able is a-okay with me.
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Feb 28, 2018 14:30
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Folt The Bolt posted:The way with Wyvern Riders, you either try to go for the long way of killing character enemies with Dash Strong attack, or you risk it with their combo finishers, and you always keep them paired up because their kit on their own is absolute garbage (besides the crowdclearing part) and leaves them far too still. It also doesn't help that they've got weaknesses to the two most prominent enemy side slayers (Draco- and Wingslayer) and an additional soft-weakness against magic attacks too (I wouldn't advise going up against enemies promoted and up unless your Wyvern Rider significantly outlevels the enemy, much less going up against multiples of them, with Minerva having it worse because her Res is frankly awful while Camilla can at least fix that with a Statflip build). Calling dracoslayers prominent is a bit much. Its Chrom, Lucina, Lyn & Marth and you rarely run into Chrom and sometimes they dont even spawn with their falchions And I still don't see their kit being garbage? Their combos still move them enough to keep with the enemies they're hitting and their surroundings while not going out of control. Pegasus Knights are more mobile in their combos but also this means they go careening around when trying to hit people. I'ts manageable but not something I'd mark down as a "plus" I've been playing a lot of them lately and being able to slam down, slash a bunch, transition into one of their rapid strike combos works fine. They aren't that slow, the combo aside from their awful awful fire tornado attack deal decent damage and break gauges pretty well especially with critical focus. So far as axe kits go I prefer Lissa the best, but the wyverns are still firmly solid in getting things done.
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Feb 28, 2018 14:34
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rannum posted:Calling dracoslayers prominent is a bit much. Its Chrom, Lucina, Lyn & Marth and you rarely run into Chrom and sometimes they dont even spawn with their falchions Thing is, the mobility on the peg. knights is just something that needs to get used to compared to Wyvern Riders needing every OP skill in the book in order to have anything resembling passable dueling. At high level play, you're going to be doing critical hits a bunch, and Wyvern Riders have literally the worst C4 for forcing stun gauges + disadvantage against the majority of character enemies due to their weapon being an axe. Peg. Knights can force stun gauge with every hit from their C4 along with it's long range, then immediately make use of their excellent high-mobile attacks to close the gap and make the crit. And as lance users, they will force stun gauges on a majority of the enemies in the game too (and quite a bit of yellow ones which can easily be comboed into a C5, or just C4 spam). C1 into Aerial Strong also makes them the second best crowdclearer after the wyverns, and unlike the wyverns, they are much much more independent in terms of needing a partner.
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Feb 28, 2018 15:05
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Folt The Bolt posted:They're prominent enough, given that of those four, only Lyn doesn't get to use her dracoslayer occasionally, and only on low-level missions. Above that, they get prominent enough to be a threat and that still isn't accounting for the bows and magic that they're also rather weak against. I've finished out the base game maps and am in the latter parts of the SD DLC and I seriously would not consider any of the dracoslayers prominent. I literally just had a mid60s map where Lucina had a Brave Sword for some reason. And worse come to worse you can just throw on Iote's Shield, there's usually a free slot to put it in and even pegasus knights are going to use that if you want to use them on maps with archers. And man I just do not agree with your pegasus/wyvern run downs at all. I've found wyverns performing perfectly well even without "every OP skill in the book"
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Feb 28, 2018 15:36
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I still don't get why peg knights are top tier for you. They feel like rear end to control (the careening all over the place thing) and I dunno, they just never clicked for me. I'm most likely playing them wrong though. Are you relying on your pair-up/dual strikes to show gauge? Because their C4 feels awful -- its animation takes like 5 years for even a single arrow to come out, during which you're vulnerable, and it has a narrow tiny hitbox that makes the arrows easy to miss (doubly so, because you're bouncing and flying all over the place so you could miss in the z-axis too). And if you're relying on pair-ups for gauges, then it's only fair to compare against all other pair-ups. And I think Ryoma (specialist at dueling, kinda bad at crowd clearing) + Camilla/Minerva (crowd clearing specialist, kinda rear end at dueling) easily takes the cake. Maybe