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deadly_pudding posted:Toriyama's editor giveth and taketh away, mostly. It's also why Androids 19 and 20 were rapidly shuffled from this mortal coil. EX editor. It wasn't even the one he actually worked with at the time, he just still respected the previous guy so much that he was willing to make sweeping changes to his story based on passing comments from the guy.
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Apr 24, 2018 14:02
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Flytrap posted:EX editor. It wasn't even the one he actually worked with at the time, he just still respected the previous guy so much that he was willing to make sweeping changes to his story based on passing comments from the guy. Bit of column A, bit of column B. If I remember correctly, Torishima complained about the numbered Androids, but it was his actual editor (Yu Kondou, I think?) that disliked Cell's first and second forms thus Toriyama had Cell take his Perfect Form far earlier than intended (if it was even intended at all). Also, it should be noted that Torishima is very much half of why Dragon Ball became as good as it did. Toriyama is a gigantic genius who creates manga on two out of seven days of the week (compare to the incredibly overworked usual mangaka schedule) but he's also a gigantic lazy poo poo that leaves everything to said two days. Torishima kept him working, lied to him about him being able to stop just so he'd continue, and basically put him into Dragon Quest without ever telling him. He was the Piccolo to Toriyama's Gohan.
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Apr 24, 2018 14:11
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Blaze Dragon posted:Also, it should be noted that Torishima is very much half of why Dragon Ball became as good as it did. Toriyama is a gigantic genius who creates manga on two out of seven days of the week (compare to the incredibly overworked usual mangaka schedule) but he's also a gigantic lazy poo poo that leaves everything to said two days. Torishima kept him working, lied to him about him being able to stop just so he'd continue, and basically put him into Dragon Quest without ever telling him. He was the Piccolo to Toriyama's Gohan. Which is funny when his Dr.Slump counterpart gets Hakai'd by Beerus.
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Apr 24, 2018 14:37
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Blaze Dragon posted:Bit of column A, bit of column B. If I remember correctly, Torishima complained about the numbered Androids, but it was his actual editor (Yu Kondou, I think?) that disliked Cell's first and second forms thus Toriyama had Cell take his Perfect Form far earlier than intended (if it was even intended at all).
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Apr 24, 2018 15:51
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TheLoneStar posted:Looking back at the Android/Cell Sagas, they worked pretty well considering the an editor and ex-editor kept the sagas changing and rushed all the way through until Perfect Cell. The Android/Cell Saga was a mess and the worst saga. It added basically nothing to world building or any characters development. They could have skipped the entire saga, went straight to Buu, and no one would have noticed narratively. Only thing that redeems it is the reuse of time travel for the Goku Black arc.
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Apr 24, 2018 16:46
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Pureauthor posted:The whole Goku Black arc in the manga was so disappointing. Especially compared to the anime itself. the middle section was better in the manga imo
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Apr 24, 2018 17:10
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Stairmaster posted:the middle section was better in the manga imo It really wasn't. The only thing the manga really improved upon was showing Trunks beating Dabura and Babidi and even that only reminded us that Shin, no matter what or when, will always be Shin. Actually, no, it did let Shin be actually slightly competent, which was weird but enjoyable. Not extremely competent, this is Shin, but surprisingly more competent than usual. Also Mario Kart was nice but it's not like the anime lacked bonding moments.
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Apr 24, 2018 17:17
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Rutibex posted:The Android/Cell Saga was a mess and the worst saga. It added basically nothing to world building or any characters development. They could have skipped the entire saga, went straight to Buu, and no one would have noticed narratively. Androids/ Cell were really good when it was almost a quasi-horror deal where this unknown force is just going to... Appear and has to be tracked down. Then Cell just becomes another attractive evil villain and it peters out.