the answer for me is 'git gud' but Lyn/Navarre seem to take fraction of the effort for all of the benefits -- crowd clearing, dueling, going really loving fast. And are vastly more fun to boot. Their super high attack speeds also makes them extremely safe to play, as they can get in, get out, or keep the enemy in a stunlock much more reliably -- basically mash your buttons and you hit them before they hit you. I particularly like using C5 -> heavy chain (4x normal followed by 5x heavy attacks) to clear trash while zooming towards my next objective. Archers and mages: I found the archer charged C1 super risky to use, but is satisfying if you like pushing your luck or playing well/playing carefully. It's not a consistent yellow gauge by any means, and I feel like it's more of a gimmick than a reliable way to yellow gauge. I do like using mages to yellow gauge, although I guess I'm the opposite -- I somehow have an easier time charging the C1 bar on Robin/Linde than I do on Elise/Leo. The C5/C6s have wider area, I guess, so you're trading point-blank sheer area for narrower but longer range I guess? But yeah, I find the horses harder to control during combat, though I guess it's because I'm a dodge spammer rather than a block spammer. I feel the real benefit to using archers and mages (which bumps them up a little higher in my personal tier list) is that they have no disadvantaged matchups. This makes them fantastic pair-up backpacks because they will always expose gauge on a dual attack. In that vein, I feel like Anna and Takumi are at least a few cuts above the rest, because not only do they have decently high skill to make them excellent dual warrior backpacks, but their decent/sky-high luck also lets them deal poo poo tons of damage as vanguard in their own right. But Anna is cooler and funnier and rides a loving tank in her special so she is the clear winner. e: Ah missed your post above. And also Niles should be nowhere near the other archers on your tier list, because his moveset is literally the same as other archers except he does like 0 damage. facepalmolive fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Feb 28, 2018 |
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Feb 28, 2018 15:39
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rannum posted:I've finished out the base game maps and am in the latter parts of the SD DLC and I seriously would not consider any of the dracoslayers prominent. I literally just had a mid60s map where Lucina had a Brave Sword for some reason. And worse come to worse you can just throw on Iote's Shield, there's usually a free slot to put it in and even pegasus knights are going to use that if you want to use them on maps with archers. And I am at the point where I'm facing Lv. 100+ enemies and by God help me but the Wyverns are utter trash. I'm actually thinking about forgoing Iote's Shield on Peg. Knights. They're just that good at outranging an archer, and worst comes to worst, their C6 makes them invulnerable to damage of all kinds (not unflinchable; invulvnerable).
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Feb 28, 2018 15:43
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^^^^: I think the AI archers use C1, though maybe they only charge half way? That has some decent range to it, and if your C4 is outranging them, well then Jesus Christ but I can't just aim my golden arrows that well that far out into the distance. How do you even break gauges at that distance? Dive in and C5 or something?facepalmolive posted:I somehow have an easier time charging the C1 bar on Robin/Linde than I do on Elise/Leo. The C5/C6s have wider area, I guess, so you're trading point-blank sheer area for narrower but longer range I guess? But yeah, I find the horses harder to control during combat, though I guess it's because I'm a dodge spammer rather than a block spammer. Also to expand on this, it feels like Robin's attacks come out faster than Linde's and Elise/Leo's. It could just be a pure perception thing, or I could just be bad at controlling horses. Regardless, faster attack speeds/skills coming out faster = considerably safer for me. facepalmolive fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Feb 28, 2018 |
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Feb 28, 2018 15:51
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From what I've seen of Folt's posting (both on this and Hyrule), they tend to value tiers/power/raw numbers over the "is the character fun/easy" empirical aspect of the game. Peg knights are efficient but not necessarily fun or easy to use because, as said, they rocket fuckin everywhere. Once you get the play style down, sure, they might be faster than everyone, but it may be less fun than just going nuts with an infantry sword. There's a chance you're talking past each other in this debate because maybe you value different things in a character. (This is not a dig of course, there's no right or wrong way to play something like a Warriors game. I just prefer to gently caress around and be inefficient as hell. I won't use charge attacks every time I should. I'll use Corrin at all.)
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Feb 28, 2018 16:14
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I do value both! I think for tier list things, I maximize value and consistency while minimizing effort (i.e. maximize 'practical' effectiveness, given how well/poorly I play), though Folt may just optimize for pure value (maximize effectiveness given perfect play) -- for instance, in practice I find much fewer windows of opportunity to use charged archer C1 compared to mage C1. Appreciate the context/heads up, nonetheless! If it's purely raw power/numbers, then Anna should just flat out win because Luna is a multiplier, whereas all the other modifiers stack additively. Or so says the internet, anyway. In practice, I don't always play the 'strongest' but end up gravitating towards who I find most fun. I think Niles is quite bad tiers-wise, but I play him quite a bit because his animations make my inner 12-year-old happy (and also because I was trying grind supports to give most of my team Lethality). Oboro also seems numerically quite bad, but she's also mad fun. Of course I (and everyone else) am biased towards who I play most, so I'm probably 'better' at playing Lyn or archers than I am at peg knights, which also tanks my opinions of peg knights somewhat. And well, doing the Sol Katti scroll mission without Astra or dracoslayer definitely forced me to learn archers, a class I previously despised. To give some context as far as my progression goes, I haven't hit end-end game yet but doing mostly level 85-ish maps while unlocking the rest of the endgame stuff. Have just started unlocking opus weapons, but mostly just doing maps and farming kills with brave weapons. Anna's numerical advantage is really starting to shine through around here.
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Feb 28, 2018 16:43
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an enemy taht can debuff you isnt a bad threat but fates's ui design was inexplicably terrible and conquest was made by a malfunctioning robot who could only view the world in numbers so every map boiled down to at least two dozen ninjas except when the gimmick specifically didnt allow for ninjas.
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Feb 28, 2018 17:11
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facepalmolive posted:^^^^: I think the AI archers use C1, though maybe they only charge half way? That has some decent range to it, and if your C4 is outranging them, well then Jesus Christ but I can't just aim my golden arrows that well that far out into the distance. How do you even break gauges at that distance? Dive in and C5 or something? facepalmolive posted:Also to expand on this, it feels like Robin's attacks come out faster than Linde's and Elise/Leo's. It could just be a pure perception thing, or I could just be bad at controlling horses. Regardless, faster attack speeds/skills coming out faster = considerably safer for me. Leo and Elise are by far the best at charging up their C1 bar though (though I do occasionally miss the guard-breaking properties of the infantry mages' C1). facepalmolive posted:I do value both! I think for tier list things, I maximize value and consistency while minimizing effort (i.e. maximize 'practical' effectiveness, given how well/poorly I play), though Folt may just optimize for pure value (maximize effectiveness given perfect play) -- for instance, in practice I find much fewer windows of opportunity to use charged archer C1 compared to mage C1. Appreciate the context/heads up, nonetheless! Oboro is probably outdone by Navarre/Lyn (the best infantry sword units in general) and Chrom/Lucina (the best infantry sword duelists in the game), and Linde (mage AKA abusable mechanics) but I think she outdoes everyone else since she has access to lances, the most desirable WT-dependent weapon. Shame about that C4 messing with her dueling capabilities on enemies she can't force yellow gauges on, or she would have made it above the mentioned people, possibly getting to bottom of high tier as well.
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Feb 28, 2018 19:15
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I started playing New Mystery of the Emblem. What are you supposed to do at the end of the prologue when you fight Katarina (Maniac mode)? The thieves don't move until Katarina does, so you have no choice but to let one of your units take a hit from both a thief and Katarina - which literally none of your units can do. I did manage to complete the stage without any deaths (after multiple restarts) only because Katarina and the thief went after separate targets for some indiscernible reason, which feels like some sort of AI failure because they both had the capability to gang up on and kill Marth. So what is the intended solution here?