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Apr 24, 2018 17:27
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Rutibex posted:The Android/Cell Saga was a mess and the worst saga. It added basically nothing to world building or any characters development. They could have skipped the entire saga, went straight to Buu, and no one would have noticed narratively. Nah, it's the most development adult Goku ever gets, reaching his limits (at the time), peaking with grace and stepping aside to make way for the next generation. Similarly Gohan overcomes his longstanding insecurities and finally rises to the occasion as Goku's son and successor. If anything it's the Buu saga which ignored the character development of the Android/Cell sagas to go 'lol nope Gohan still sucks, Goku is the hero forever'
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Apr 24, 2018 18:32
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The Buu saga had the most character development for Gohan in the whole series. Then Buu showed up.
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Apr 24, 2018 18:42
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multijoe posted:Nah, it's the most development adult Goku ever gets, reaching his limits (at the time), peaking with grace and stepping aside to make way for the next generation. Similarly Gohan overcomes his longstanding insecurities and finally rises to the occasion as Goku's son and successor. If anything it's the Buu saga which ignored the character development of the Android/Cell sagas to go 'lol nope Gohan still sucks, Goku is the hero forever' I wouldn’t say they threw it away, Gohan still had the potential to become strong but didn’t need to because it was peaceful. And with Super Buu being the cheating monster that he was nothing short of Vegetto was ultimately going to beat him.
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Apr 24, 2018 18:53
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Blaze Dragon posted:It really wasn't. Yeah but the fight scenes looked better and they only went to the future twice instead of thrice. Plus we got to see super saiyan goku black
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Apr 24, 2018 19:08
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regardless of how you feel about it, androids/cell saga have a ton of characterization for vegeta. gohan, piccolo, krillin, and goku all get some too off the top of my head
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Apr 24, 2018 19:20
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Piccolo fused with Kami which was a thing I guess but that honestly didn’t have much of an effect on his character so what was his?
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Apr 24, 2018 19:23
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his actually deciding to fuse with kami in the first place was the change in his character. his making GBS threads on goku during the cell games was some characterization for himself, goku, and gohan too. tho it was more about the latter two than it was himself
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Apr 24, 2018 19:29
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Not really? That is not inconsistent with how he acted at the end of the Saiyan Saga.
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Apr 24, 2018 19:32
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the kami thing absolutely is
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Apr 24, 2018 19:34
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Piccolo fusing with people is a metaphor for his accepting responsibility. When he fuses with Nail, that's him accepting as part of himself his Namekian heritage. Likewise when he fuses with Kami: he recognizes that he has a responsibility to help protect the people of earth, because that's his home. Losing to perfect cell a couple episodes later dampens the impact a little, but piccolo vs. 17 is still one of my favorite fights in the series https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4168CwVgYV0
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Apr 24, 2018 19:37
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Cell Saga has Tien's final moment of glory so it's cool.
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Apr 24, 2018 19:42
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To be honest the only real character moments in the Cell saga are Goku ( which amounts to nothing but that’s not the sagas fault) and Vegeta. Granted Vegeta kind of repeats his arc every arc so you aren’t missing much. Gohan is there to but it kind of comes out of left field with no build up.
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Apr 24, 2018 19:45
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Waffleman_ posted:Cell Saga has Tien's final moment of glory so it's cool. Tien saved Mr Satan from Super Buu. Seeing as Mr Satan was critical to defeating Buu, than means Tien saved the entire universe 
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Apr 24, 2018 19:59
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vegeta does not repeat his character arc every time. I don't think he ever does? saiyan saga vegeta doesn't have an arc, freeza you get his back story and why he hates freeza, android is him coming to appreciate his son, buu is has a midlife crisis and eventual acceptance that goku is better than him. like the crux of it all is his pride in himself but that's not the same thing as a repeated character arc
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Apr 24, 2018 20:36
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I think what gets old about Vegeta real quick is him making things worse again and again because he has to prove that his power level peen is bigger than everybody else's. And that's something he does constantly throughout Z from the Saiyan Saga all the way to the Buu Saga.