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Feb 28, 2018 23:27
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Ironically that stage might be easier on lunatic then because of the extra thieves extending the aggro radius I can explain the AI though, and this will be indispensable moving forward. Basically, the enemy has a priority order. The way to figure out that priority order is to put the cursor on the boss, then mash L to cycle through the enemies. The enemies have that priority order, starting with the boss. The enemy move order ends up being: 1) enemies that think they can get a kill, in priority order 2) enemies that can attack you, in priority order. They will each target the unit they think they have the best attack against--this is usually the one with the lowest def/res, but sometimes they'll go for higher accuracy. If you're trying to manipulate this, then make sure the weapon triangle doesn't screw up enemy target selection. 3) enemies that can't attack, in priority order It's hard to say exactly what happened in your situation without seeing the details. It's plausible Katarina is at the bottom of the priority order in this map instead of at the top like bosses are. If that's the case, the thief will run past Marth to target whoever it can do the most damage to. Then, Katarina will move, but she can't go as far as the thief so she can't gang up on his target, and settles for attacking Marth.
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Feb 28, 2018 23:37
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I'm pretty sure Caeda, Cain and Est can all take a hit from both a thief and Katarina.
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Feb 28, 2018 23:40
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That's strange - Katarina definitely attacked first. (Marth was at the very limit of Katarina's range and Cain was one space below him; then Katarina moved up to attack Marth and the thief went after Cain). I don't think Cain gained any levels during the stage, and checking his base stats he definitely would have died if both enemies attacked him - so does the AI just not realize it has the opportunity to kill your units under certain situations? I feel like I need to understand what happened here now or it's probably just going to create more problems later in the playthrough. I never recruited Est. I think Caeda could have survived the boss group's attack, but I didn't field her in my last few attempts because she was overall less useful than Athena.
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Mar 1, 2018 03:59
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Are you sure the thief was capable of hitting Marth in that formation? You may have stumbled into the same technique in reverse. Off the top of my head, a formation where you put Marth at the edge of Katarina's range, then block off the corridor with three units with at least 1 res (i.e., more res than Marth) should work. Katarina will move first and target Marth because she does the most damage to him. Then the thief can't hit Marth so he has to settle for someone else. Basically the way to think of it is this. Unless there is a kill on the board right now, the enemy moves in a set order, and uses a greedy algorithm. You can exploit this by placing your lowest-def unit in a spot only the first enemy can attack, but not the second enemy. cheetah7071 fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Mar 1, 2018 |
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Mar 1, 2018 04:14
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The last few chapters (just finished chapter 12) have had the annoying property that you eliminate all the tension from the map a long while before actually finishing it. I wrapped up chapter 12 on turn 5 but I didn't actually win until turn 13 or so. Chapter 11 wasn't ever really hard but what difficulty it had was gone by turn 4 or 5 while it took much longer to sweep up the treasures and march Marth to the end. Chapter 10 was just sort of pathetic all around, with all difficulty eliminated on turn one.
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Mar 1, 2018 06:42
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Which one is the one where you have an army of wyverns that after X amount of turns each squad starts coming at you? Because apparently Lunatic gives them 1-2 range so I guess that’ll fix your problem. 
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Mar 1, 2018 07:44
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Last Celebration posted:Which one is the one where you have an army of wyverns that after X amount of turns each squad starts coming at you? Because apparently Lunatic gives them 1-2 range so I guess that’ll fix your problem. I'm not entirely sure which chapter you're talking about but chapters 11-14 are dragon land so I'm well acquainted with their 1-2 range Speaking of which one thing I really enjoy about the FE12 lunatic midgame is that any character who joins later than chapter 3 or so isn't going to be viable long term (Phina aside), so you're constantly faced with interesting decisions on the unit select screen. Has Caeda finally stopped being useful? How about Sirius? Jeorge? Minerva? I was reminded about this because Jeorge is the single best unit in your army in chapter 11 because he can survive and counterkill wyverns with parthia, but then three chapters later he's basically worthless. e: it would be nice if characters who joined in the last third of the game were useful for even one chapter though cheetah7071 fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Mar 1, 2018 |
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Mar 1, 2018 07:50
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Endorph posted:an enemy taht can debuff you isnt a bad threat but fates's ui design was inexplicably terrible and conquest was made by a malfunctioning robot who could only view the world in numbers so every map boiled down to at least two dozen ninjas except when the gimmick specifically didnt allow for ninjas. With lunge. Or pass. Sometimes both.