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Apr 24, 2018 20:52
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tbf goku does the same thing and vegeta never really makes things worse by doing that in the saiyan/freeza saga
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Apr 24, 2018 20:58
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Manatee Cannon posted:tbf goku does the same thing and vegeta never really makes things worse by doing that in the saiyan/freeza saga Vegeta mostly gets a bad rap for making things worse from letting Cell go perfect and being mostly responsible for releasing Buu. Would Goku have let Cell go perfect if he was the first one out of the chamber? Maybe. Probably? He'd want to fight a stronger Cell but he probably wouldn't want Cell killing/absorbing people to do it?
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Apr 24, 2018 21:11
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Honestly, Shin should bear the most responsibility for releasing Buu. He's just so bad at his job.
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Apr 24, 2018 21:19
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Waffleman_ posted:Honestly, Shin should bear the most responsibility for releasing Buu. He's just so bad at his job. Shin would've never been in that situation if Beerus had destroyed Buu before Buu ate the rest of the Kaioshins. Shin still grossly hosed up his job and made a situation several times worse than it needed to be by misjudging literally everything, but if Beerus wasn't a lazy cat, Universe 7 would've never reached a situation where it had to depend on the least competent (second least? Roh was kind of poo poo too) Kaioshin ever.
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Apr 24, 2018 21:42
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Blaze Dragon posted:Shin would've never been in that situation if Beerus had destroyed Buu before Buu ate the rest of the Kaioshins.
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Apr 24, 2018 21:44
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TheLoneStar posted:Yeah, people like to poo poo on Shin constantly, but he pretty much doesn't do anything wrong. And even what he does do wrong is directly because Beerus is a far shittier diety. He clearly does not take his duties seriously. The guy didn't even know there was a higher tier of gods above him, how do you miss that? He is millions of years old but couldn't stop loving around for 5 minutes to learn anything about his job.
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Apr 24, 2018 22:00
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Rutibex posted:He clearly does not take his duties seriously. The guy didn't even know there was a higher tier of gods above him, how do you miss that? He is millions of years old but couldn't stop loving around for 5 minutes to learn anything about his job.
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Apr 24, 2018 22:03
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I don’t see how someone else being incompetent means anything to shins incompetent.
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Apr 24, 2018 22:06
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But he isn't incompetent. The dude has basically had to do the job of five people all by himself for millions of years, including the Grand Supreme Kai. At least that's what the assumption would be, who else would stand in for the four dead Supreme Kais?
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Apr 24, 2018 22:09
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The other universe get along fine with 1. Hell they do better.
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Apr 24, 2018 22:10
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I'm pretty sure that was Toriyama forgetting there's supposed to be five Supreme Kais. And it was outright said that it was Beerus' fault that Universe 7 is as low on the Universe ladder as it is. Same with Universe 6 and Champa.
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Apr 24, 2018 22:12
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You can’t go Meta on this and count Beerus.
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Apr 24, 2018 22:13
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Go watch the beginning of Buu and tell me Shin was ever right about anything he ever did.
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Apr 24, 2018 22:25
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I'm more curious as to what he did wrong. I've seen people bitch about him for months and never give any details about it.
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Apr 24, 2018 22:27
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Momomo posted:Go watch the beginning of Buu and tell me Shin was ever right about anything he ever did. I mean, in Future Trunks' timeline Majin Buu was never resurrected because he had more limited but more effective pool of people to recruit to help defeat Dabura and Babidi. In terms of strength he went to the right people from the start and it's their fault more than his that things turned out so badly.
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Apr 24, 2018 22:33
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Nep-Nep posted:I mean, in Future Trunks' timeline Majin Buu was never resurrected because he had more limited but more effective pool of people to recruit to help defeat Dabura and Babidi. In terms of strength he went to the right people from the start and it's their fault more than his that things turned out so badly. EDIT: Hell, there's no reason Goku couldn't have Instant Transmission'd his way to Babidi's personal lair and snapped the little fucker's neck. TheLoneStar fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Apr 24, 2018 |
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Apr 24, 2018 22:40
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Momomo posted:Go watch the beginning of Buu and tell me Shin was ever right about anything he ever did. he was right that spopovich and the other guy would siphon energy off of gohan! that's all I got offhand
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Apr 24, 2018 22:44
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