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Mar 1, 2018 12:20
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why is fates' ui so ugly compared to awakening? what a mystery
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Mar 1, 2018 12:26
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I liked the ninjas and hidden weapons for the most part but there were some real bad spots in there. gently caress inevitable end
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Mar 1, 2018 13:20
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Tired Moritz posted:why is fates' ui so ugly compared to awakening? what a mystery Yeah. The really weird thing is that Awakening's UI was better at the things Fates's UI was supposedly designed for too. Easier notes on stat changes, more aesthetically pleasing, all in one page. Just another way Fates screwed up a slow pitch over the plate, I suppose.
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Mar 1, 2018 14:56
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chiasaur11 posted:Yeah. The really weird thing is that Awakening's UI was better at the things Fates's UI was supposedly designed for too. Easier notes on stat changes, more aesthetically pleasing, all in one page. Also, the spouse/child listing. Trying to remember who was paired with who was a nightmare in Revelation. Revelations? Revolution? The worst one.
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Mar 1, 2018 15:52
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Which Fire emblem should I recommend to a person who has never played any of them with the caveat that the person in question doesn't have a 3DS (but can emulate pretty much anything else)?
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Mar 1, 2018 18:53
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7
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Mar 1, 2018 18:53
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Andrast posted:Which Fire emblem should I recommend to a person who has never played any of them with the caveat that the person in question doesn't have a 3DS (but can emulate pretty much anything else)? 7
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Mar 1, 2018 18:54
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Andrast posted:Which Fire emblem should I recommend to a person who has never played any of them with the caveat that the person in question doesn't have a 3DS (but can emulate pretty much anything else)? 7 or 8.
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Mar 1, 2018 18:58
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8
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Mar 1, 2018 19:05
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7, 8, or 9
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Mar 1, 2018 19:11
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69
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Mar 1, 2018 19:18
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7 was designed explicitly to bring westerners into the series, so it would probably be the best.
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Mar 1, 2018 19:20
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PoR, definitely!
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Mar 1, 2018 19:44
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Andrast posted:Which Fire emblem should I recommend to a person who has never played any of them with the caveat that the person in question doesn't have a 3DS (but can emulate pretty much anything else)? Subtitle-less GBA one (7, Blazing Sword), the other GBA one (8, Sacred Stones), or Gamecube one (9, Path of Radiance). It doesn't really make sense to use numbers to refer to Fire Emblems after Radiant Dawn. I declare a boycott on this practice.
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Mar 1, 2018 20:30
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I use numbers for 1, 3, and 7 basically always. The rest I sometimes use names and sometimes numbers
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Mar 1, 2018 20:32
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Andrast posted:3DS (but can emulate pretty much anything else)? EDIT: Yes, quick google away.
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Mar 1, 2018 21:53
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If 3DS emulation ends up being an option, I'd recommend Awakening if they like the RPG part of SRPGs, and a GBA game if they like the S part.
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Mar 1, 2018 21:54
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FE7 is very well rounded, easy to get into, and has some of the better replayability if they ever decide to return to it if they end up exploring other games awakening would also be a good entry point because, well, it was honestly a lot of people's entry point and it's fairly low stress with options to turn off permadeath and the option to grind if you feel uncomfortable with your units levels (though i can't exactly recommend or even say its pleasant, but some people are definitely comforted by the option even if they never use it) and has a bunch of interface improvements from being newer too
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Mar 2, 2018 00:47
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